That was why i said you could use a enveloper turn 1. Are fire both a S and a F. Still leaving you with 50 points of plasma. Also i was assuming no mid turn speed changes. So turn two he has to eat it, Emergency deceleration are go speed 0 all turn. So that he can throw out the wild weasel. Throw more after the weasel is over. Turn 3 he will be speed 10 are missing shields are both and never get to range 8. Turn 1 torps are reloaded for turn 4. Timing is the hard part as any plasma player will tell you.

Mid turn speed changes make it real hard to use this tactic. Even harder in a King eagle. Of course the gorn can launch two suicide shuttles on the over run when the other ship is at speed 0 and out of weasels.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, October 13, 2015 - 09:46 pm: Edit

>>Yeah, I don't really like the real/pseudo mix on turn 1. Both real torps leaves you exposed to a stop and weasel since you won't have enough firepower left afterward. One real and one fake doesn't do enough damage, as the attacker can just plow through them without taking any internals. Both fake ... well, if the attacker just plows through them, that's even worse.>>

I used S+S on T1 for a while as the Gorn; it was probably 70% of the time real+fake, 20% of the time both fake, 10% of the time both real. Most of the time, the opponent was not willing to just crash both S torps, even if they were reasonably certain that at least one was fake, especially as it probably wasn't going to get them R8 anyway. Really good opponents would, if they could get R8 (and had overloaded something), phaser the likely pseudo, eat it on a flank, not take internals, and then shoot, but that usually only happened if I made a mistake in maneuver anyway (i.e. letting them get R8).

I won a few games by someone calling my bluff on 2 real S torps and just ramming them. I won a few games by launching 2 pseudos and having my opponent run from them (including the final for Co5N a couple years back and one of my games to win the Platinum Hat the first time). Lost some games by someone calling my bluff on 2 fake S torps.

S+S on T1 can work out ok. That being said, the T1 enveloper is just vastly more consistent--no one has to gamble on a guess, so generally works better. That, and the exhausted end of the enveloper on T2 is still gonna score a little damage, where the standard S isn't (an enveloper at 24 hexes still does 10 damage; a standard at 24 just does 5 and will be vaporized by a couple P3s). So I usually use a T1 enveloper these days.

By Robert W. Schirmer (Rwschirmer) on Sunday, January 03, 2016 - 10:39 am: Edit

For those interested, I posted updates to my tournament statistics and predictions at my site. Scroll down for links to the various files.

Robert

By Marc Elwinger (Blades) on Wednesday, December 14, 2016 - 05:01 pm: Edit

Dumb question, but Which ships are abreviated WBS and GBS?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, December 14, 2016 - 05:24 pm: Edit

Mark Elwinger:

The WYN Black Shark/Great Black Shark is the WYN Fish ship tournament cruiser based on the Charcarodon heavy cruiser found in Module C3.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, April 10, 2017 - 04:27 pm: Edit

So Majead wrote:
>>Well to me this ship is too dependent on hitting with a min 3 out of 4 heavy weapons if not the 4. Anything less than 3 hits against the caliber of players you play against is equal to a loss. >>

Yeah, as noted in the other thread, the Fed really generally needs to shoot at R8 or R1-2. At R8, expected damage is 32+12 (assuming non centerlined) for 44. Which, unless your opponent has a huge brick, is a down shield and some internals, and you probably aren't getting shot back much, if at all. And if you luck out and hit with 3, you likely do significant internals (20+) and are in the driver's seat for the rest of the game. If you miss (i.e. 0-1), you are behind some, but, well, aren't gonna get killed immediately and have a turn to run and make a game of it.

R4 is, I suspect, the worst Fed range. You are not at all unlikely to hit with 2 or fewer photons (I'm always bad at probability off the top of my head, but isn't "I hit with 2 or fewer photons at R4" something like 40%?). And you are really close to your opponent, and at that point, if you don't hit with at least 3, you are probably done for. Like, if you have a shot on a back shield at R4, taking that is fine. Or if it is a late game exchange, and you are both kind of beat up and listing, R4 isn't horrible. But for the initial shot, I think R4 is the least attractive shot.

>>I'm open to suggestions on a good balanced ship not too dependent on rolls. I have had some success with the WYN BS and Klingon.>>

Hydran isn't particularly dice dependent. I mean, yeah, the HBs can roll boxcars and miss, but if you miss with a HB, you are usually still ok.

Romulan can do fine only ever rolling dice for phasers. Gorn is a little more dependent on bolt shots, I'd say.

If you play Kzinti like a seeking weapon, and only arm disruptors at R1, not much dice variance to worry about.

The WAX with HBs (maybe, like, HHbD or HbDg) or whatever is pretty forgiving of dice.

Archeo Tholian can do fine with limited disruptor fire, but you need to be really cagey with the web casting.

By Andrew J Koch (Droid) on Monday, April 10, 2017 - 04:45 pm: Edit

There are many ships out there who can take your R4 48 from photons plus phasers and just turn in and kill you really hard.


Ideally you want to fire at range 8 on an oblique on I32, or at range 1 to remove all doubt.
Still, the Fed isn't something you play if you're sensitive to soul crushing bad beats...

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Monday, April 10, 2017 - 05:03 pm: Edit

Range 1 is actually pretty shaky, imo. That 16 feedback, is like shooting yourself in the face with an OL. With that added on, most ships can do as much damage to you, as you do to them. Especially if they have seeking weapons that tie up some of your phasers on the way in.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Monday, April 10, 2017 - 06:08 pm: Edit

Dice, well all ships are effected by bad rolls one way or another.
The Federation TCC is a big ship it can take some punishment, I find a good option can be to fire only one or two of the photons at a time plus phasers (depending on range and enemy ship).
If you fire two at range eight and turn off, you still have two of the photons left to help against a late over run by the enemy ship.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, April 10, 2017 - 06:42 pm: Edit

R2 seems kind of optimal to me--you have a reasonable chance of 4 hits; will probably hit with 3. Your phasers do a lot of damage. You don't shoot yourself in the face for 16.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Monday, April 10, 2017 - 10:10 pm: Edit

Yes range two is good.

By Andrew J Koch (Droid) on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 10:26 am: Edit

A few years ago Paul Scott came out to Council and won with the Fed.
Wasn't his whole thing getting to R2 ?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 11:45 am: Edit

That's certainly where he shot me. And then I got to R1, tractored him, launched all my plasmas, and immediately lost my second tractor to a mizia volley from a phaser or two 'cause all my facing phasers were gone. And lost. So yeah, R2 can work.

By David Zimdars (Zimdarsdavid) on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 01:40 pm: Edit

As a side hypothesis, observationally it seems to me that R3 and R1 DF exchanges are substantially more common than R2 (or R0). By this I not only mean that the R2 shot is held because the other ship can force R1; but actually that jumps from R3 to R1 also seem common. I haven't worked this out for all approaches on a map, but it seems like it could be due to the following factors:

1)Need for FA approach;
2)Great likelihood of simultaneous movement above speed (10?);
3)Effect of slip mode;
4)Ken Lin's rabbit vs hound and semi-oblique observations;
5)others

For the Fed, an oblique exchange at R2 on front shields with 4x16phot and 6P1 is only about a 48% proposition against a fresh untouched opponent because with 3 hits it will only do ~45 internals in a single volley, which is not enough to burn through the shuttles and get to any weapon and significant power (which is why Peter says a R4 shot is event worse). Via the anti-Mizia effect, the Fed's opponent will still have a lot of charged weapons the next impulse even if he held. Centerlining vs. a fresh opponent seems dicey as the Fed loses his #1, and now has a hard time pursuing. Perhaps the Fed wants to hold onto his 16ptrs until after he's buttered up the front shields with phasers on prior turns. A R2 centerline shot on a weakened shield will burn through the shuttles and eat up weapons and power immediately ever time.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Quote: Perhaps the Fed wants to hold onto his 16ptrs until after he's buttered up the front shields with phasers on prior turns:

That is why I think you should fire only one or two of the photons at a time (depending on the ship) plus phasers.

I think against the smaller hull ship you can get to range two or even range one (it would be best to fire one photon and two phaser-1s on the way in, these may be lost from enemy fire as you close), at range one that's about 78 points of damage, which puts an end to the small hull tournament ships.

By Stephen McCann (Moose) on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 07:13 pm: Edit

IMO firing 2 photons at a time is just asking to be run over and killed. Firing 2 photons at range 8 will yield an expected damage of 28 points, enough to dent a shield but not really hurt the opponent. Then you have little deterrent to being run over.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Tuesday, April 11, 2017 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Well If the Fed fires at range 8. Either gets lucky and jackpots,hits average with 2 are misses them all. The trick is to be set up to get away reloading photons and phasers? Then slow way down with either overloads are standered loads. Using shuttles to help vs the overrun. Feds that I play against in Patrol battles tend to put up a scatter pack and ECM during that time.

I am one who says the FED TC needs that drone rack with half ADD and Drones.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 08:30 am: Edit

Yeah, I'm generally also of the opinion that as a main strategy, the "fire 2 and 2" photons plan gets you killed. Like, later in the game after the initial strike and the game is dicey and scrappy, sure. But on the first shot, probably not the best plan. Even at R8.

Like, if you luck out and hit with both at R8, sure, you are at the exact same spot as if you fired all 4 and did average. And then still have 2 more photons! But really, the expected outcome is about 28 damage, which isn't doing much, and then your opponent is gonna chase you, catch you, and the 2 extra photons at R1 isn't likely to save you.

Re: the g-rack. We tried it (g-rack with 4xADD and 2x IM, no changes or reloads) many times at Council. It was fine. I don't know that it made a huge difference most games (that was the tournament that Paul won the Fed with, but the last 2 games of his run were both against Gorns, where the single drone was mostly irrelevant). Like, it certainly isn't likely to push the ship into wildly overpowered territory. It'll help some against drone ships (which it has trouble against), save a phaser, soak up a P3 or point of tractor power. I think it is mostly a reasonable inclusion, but unlikely to have a huge impact on the ship.

By Andrew J Koch (Droid) on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Gregory: You're always wanting your first shot to be everything you've got. After that first exchange, you usually dont have the power to repeat it, so you fire what you can.


Also, not all R8 shots are created equal.
The trick with Range 8 is a shot on Impulse X-32 wit a decent escape vector. This isn't all that hard given that a fully loaded Fed can push folks around the map some.
IF you can get it on a rear shield great. Except nowadays all the grognards are too cagey to give you that shot, so don't count on it.
No matter how well you connive your shot though, the dice are still a huge factor.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 10:12 pm: Edit

Yes You always want your first shot to be everything you've got. You also want the other guy to not get the best shot he can get. There are times when You will take a lesser shot because your lesser shot is better then his lesser shot.

point blank with 4 overloaded photons and phasers on a Hydran with fully loaded fusions and gats and phasers. My money is on the Hydran. Are a gorn with 100 points of plasma you will eat. Take the range 8 shot... hope for the lucky shot pray for the average shot. Plan to pull out and reload with weasels hot.

Just some thoughts,No matter how well you connive your shot though, the dice are still a huge factor. That is why I perfer Plasma are fusions they HIT.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 08:24 am: Edit

>>point blank with 4 overloaded photons and phasers on a Hydran with fully loaded fusions and gats and phasers. My money is on the Hydran.>>

Heh--Proper and Evans just did this, and the Hydran won. The Hydran shot with some guns at R2, and then they got to R0. The Fed did, like, 90 internals to the Hydran and took, like, 70 back, but then the two unharmed Stingers on the board killed the Fed, as the Fed was going to slow to avoid them (for various kooky reasons, but still).

By Andrew J Koch (Droid) on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 10:51 am: Edit

Proper just pretended the fighters weren't a thing..
Sounds about right....

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Thursday, April 13, 2017 - 05:36 pm: Edit

Remember the fed shoots itself for 16 in feed back. Also I am going with the Fed having to shoot a couple of Suicide shuttles that have just been launched.. Then there is teh fighters as well.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 05:28 pm: Edit

The best part was when Proper, very confidently announced, "I'm going to blow you up".

By Chris Proper (Duke) on Saturday, April 15, 2017 - 08:50 pm: Edit

Given that the proximity fuse was a mistake, blowing up the Hydran was the only way to avoid the fighters.