SPP:

Understood, thank you kindly.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Friday, March 06, 2020 - 09:33 pm: Edit

In a game that was just played...a player had a planet defense scenario. He bought ground bases including a bomber SK-2 base. Year is 167 I think. I do not have J2. So was wondering. Did the SK-2s come fully equipped in 167. Reason I am wondering is of course it says the can be bought in 160. Fighters cannot even get Phaser Gs until 170 I believe. And HBs are in 168 on a few fighter ships. So do they come fully equipped in 160? or is there a fade in upgrade refit kind of thing for them? Oh on a side note...I was surprised in that with the Hydran Starship Master Book on Bombers section. It does not mention what phasers are carried. Just the fusions and HBs.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, March 07, 2020 - 12:07 am: Edit

I will have a look at it when I get to the office tomorrow.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Saturday, March 07, 2020 - 01:45 am: Edit

Pulled out Module G3. Page 136, it lists as follows for the SK-2...

Size: 3
Speed: 12
Phasers: 2xP-G-FX, 1xP-G-RA
Drones: -
Damage: 24
Other Weapons: 2xFusion-FA; 2xHellbore-FA; 1xEW Pod
BPV: 33
Year: 160
DFR: -1*
Product: J2
Reference: F9

As to the rule for fighters not being able to utilize Gatlings phasers before Y170, the only thing I can even guess at is that the Spikes aren't fighters; they're Bombers. I can't see why that'd make a difference, but it might.

The Master Fighter Chart (referencing the article in Captain's Log #21) has a pretty hefty slew of fighter types that evolved extra features; some fifteen variants (it looks like, not counting MegaFighter versions) of the Stinger-1 alone, but only the four specific bomber types for the Hydrans. The completeness of the differing fighter types, along with the color text for the Spike-2 leads me to believe that the total run of the Spike-2 did indeed have the three Gatlings Phaser arrangement from the chart.

The Color Text in J2 states, "The improved version of the original bomber, only a few were built in the Old Colonies for use in tesests and for defense against pirates. Production increased with the statr of the General War, but deployment was not as extensive as that of the Spike-1 by the time the Kingdom fell again the the early Y170s."

I infer from that text that, in all likelihood, the majority were likely built before Y170 and, as such, if they were under the rule of fighters not being able to operate Gatling phasers before that signal year, then their chart description would have stated that they did not.

However, my interpretations are often wrong.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, March 07, 2020 - 12:57 pm: Edit

From the Hydran Master Starship Book, following the Stinger-A fighter is this:

After the restoration of the Kingdom in Y135, the Hydrans began an intensive program to create a phaser-G-armed Stinger. The first prototypes (Stinger-1g in Y147) were hideously expensive and were used only by the "House Guards" squadrons that protected the King. These squadrons were instrumental in ending the five years of "civil wars" within the palace in Y151 and enabled the ascendancy of Hydraxan XXIII. The "House Guards" remained around Hydrax, and were never deployed outside the Capitol system. They eventually received new Stinger-2s and were wiped out under the personal command of Hydraxan XXIII in the Fall of Hydrax in Y171. Ultimately the new shuttle phaser-G saw its largest deployment in the multi-role shuttles (J8.0) deployed in Y150.
Shortly before the General War, technological breakthroughs resulted in a phaser-G that was cheap enough for fighters. The cheap phaser-G burned out after a few battles, but could be easily replaced by carrier maintenance crews between battles.
Elsewhere in the Kingdom, improved engines granted greater speed. Those that received the engine upgrade were designated Stinger-1+ while those with phaser-Gs were designated Stinger-1g. These upgrades were unevenly applied. Some production facilities installed both upgrades in their fighters (Stinger-1+g), some only one, and some were not able to apply either. Some existing fighters were upgraded in the field or at repair depots. Chaff packs (D11.0), added in Y168, did not change the designation of a given variant.
The Stinger-1+, Stinger-1g, and Stinger-1+g all use the SSD of the Stinger-1 (R9.F1). These were never fitted with mega-packs (J16.0), as all had been removed from service by Y174. Note that the older standard Stinger-1 remained in service for nearly a decade after these (and other) variants appeared. This is because the standard Stinger-1 had been in production for an extended period of time and major "war stocks" of them existed. Even after the second fall of the capital, there were massive stockpiles of Stinger-1s in the Old Colonies, built up over decades in anticipation of eventually contacting another space-going empire in their exploration zone that would prove as inimical as the Klingons and Lyrans. These stockpiles kept many Hydran ships and defense battalions supplied with replacement fighters while production of Stinger-2s (R9.F2) in the Old Colonies were ramped up.

Given this from the ship description of the Spike-2:

(R9.F9) SPIKE-2 BOMBER (Sk-2): The improved version of the original bomber, only a few were built in the Old Colonies for use in tests and for defense against pirates. Production increased with the start of the General War, but deployment was not as extensive as that of the Spike-1 (R9.F8) by the time the Kingdom fell again in the early Y170s.

It can be reasonably extrapolated that expensive phaser-Gs used by the MRS shuttle and the House Guards Stingers were also used in the initial squadrons of the Spike-2. Production of the Spike-2 was, as noted in the bomber's description, ramped up with the start of the General War and would have used the newly developed less durable phaser-G. Phaser-Gs were available to fighters earlier, but were simply too expensive, and even when mounted in bombers (easier to do because of their size) the deployment was limited until the cheaper less durable phaser-G was developed allowing wider deployment at the start of the General War.

As to how the bombers were listed in the Hydran Master Starship Book, you get into the issue that each subsequent book builds on the earlier books as players ask for things to be incorporated. And the Hydran book was actually the first book done (as a prototype/proof of concept) and then the Federation Book was done and released as a standard, and the Hydran prototype book followed it. And no one noticed at the time that while the follow-on Federation book had added the phasers on the bombers.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Saturday, March 07, 2020 - 06:36 pm: Edit

Cool, thanks Steve...one of my points...the add on one...was that the weapons suite listed for the Bombers failed to mention the phasers at all in the actual section dealing with...the bombers as in under the descriptions saying what was on them. So in general, if we assume that for a scenario...this could be like the Hydran HW Guard...then the SK-2s could have phaser Gs. With that assumed...though...in a campaign...is there any indication when the regular SK-2s would come equipped fully with Gs? Or is it assumed that if any are built from 160 on they are always equipped with Gs...and since they are only used as planet defense, they have access to replacements and it is not an issue?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, March 07, 2020 - 10:04 pm: Edit

Charles H Carroll:

The Spike-2s always have phaser-Gs.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 04:21 am: Edit

Thank you sir.

By Marcel Trahan (Devilish6996) on Tuesday, March 10, 2020 - 10:42 am: Edit

I have a question regarding Nebulaes:

Rule (P6.5) RANDOM MOVEMENT: specifies that units are moved ramdomly.

Does it affect units in an orbit around a planet or units at speed 0 doing Tactical Manoeuvers?

Marcel Trahan

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, March 10, 2020 - 11:17 am: Edit

@Marcel: I cannot give a full answer, but I would imagine that if the unit in orbit is a base with positional stabilizers, the answer would be "no" in that limited case.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 10, 2020 - 03:33 pm: Edit

Marcel Trahn:

I am afraid that Random Nebular movement does affect units in orbit around a planet or moon in a nebula, and units at Speed 0, whether they are using tactical maneuvers or not. Random Nebular movement has nothing to do with a given unit's movement or non-movement status. Whether the unit is not moving at all or moving Speed 31 or anything in between, the Random movement is caused by the turbulence within the Nebula (P6.0) [unless the Nebula has been defined as a "quiet" one (P6.5), last sentence].

Ted Fay is correct that if a unit with active positional stabilizers were in a Nebula it would not be moved. The problems such a base would have (besides the difficulty of getting all the parts assembled to start with due to the turbulence) is that the free ECM probably does not make up for the reduced shields when the base is attacked. Sure, the attacking ships have minimal shields also, but the inability of a base to try to evade damage makes this far more problematic and why I would normally not suggest building bases in Nebulas.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, March 10, 2020 - 03:40 pm: Edit

But a Jindarain asteroid ship might hide in one.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 10, 2020 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Gregory S. Flusche:

While Jindarian asteroid ships only have minimum shields and their armor is in no way reduced by the Nebula effects, they are no more able to "hide" in a Nebula than the ships of any other empire. Their defenses are simply not as degraded as most other empires by Nebular effects.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, March 10, 2020 - 05:31 pm: Edit

By "hide in one", I took Gregory Flusche to mean that a Jindarian asteroid ship in trouble might "take refuge" in a nebula, not that it would be concealed there. A force quite capable of dispatching the asteroid ship in open space might think twice three times many times about engaging it in the nebula.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 10, 2020 - 05:46 pm: Edit

Alan Trevor, Gregory S. Flusche::

One of the other of you might try working that idea up as a scenario to submit. Remember that you would not be restricted to the "General War" period, that is to say you could take your setting almost anywhere from "The Early Years" through the Andromedan War. Keep in mind "historical consequences" [i.e., if you are going to use the LDR you do not have a lot of room for "destroyed ships" on the LDR side (similar problem if the empire in question were Tholian or WYN), but you could if it were the Kzintis or Gorns or other large empire include some losses]. You could also set such a thing as a Magellanic Cloud scenario (more room for losses among the non-Jindarians) or perhaps even Omega Octant.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, March 10, 2020 - 07:55 pm: Edit

SPP,

Getting back to that thing about non-bases orbiting a planet, does that mean a ship trying to orbit a planet in an active nebula can have that nebular movement slam it into the planet? That seems pretty wild. It's been so long since I looked at the planet landing rules in SFB, but that could even make landing on the planet problematic.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Tuesday, March 10, 2020 - 08:44 pm: Edit

Huh?? Not with normal orbital mechanics (station keeping) since your craft isn't moving (in relation to the planet, or at least in the timeframe of a scenario). Your craft's orientation has shifted (the #2 or #6 shield is now leading) but the direction of travel shouldn't.

Now if the nebula jolt is hefty enough to knock you out of orbit, all bets are off …

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 11, 2020 - 02:46 pm: Edit

Mike West:

Rule (P6.5) says 'During the Movement Segment of Impulses #5, #15, and #26, all units (including seeking weapons) are moved one hex in a random direction (determined by die roll; use the arrows around hex 0328) and may have their facing changed to a new direction (determined by die roll). This random movement does not affect turn or sideslip modes." It does not say "any ship moving faster than Speed 0," nor does it say "except for ships in orbit." It says "ALL UNITS." If your ship is in orbit, it is still a "unit," and random movement caused by the Nebula will occur. And, yes, if you get pushed into the planet/moon "bad things will happen(tm)."

Stewart Frazier: The Nebula jolt happens during three impulses of the turn, and each time it happens ALL UNITS are moved one hex in a random direction. Unless it is a quiet nebula where such movement does no occur, or you have a legendary Helmsman, in which case your ship is only affected one per turn rather than three times a turn.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, March 11, 2020 - 05:31 pm: Edit

What's a legendary helmsman?

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Wednesday, March 11, 2020 - 06:12 pm: Edit

The legendary Helmsman is (G22.8) A Legendary Navigator.
(G22.84) Nebular: For the purposes of (P6.5), the ship only wanders on impulse #15, not on impulses #5 and #26.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, March 11, 2020 - 11:12 pm: Edit

Cool. Thank you for the expansion of the answer.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, March 12, 2020 - 02:18 pm: Edit

As to landing on a planet in a Nebula (that is not quiet), note that the forced movement occurs at set impulses, and all you need to do is be next to the planet on Impulse #32, at Speed Zero or one. The rules then specifically allow ANY SHIP to use a tractor beam to begin the Gravity Landing System (P2.432), see specifically (P2.4324). You simply lower your ship into the atmosphere (or the gravity well) of the planet where you will not be affected by the Nebular turbulence, and then can use Atmospheric flight as needed.

Heck, you can approach at a relatively high speed and use emergency deceleration.

But orbiting a planet at Radius 1 in a non-quiet nebula is simply "asking for trouble."

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, March 12, 2020 - 02:31 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

But orbiting a planet at Radius 1 in a non-quiet nebula is simply "asking for trouble."

---

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, March 12, 2020 - 02:55 pm: Edit

That almost sounds like a classic “hard landing” tm.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, March 12, 2020 - 03:10 pm: Edit

SPP,

Regarding your comment from Tuesday about Gregory Flusche or me trying to work up a scenario involving a Jindarian in a nebula; I regret I am not very good at coming up with new scenarios, at least not balanced ones.

But thinking about it, I did recall that I once contemplated, though so far as I can recall never actually proposed, a "Stellar Shadows-type" class of cruisers specifically for fighting in nebulae. These cruisers had armor (based on some technobabble-neutronium/impervium/unobtainium alloy) that acted like Jindarian rock armor except that any damage to it could not be repaired during the course of the scenario. I had been thinking in terms of about 10-15 points of armor per shield facing, which would be a nice upgrade for open space battles but a HUGE upgrade for nebula battles. No empire ever built such ships for two reasons. The difficulty in producing the alloy meant there would be a very large economic surcharge for these ships. And the mass of the neutronium would significantly increase movement cost while worsening turn mode. Compared to the empire's standard cruisers, "nebula cruisers" would be well protected but slow, with poor maneuverability, and would cost a lot more to build. They would only be worth the cost if the empire expected to have to fight some critically important battles inside a nebula.

As stated, I'm pretty sure I never actually proposed such ships. Possibly I will revisit that decision the next time ADB looks like it's going to publish another Stellar Shadows Journal.