Marcel Trahan:

Yes, that is what (G7.90) means. None of the restrictions in (G7.91), (G7.94), or (G7.98) apply to a base with active positional stabilizers. The fact that it may be held in a tractor beam by an enemy or a friendly unit does not prevent it from using its own tractors to tractor another unit (whether enemy or friendly), or fire its weapons (to include launching seeking weapons) and can still launch a wild weasel even though held in a tractor beam.

A dummy mine is a dummy mine. Its location is never secret (it only works if placed y transporter, and everyone knows where a mine placed by a transporter is if they were able to detect that transporter operation at the time. A dummy mine rolled out the hatch is just a waste of effort as it does not operate at all.

So all your opponent knows is that various things have moved next to (or even over) a "mine" that was placed by transporter. He does not know if the "mine" is failing to go off because it was not set to detonate on what has already moved past it (the size class triggers) or because the right number of units have not moved past it yet (the target count), or if it is a dummy. The ONLY ways he can learn if it was a dummy or not is if it detonated (yep, it was a real one, not a dummy) or if he has exhausted all of the trigger elements (moved six units of every size class, which might entail in some cases some unit moving past it multiple times into its trigger zone). You can as he moves next to your "T-bomb" "consult your records, and tsk and say "nope, did not go off." And he might "sweep it." But otherwise it just sits there as a mystery.

Will it go bang? Or won't it?

By Marcel Trahan (Devilish6996) on Tuesday, January 21, 2020 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Thanks Steve for the clarification.

Appreciated

Marcel

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Marceel Trahan:

It should be noted that the exemptions for bases has to do with their operations. A given base might have multiple tractor beams tied up in keeping ships docked to it, and might have ships docked to it using their own tractor beams to maintain the dock. So it (for example) needs a prohibition on such tractor links (whether enemy or friendly) from preventing it from launching a wild weasel or plasma empires could get relatively cheap kills on such bases, which in turn would mean the base would have to pour most of its power into negative tractor in the face of that threat. Not being able to maneuver, they are otherwise sitting ducks for an "Anchor attack."

I will point out that in the "Early" editions of the Star Fleet Battles, very small bases lacked positional stabilizers, and some nefarious Orion captain developed the habit of pushing orbiting commercial platforms "out of orbit." There were two reasons for this:

A: Drag the whole commercial platform away from the planetary defense grid to loot at leisure.

B. Push the commercial platform into the planet so that the arriving police/naval ship had to tractor it and pull it back, allowing the pirate ship to make its escape.

(The bounty on my head was doubtless rather large because of my penchant for such unorthodox solutions to problems.)

By Frank Lemay (Princeton) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 06:55 pm: Edit

SPP,
To clarify a TB shoved out the shuttle bay door.
Can you actually shove out a dummy TB via the shuttle bay door or does the TB have to be a real TB, ie, no dummy TB allowed to be shoved out the shuttle bay doors.

Thanks.

Cheers
Frank

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Frank Lemay:

You can lay a dummy T-bomb out the hatch, but it does nothing if used in such a way. It will not even reduce the damage of an ESG that runs over it.

From (M3.224): "Dummy T-bombs will not function (i.e., will not fool anyone) if dropped rather than transported."

From (G23.617): "Dummy T-bombs deployed by transporter will reduce an ESG by one point (M3.224), but if not activated by being transported will not affect an ESG, i.e., a dummy T-bomb dropped out of a hatch is inert material and does not interact with the ESG."

By Frank Lemay (Princeton) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 07:19 pm: Edit

SPP,
So you can shove out a dummy TB via the shuttle bay doors and the enemy will not know its a dummy until he runs into it.
This is what I am trying to understand.

Does the enemy know the TB just shoved out the shuttle bay doors is indeed a dummy or does he have to find out the natural way, get into its detection zone to find out if its a fake or not ?

Thanks.

Cheers
Frank

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 08:01 pm: Edit

SPP said it does not fool anyone. That means the enemy is not fooled.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 08:32 pm: Edit

Frank, it's just my gut saying this, but if you're playing with the secret placement rule (M2.6), the enemy won't even know ANYthing has been layed in the hex of a dummy T-bomb, regardless of whether they run into it or not.

If you're NOT plaing with the secret placement rule, then yeah, I'd guess your opponent would know there's SOMEthing there, but won't know if you've rolled out a dummy or a real one, just like if you placed it with transporter.

(... Aaaand I have to again throw out my disclaimer that I don't work for ADB, Inc.; I'm just another fan of the greatest starship combat game EVER... )

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 09:26 pm: Edit

I am confused as to where your confusion is coming from, SPP said very clearly that if laid out the hatch, the dummy does nothing; it does not fool anyone.

You might challenge his statement I suppose, but to quote rules without even acknowledging that you are contradicting him seems wrong to me.

By Frank Lemay (Princeton) on Wednesday, January 22, 2020 - 09:47 pm: Edit

hmm,
As I read over the last few posts, I see I am completely out in left field !
I now understand.
No need to reply SPP.

Thanks.

Cheers
Frank

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Thursday, January 23, 2020 - 06:15 pm: Edit

AS a long time Romulan player. With the old WE, KE, and Snipe. I loved hidden mines. However the players I played against hated them. So I had to lay out my mines on the map. Well It helped as the mine I laid could be the NSM are a T-bomb. However I started dropping Dummy T-bombs. They would avoid them of course and then allow me to lay the real mines. They called Foul but I told them if I can not have hidden mines then I should at least get to lay Dummy mines to fool you.

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, January 23, 2020 - 06:45 pm: Edit

Agreed, the whole point of dummies is to keep people guessing about what you laid. If the mines are on the map for rolling them out the hatch, then dummies should work then as well.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, January 23, 2020 - 07:25 pm: Edit

As the rules state, a dummy mine does nothing. If you roll it out the hatch, it is not placed on the map, because if it was "it would be fooling" your opponent, And (M3.224)'s text is plain: "Dummy T-bombs will not function (i.e., will not fool anyone) if dropped rather than transported."

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Thursday, January 23, 2020 - 09:49 pm: Edit

I am not disagreeing with what the rules state. I am giving my opinion on how they work.

In my opinion, if you are not using hidden mines, then you should have the option to lay dummies out the hatch, otherwise it unfairly limits the use of t-bombs.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, January 23, 2020 - 10:17 pm: Edit

You can make your house rules if you like and if your opponent agrees, but otherwise the rules of SFB are pretty set in stone by now, I'd think.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Thursday, January 23, 2020 - 10:22 pm: Edit

Agreed, you can already do a bit of trickery with the rules as they are.

By Marcel Trahan (Devilish6996) on Friday, January 24, 2020 - 02:38 pm: Edit

Hi Steve, i have a question regarding tractor/mines/Death dragging and Sequence of Play

Is a ship moving at high speed (20+) tractors a shuttle and it the next impulse, the ship moves and pushes the shuttle within the detection range of a mine set for SC 6. Does the shuttle gets death dragged (destroyed) before or after it will trigger the mine?

The Sequence of play specifies that in 6A2: Determine, but do not resolve, any damage caused by movement while 6A3 does not specifies where the damage/destruction by death dragging happens.

The Sequence of Play is not clear as to where the destruction by death dragging happens (not listed in step 6A2 or 6A3)

This could also apply to ESG's.

Marcel

By Nick Blank (Nickgb) on Friday, January 24, 2020 - 02:57 pm: Edit

See rule (G7.541). The shuttle is destroyed when the dragging ship moves, and it is destroyed in the hex it occupied before the movement. So in your example, the shuttle never enters the mine's detection range, the mine is not detonated by the shuttle.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, January 24, 2020 - 03:20 pm: Edit

Marcel Trahan:

Nick Blank is correct.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Friday, January 24, 2020 - 06:18 pm: Edit

I was not saying that the rule was wrong. I know what the rules say about mines. As secret placement is a Optional rule. That leaves the drop he sees the mine and knows it is not fake.

It is like Federation players I played back in the day. Every Federation ship had a legendary weapons officer and ECM was not used. Go figure.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, January 24, 2020 - 07:26 pm: Edit

I don't advocate bargaining to get your opponents to change the rules for you, but YMMV.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, January 25, 2020 - 05:45 am: Edit

It is I would play more tourney games. When they allow only one WW per game.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, January 25, 2020 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Observation: The game assumes that you are not playing with hidden NSMs and T-bombs when dropped out of the hatch, and that reality is what is factored into the combat system. Using the Optional Hidden Placement Rule means an advantage accrues to the Romulans (even if they never lay the NSM or they wind up laying it someplace where their opponent never "finds" it, they gain the advantage of uncertainty because their opponent must always be thinking about it as a possibility ... unless they have already run into it, which will affect their tactical thinking and maneuvers) that they pay no penalty for.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Sunday, January 26, 2020 - 01:17 pm: Edit

Daniel Eastland for the U2.0 campaigns:

CL38 - No changes
CL39 - Clarifications on early years; Hydran, Lyran, ISC listings.
CL42 - Updates for R12.
CL44 - E4 Integrations.
CL45 - Borak integrations.
CL48 - CL39, 42, 44 & 45 plus Module C6.

Hope this helps.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Sunday, January 26, 2020 - 04:07 pm: Edit

Steve Petric,

I have purchased the latest Module F1, The Jindarians. I've heard discussions on this site that the Jindarian Rock Ship may carry Bombers. I also remember hearing that this was not allowed. Never-the-less, to my surprise, the Rule Book lists three ways for Jindarians to carry Bombers. This is the R16.FB section. Internal Bays, External Bays, and Construction Bay Bombers are detailed.

The first sentence says: "The Jindrians were the only race able to operate bombers from ships, but only because their ships were (in every sense)
asteroids (S8.324A)".

What say you?

Thank you.

John