Well just by comparison of the CA/CC to the new CX it’s obvious that this is much more than just a simple conversion.

The entire saucer has a different pattern of plating and seems to be enlarged (comparing slope and angle of plating). The command area seems to be larger.

While the upgraded dish is easily explained the shape of the secondary hull is completely different. The neck connection between the saucer and secondary is completely new.

And while I love the engines (and wish many of its designs were included as the BC years back), the big changes are that they have been dropped below the saucer (front/rear view) and they are swept back (top view), creating a massive new entry point/angle and design internal to the secondary structure.

I do love the look of this ship but I struggle with how you roll up a Connie and get this result without starting over at the keel.

Yes I am aware FASA did something similar.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Sunday, February 09, 2020 - 12:34 pm: Edit

The conversion of a CA/CC to CX costs 6 EPs, almost as much as building a CA from scratch. The Feds do silly things; compare the changes between the refit Enterprise to the one from TOS and we are to believe they are the same ship structurally.

By Mark Hutton (Trynda1701) on Sunday, February 09, 2020 - 02:17 pm: Edit

Thanks for that explanation, Alan.

So, does that mean the CX has advanced engines, with the above listed tactical AND strategic 'fast warp' bonuses?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, February 09, 2020 - 02:45 pm: Edit

It wouldn't surpise me if conversions of existing CAs did not have some of the more drastic visual changes. Perhaps it comes at a price that isn't seen at the tactical or strategic level in the games we play (perhaps more liable to maintainence issues or length of service issues).

By Will McCammon (Djdood) on Sunday, February 09, 2020 - 03:27 pm: Edit

The X-tech has some pretty big impacts on things like strategic speeds in F&E, etc. I'd imagine the big "get" about those speeds was range and maintainability (things that are subsumed into the games' simulation).

The pre-war "fast" ships burned a lot of fuel to zip around like that and were likely maintenance hogs as well. The X-tech ships were a radically new and refined set of technologies (based partly on new uses of rare materials). I'd say the x-ships could comfortably and reliably *cruise* at speeds the fast ships wore themselves out maintaining and could zip at high strategic speeds without needing lots of engineers tuning it up at every other starbase.

For the franchise movie Enterprise and the ADB CX, my own interpretation is that the change in technologies (for the engines *and* almost every other system) means making one via conversion means going down to the basic substructure, the primary load-bearing members and modifying even some of them.

The framework core of the saucer, dorsal neck, and engineering hull strongback (which is the structural "heart" of the ship, regardless of generation) would be retained, but then built out almost completely new. The hullform would be tweaked to best embody the needed shape and "warp dynamics".

With that skeleton in place, I'd assume the "guts" that would then get hung on it would mostly be new. New power systems and conduits, new computers and data networks, new versions of all the weapons and their services, new laboratories, etc.

The end result is effectively a new-build ship, with some components and materials "up-cycled" from an old one.

Not an efficient way to build a fleet, but is often how things happen with new generations of technology. The earliest testbeds and prototypes are often old vehicles with new systems "grafted" in. As the designers and engineers gain experience, they realize the vehicle needs to change form to best use the new tech. This often leads to successive rebuilds of the early examples, getting further and further from the starting design.

The earliest jet fighters looked like what they were; propeller airplanes that had jet engines grafted into them. Later, airplanes built around the jet engines, but with the straight wings and rounded tails of propeller planes. Later-still, swept wings and tails on "area-ruled" fuselage jet planes, that took full advantage of the form. All that was sometimes done to one rapidly-evolving airplane, with sometimes quite a few examples already in-service and being rebuilt.

I don't think the degree of radical rebuild for the CX conversions was the Federation designers' intent. It was more just what ended up happening, as the proper way to embody the new technologies was learned by doing. The pivot to new builds didn't take long once the lessons were learned.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Sunday, February 09, 2020 - 07:22 pm: Edit

I suppose an XTP is also converted at 2:1 so could be considered a higher form of economics and thus a higher cost than a new construction cruiser at 8, 9 or even 10 (BC).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, February 09, 2020 - 09:13 pm: Edit

From a background perspective, it's noted that the Federation started by converting the heavy command cruiser [(R2.76) from SFB Module R5] NCC-1749 USS Vincennes to advanced technology. According to John Sickels' relevant article in Captain's Log #52, all subsequent CXs, from NCC-1771 USS Revolution onwards, were built as new construction. That same article notes that all of the CBs had themselves been new construction, rather than being converted out of CAs or CCs - so the Vincennes was itself already a half-step removed from its forebears even before it was used as an advanced technology testbed.

What did happen, however, was that certain older ships were refitted with partial-X systems (most notably X-batteries, though they are more limited in using them than a "true" X-ship would be), though even this was by no means universal.

-----

From a logistical standpoint, the advent of first-generation advanced technology marked the kind of changes which the Alpha Octant empires had not seen arguably since the onset of tactical warp drive itself.

Consider that when the first W-era (GURPS Prime Directive Tech Level 10) ships were being fielded, the empires involved now found themselves needing not only to establish a means of acquiring, storing, and safely transferring enough antimatter supplies to keep these new-fangled tactical warp drives running; but also to go out and start mining, processing, and distributing a range of new key resources - not least of which being those essential dilithium crystals.

Plus, there was the question of how exactly to apply all of these new technologies. It's actually quite remarkable how many non-tactical warp (GPD TL 9) hulls proved capable of being refitted to any level of tactical warp drive. And yet, despite the occasional outliers like the Terran light cruiser, few of these hulls proved capable of taking the next technological leap forward. Thus, when the time came to field "true" Early Years ships, such as the Republic-class YCA or the Klingon D4, most of these ships had to be freshly designed and built from the keel up.

As noted in Module X1R and in Away Team Log, advanced technology (GPD TL 13) itself required a host of rare elements, such as germanium and gadolinium, which no-one had cared to go looking for in any great numbers before. (On a side note, there is a set of "space whales" which happen to feed on these rare minerals as part of their diet.)

Once again, this obliged the Alpha Octant empires to go out and prospect for new colony sites (and to re-check older ones which had been overlooked in the past) in order to build up enough XTPs to pay for all of these bold new technologies.

But as for the ships themselves, it was still the case that first-generation X-ships were pushing the "modern" (GPD TL 12) hulls as far as they could go. Note that the largest "metal-hull" X-ships were base on heavy command cruisers: heavy battlecruisers simply could not handle the strain of being upgraded to X-tech.

It would not be until Y205 before second-generation X-ships (GPD TL 15*), the first to have advanced technology woven in from the keel up, would be made to exist. Notably, it's been stated over in the SFB Module X2 discussion thread that pre-X2 ships shall not be capable of being upgrded to X2 technology.


*In case you are wondering, GPD TL 14 is skipped for the most part in the Alpha Octant; it's used to refer to certain "exotic" artifacts such as the Holdfast sphere, as well as to empires such as the Andromedans which do not fit neatly into the standard Tech Level progression table.

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Monday, February 10, 2020 - 07:49 am: Edit

In my CL 52 article, I wrote that the Vincennes conversion (CB to CX) was extremely expensive and not completely successful, by which I meant to imply that the ship was something of a maintenance nightmare. While it was possible to convert a CB to a CX, the rest of the CX class were built from the keel up to avoid these problems.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Tuesday, February 18, 2020 - 11:25 pm: Edit

Had yet another one of those extraordinarily weird musings today that often brings out the men in the white coats.

The Orion Syndicates. When one of them has a "Change in Administration" (namely when a new Crime Lord takes over), how often is it a peaceful transition? I mean, EVERYONE in a position of authority in the Syndicates is both ruthless in their sense of self-advancement and has a willingness to break the law.

What happens when there IS a coup within a Syndicate? What happens to the ship masters who were loyal to the overthrown Boss? Will the new Boss be willing to trust them?

(I can't imagine any WOULD be.)

Perhaps better for us, what about a mini-campaign about a Ship Master waging a campaign to overthrow a newly installed Crime Boss?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - 12:32 am: Edit

I should note that "Orion Syndicate" is a post-1979 Franchise term: the Star Fleet Universe would refer to Orion Cartels instead.

I should also note that, according to the Orion background data in A Call to Arms: Star Fleet, Book 2, the re-naming of the Capital Cartel to the Dragon Cartel took place in Y174, as a result of an internal civil war. Indeed, this happened to take place during the Orion Enclave's self-imposed separation from the Federation, so perhaps one might wonder if this temporary "Orexit" had something to do with things.

Although, might much of that series of events be best portrayed along the lines of a Prime Directive RPG campaign, rather than something to be handled at a tactical (SFB/FC) level?

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - 02:23 pm: Edit

Syndicate/Cartel; dratted, screwball malfunctioning brain...

Would you believe the thought of running something like this as a PDRPG?

TBH: I really just had a screwball "Vision" of a series of scenarios.

First one, an Orion CA tries to escape a trap. This could easily also be expanded into scenarios where other Orion ships captained by folks loyal to the Old Boss are targeted, but the intervention of the "Rogue" CA may turn the tide to save them.

Another screwball idea has an Orion loyal to the Old Boss raiding a convoy with the intent to lure the military responding forces to come after them, only to be lured to where the new Boss has his/her personal base.

(How to pull THAT one off in a scenario is beyond me right now, but who knows...)

Maybe I should have sat on this until the lunacy passed?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - 02:57 pm: Edit

Jeff Anderson:

Question of note:

The Cartels are to some extent an image of the Mafia and other criminal organizations that really exist.

How many of those crimelords were killed and replaced by someone in their organization violently? Sure, it happens in gangster movies all the time. But Capone, as an example, was not removed by traitors in his organization. There were a few attempts, that ended badly for those trying to depose Capone.

Basically, your issue is going to be that the whole cartel system is based on secrecy and spies. Very few people on any Orion ship have access to the navigation charts. Your average crewmen knows they visited a Cartel base two weeks ago, but has no idea where the base is actually located, or where any other base is. All Orion officers are watching any Orion officer with knowledge of the Navigation charts because if those fell in the hands of the minions of the law the whole Cartel could be swept up in a matter of months.

In order for anyone to have a chance to even start, he has to have access to the Navigation charts, or he has to already be assigned (so to speak) to the location where the Cartel Lord is. And all of them are watched by the Cartel Lord's security people. (Orion ships do not have security stations, but they do have agents of the Cartel Lord keeping tabs on loyalty, since, again, it takes only one person with access to the Navigation charts to shut down the whole Cartel).

Or, put another way, there is a reason Orion ships have suicide bombs.

By Michael Bennett (Mike) on Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - 09:16 pm: Edit

This is an interesting piece of information ("according to the Orion background data in A Call to Arms: Star Fleet, Book 2, the re-naming of the Capital Cartel to the Dragon Cartel took place in Y174, as a result of an internal civil war"--Gary Carney).

Is this information mentioned anywhere else?

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - 11:39 pm: Edit

I love the term Gary coined: "Orexit"

I like Gary's speculation that the turmoil in the Cartel may have been related to the politics of the newly independent Enclave. Given it's geography, the Capital Cartel is probably more ethnically and culturally Orion than most Cartels and has stronger economic and political ties with institutions in the Enclave. While pirates are interested in profits, not politics, there may have been a significant minority (or perhaps one patriotic cartel lord) who wanted to use cartel resources in support of the newly independent state and that led to a Civil War within the Cartel. It's possible that Enclave defense forces got involved in the fighting as well.

Gary had previously mentioned (in another topic) that an article on capital defenses in CL41 notes (of Orion) that"

"There are normally no 'pirate' ships in-system, although there were as many as six of these during the brief period of Orion neutrality during the General War."

Perhaps the presence of these ships were somehow related to the turmoil in the Capital Cartel? It would be a great historical irony if these ships were not mercenaries, but pirate ships that had actually mutinied in order to join the Enclave Navy and defend the homeland.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, February 20, 2020 - 01:36 am: Edit

SPP, it was (yet another) zany thought from my kooky cocoanut, but it did prompt chat, so maybe it wasn't all bad.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, February 20, 2020 - 03:53 pm: Edit

Jeff Anderson:

And I was not trying to shut it down, just making some historical and background observations.

Sure, loyalty within the Cartels is an issue, and there are "wars" between Cartels.

But while there are similarities, there are also differences.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, February 20, 2020 - 05:59 pm: Edit

The point I am making is loyalty is even more paramount in the Cartels than it is here on planet Earth. There are a lot of fixed installations (bases) that cost a lot of money, take a lot of time to extract (if they are simply accidentally discovered), and without which a Cartel's situation becomes so untenable that a neighboring Cartel may simply move in and take over.

You have to have the bases because ships get damaged (whether by "enemy action," or accident) and have to repaired. They need to be fueled. There needs to be facilities to train replacements. It is not like any old man off the street can drive a car, you need to train people to be effective starship crew. There are maintenance tasks that have to be performed, and even the low IQ guys with guns have to have minimum capability to serve as ship crew (established in the rules that even Orion Pirates can convert boarding parties to crew units if they need to).

So, again, if the ships Navigation files fall into "the wrong hands" (i.e. the minions of the law) a given Cartel could see its entire support infrastructure eliminated by the minions of law and order pretty quickly.

So you cannot just recruit thugs off the street or crew your ships with "drop outs with guns."

And as was noted in another article, the Cartel system has to run pretty careful background checks on any one who does offer to join because he might be a deep cover cop trying to get into a position to copy the Cartel's Navigation records.

So there is a lot of "mutual assured destruction" in the Cartels because if a Light Raider shows up moving from Cartel A to Cartel B, both Cartels have a vested interest in that ship's Navigation books and the integrity of those who have access. And thus all Cartels have a "betrayal is rewarded with the most painful death we can administer, along with your family, your pets, and anyone else we can think of that might mean something to you. Even if you only betrayed Pharoah Cartel, Penzance Cartel will kill you because the message has to be sent to all ship captains that you do not betray a Cartel (or a captain or Navigator or executive officer, or Helmsman who noted that that Captain is living comfortably might betray Penzance). And it is instilled in anyone who has access to the Navigation books.

Independents may know the locations of bases in adjacent Cartels, but they also know the Cartels will share information on their reliability, because the Cartels do not want independents handing over their navigation books to the Minions of Law and Order.

And as the Cartels control the flow of replacement crew, and vet them, they also make sure to plant agents among those replacement crew to keep tabs on the ships they serve on and report back to the Cartel if there is anything hinky.

Does all of this mean there is never a case of a Cartel Lord being assassinated and replaced? No. It just means that it is going to be pretty rare. It also means that anyone who comes under suspicion is more likely to be terminated with extreme prejudice at the first sign of disloyalty, because "better safe than sorry."

Note that even Independents do not get to choose their own crews. The crews must come from the Cartel's system, and so will the replacements for losses.

And note again that none of this means there is no such thing as a war between Cartels, it just means that it is of necessity a rare thing.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, February 20, 2020 - 07:44 pm: Edit

Y'know, these are all matters I've always been either too naieve or too honest to think in terms of.

Maybe that's why I could never stoop to becoming a lawyer?

(Or worse, a politician... )

In all seriousness, because of what I've read or watched on TV (before I gave up the idiotbox), I'd assumed that the heads of criminal organizations have managed to hold on to the power they had by making sure their top lieutenants feared and distrusted each other more than they did the boss.

On the other hand, while such things may not be a part of the history of the SFU, certain "Documentarianists" aren't confined by such things as "Reality." Could some wanna-be Olivette Roche/Ed Wood hybrid win an award for a "Cartel Civil War History 'Documentary?'"

By Steven Zamboni (Szamboni) on Friday, February 21, 2020 - 04:10 pm: Edit

The "Drive" comic series also looks at a government running on family/cartel loyalty. Members of "La Familia" are trained in secrecy and meet untimely deaths and disappearances if they falter. Secret police, assassins, not-on-the-map planets and shipyards, it's all close to how I would see a Cartel organization working to maintain power over there section of the map (minus the actual piracy).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, February 21, 2020 - 05:40 pm: Edit

Well, as far as it goes, the "fastest" way I could see a Cartel Lord getting himself removed by his "loyal" followers is if he mentions (even jokingly) selling the Navigation book to a minion of the law as part of his retirement from the Cartel (Federation & Empire cites retirement on their ill-gotten gains as the goal of Cartel Lords if I recall correctly). At that point, as the saying goes, the Knives will come out!

And I could easily see every member of a Cartel looking to get that next higher job. But access to any position that would get you access to the Navigation book means one hell of a lot of scrutiny. Even an independent operator beloved by his crew would be killed by that crew on the spot if there was any indication that he was going to give the navigation book to a minion of the law, even if he was doing it to betray Cartel A while he moved the ship to Cartel B. The knowledge of how to find Cartel bases for repairs and fuel and safe "shore leave" and incidentals is just too critical to the Cartel's operations. Those secrets must be kept.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, February 21, 2020 - 06:02 pm: Edit

I have noted that the Cartel system is by definition the source of replacement crewmen (which might be disgruntled former members of various space navies and merchant services, or simply adventurous former members of same). But anyone coming into the Cartel is a potential agent of the forces of law and order and has to be checked out (vetted). And the Cartel is obviously going to insert its own spies into the crews of any, and all, ships operating in the Cartel's territory. And want to bet that at least some of those spies have the capability of self-destructing the ship they are on if they think it necessary, no matter the opinions of the rest of the crew?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Friday, February 21, 2020 - 06:29 pm: Edit

Let us say that I was kicked out of The Starfleet academy. For actions not favorable to the honor and integrity of Star Fleet.

Then got jobs on small freighters and the like. After a few years of this I am tired of the little money made. I get word some how that a Orion Cartel is looking for crew.

Talking with a few members of the crew of the Small freighter I am on. (perhaps there is a Orion agent aboard) We/I take over the freighter and travel to back water little colony named Red Fox.
There the cargo is taken and the ship registry changed. Welcome to the cartel boys.

I only know the one port Red Fox.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, February 21, 2020 - 07:13 pm: Edit

Gregory S. Flusche:

You know a "contact point." Once you turned the ship over to the Cartel, they put a crew on it to take it elsewhere. If you went along, you were kept from the navigation systems so that you did not learn anything of value. (If you did happen to be a deep cover operative, you know only what you knew before; there is a means of contacting Orions at Red Fox. Your freighter was thoroughly searched for tracking devices (and if one was found that you did not know about, you can hope the pirates are feeling generous and leave you someplace you can survive, otherwise they may decide to give you a "retirement ceremony"). If no tracking devices are found, and there are no indications that anyone is "following the freighter," and you do not ask too many questions about "where are we going," then you will eventually find yourself where you can be interviewed for a job with the Cartel. That interview MIGHT indicate that you can be developed as one of the trusted with the Navigation book, but even so you will not see such a position initially. Your background will be investigated, and the Cartels do have agents in the shipping and personnel Bureaucracies. Even if you check out, you will very likely be shipped off to another Cartel (can happen, does not always happen, see Captain Deth O'Kay of the OPC Hammerfield). From that point, until you are proven to be a loyal and trusted pirate, you will never, ever, know where your ship is beyond "we visited a base called Eagle 1 six weeks cruising ago, but I do know what direction it was in, how many direction changes we made, and what speeds we went or how often we changed speed, I just know the engines were louder sometimes, and quieter some times." Perhaps with a "we attacked a convoy on X date." But if anyone finds you creating unauthorized records, even if just so you can "write an autobiography of my experiences once I retire" it will go very badly for you.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, February 21, 2020 - 07:32 pm: Edit

Remember this:

The Orions are not squeamish about killing. They are, however, aware that cutting a bloody path through the spaceways will focus the attention of the law and order types on them.

So, yes, some merchant crew might become casualties because they resisted, but generally slaughtering the crews of such ships is "bad for business" if a particular pirate ship gets a bloody reputation.

And yes, people get forced into slavery, but by and large while the health care and food may not be first class, it is in the interests of the Cartel that when the purpose of the slavery ends, they can drop a note to the local law enforcement on where to find the slaves that remain, and again it is good business for the local law enforcement not to find piles of dead people who were left to starve to death.

But it does mean that if someone is suspected of being a police agent, it is entirely in the Cartel's hands whether that person lives (perhaps becoming a slave rather than dropped off at an isolated station or other colony) or dies.

And a blood pirate working across a border is liable to find the two powers cooperating to get him, while if he is not "bloody," the two empires may argue jurisdiction, so that when he crosses the border pursuit must end.

Like it or not, the Orion pirates have many of the aspects of a professional force: They have to simply because it requires professionals to operate and maintain not just the ships themselves, but the bases that service those ships.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Saturday, February 22, 2020 - 01:38 pm: Edit

I would think that longstanding pirate bases would either have families aboard or have a nearby "agricultural station" or something with the families.

There are probably people born into a cartel, and who feel as loyal to the cartel as anyone else might feel toward their nation. Those people are likely where the cartel gets its agents and where many of the people with the navigation book come from.