Nice Writeup and Awesome Game! Great use of shuttles to soak up phaser fire and score damage. I especially like using the Point of Reserve Power for a Tractor.

Just some questions, if you, or anyone else, has any spare time:

1) When you say, "slip to CL", you mean...?

2) When you say, "he forgot I had squat to fire because of the pesky weapons cycling rules." I assume you are talking about the 8-Impulse Delay? With Disruptors, Phasers, and ESG, I'm not sure what else you are referring to here...?

If the Selt is notable weaker (which I agree with), then why isn't it "beefed up" more? Or you could ask why a weaker ship is thrown in with ships that are obviously more powerful?

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Thursday, February 27, 2020 - 08:19 pm: Edit

Norma,
1) CL - Center line.
2) Yes. I forgot that he fired his Disruptors and most of the phasers on impulse 28. So I was expecting him to fire everything on impulse 1 to my very weak shield #1. That is why I put 17 points of reinforcement into shield #1 and nothing into weapons.

When it comes it being a little weak. We need more reports on the Seltorian to prove that. Mr. Petrick learned his lesson many years with the Seltorian, when people kept telling him that the Seltorian needed 2 Phaser-1s. So he added 2 more and we got a 10 Phaser-1 ship. To say the very least it was a killer ship. (i.e. it killed my Andromedan in a PBEM tournament when the Andro was considered by some unbeatable). And was corrected before the next Origins came around. So he waits on having enough data to prove that it needs to be improved. As it is the Seltorian was given a 3rd Web Breaker but that is the only change that was made.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Thursday, February 27, 2020 - 10:19 pm: Edit

I guess I wonder how many more playtests we need to get something done for the Seltorian. In my mind it is clearly not balanced to many other ships and I doubt anyone would argue with that. It certainly not a tactics problem. It's a ship problem.

Maybe we don't need a balanced Seltorian. Maybe it can't be balanced. Maybe it should just be a fun to play ship we have for one off games that can't seriously be thought to be a contender in tournaments.

I would be willing to help "play" the playtests but not if we need 100-200 more playtests to get something done. I would appreciate guidance from the powers that be (PTB) on how we go about working toward making changes to balance ships that need it, and maybe also look at the non-sanctioned ships and see what can be done to get them there.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 28, 2020 - 08:40 am: Edit

Yeah, I think the problem with the Seltorian is simply that it is a ship that has too many inherent issues that can't be overcome just by adding a few extra guns, without making it insane.

The PCs having the terrible to hit numbers for a low crunch weapon combined with the 12 impulse delay over a turn break is super debilitating. That it fires twice in a turn doesn't help this, as the inefficient, low damage output follow up is unlikely to make a difference.

The ship having no way to manipulate opponent movement (seeking weapons, web, ESG, heavy crunch power of the Fed or Hydran) and nothing to distract opponent weapons is also debilitating.

I don't know that there is a way to make it particularly viable without making it overpowered. I've played it a bunch. It is not completely terrible, but most of what makes it even playable involves completely ignoring that the PCs can fire twice, just going fast, and trying to get a good first shot in (like he Fed, but less good than the Fed), and then hoping you survive to reload.

Like, the Seltorians are fine doing what they were designed for--being relatively simple to play opponents for Tholians in fleet engagements (where you can have 10 ships on a side, no seeking weapons or fighters, and cast web isn't even a particularly good idea), where massed, double firing PCs can be effective. But in a single ship duel on a closed map, there are just too many hurdles to overcome.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, February 28, 2020 - 09:53 am: Edit

Honestly the Fed is the same way. Great in fleet engagements where many dice smooth out the photon hit curve, very inconsistent in solo combat.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 28, 2020 - 11:02 am: Edit

I mean:

A) Yes.

but also:

B) At least the Fed has the threat of a game ending alpha strike.

I mean, yeah, dice are always going to be an issue with the Fed. But that the Fed *can* jackpot at R8 and end your game, or jackpot at R4 and end your game, or jackpot at R2 and end your game has a *great* deal of impact on how the game runs when fighting the Fed. I mean, yeah, most of the time, the Fed does not jackpot at R8 (or whatever) and end the game. But every game against the Fed is "how do I avoid accidentally dying at R8 through a back shield or surviving at close range".

I mean, yeah, a lot of games against the Fed are "He finally got a good R8 shot on a back shield, he missed with all 4 photons, and eventually I killed him" or "we got to R4, he hit with 1 of 4 overloads, and he died". But the potential threat of the Fed is what makes the Fed a viable ship.

The Seltorian doesn't even have that. At R8, it is gonna go, like, what, not even 30 damage average, and even if it jackpots, it goes up to, uh, 45? In close, it is *never* going to do 100 damage.

The ship's weapons just aren't damaging enough. And have sub optimal to hit numbers, and bad image breaks (the PC still does 8 damage on a 1-4 at R2 when OL). It is a grim, uphill fight for that thing.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Friday, February 28, 2020 - 11:24 am: Edit

I agree with Peter on the Fed. I don't think there is a ship I fight against that causes me more stress then fighting a Fed. It doesn't need seeking weapons to affect my movement. It looks at me the wrong way and I am afraid! I think the Fed needs a G-rack to be very competitive but don't think the ship is awful as it is. It really probably is a 50/50 matchup against almost everything (jackpots and all).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, March 01, 2020 - 04:51 pm: Edit

1.06 Grim (ZIN) over bakija (GRN)

T2: We start in the middle of T2; I have 50 plasma on the map, 4 medium drones right next to me, I'm going 26, the Kzinti is 31, I just HET away from the Kzinti and we are at R4. There is a shuttle on the map about 8 hexes away that could be the Kzinti SP, but probably isn't.

He launches a single fast drone, fires 8P3 at my F torp and vaporizes it. I fire a couple P1s at his #6 for some insignificant damage. The next impulse he eats the plasma for 30 damage on his #5, takes 3 internals after 5 reinforcement (the shield had a bit of enveloper damage), hitting 2 hull and a warp. I kinda drift to my left, he turns in and follows me. At some point as he chases me, I launch my last F torp, which ends up hitting his #4 shield for 15 points (as that is often what happens with close range plasma launches against fast opponents). Impulse 31 I kill his fast drone on the map with a P3 (type I). Impulse 32, we are at R3, my #3 facing his #6. He launches 3 more fast drones. I fire 4xP1 at his #6, roll hot, do 20 damage, which is irrelevant.

T3: I have empty batteries and low phaser capacitors, and a single weasel held (an error I made on T1...). The Kzinti is at 3 hexes. If he goes for a suicide R3 anchor (which if it works, I just die), and I try and run this turn, he grabs me and I die. If I run, I can really only make about 24 hexes (plus possible batteries), and he might chase and catch me. I end up doing a weird mid plot of rapid decel moving 9 hexes, starting from speed 24 to get some distance if he tries to grab me on impulse 1; 7 in tractors, recharge a bunch, plan on decelling by the end on impulse 2 to get the drones on my tail. The Kzinti doesn't try for a suicide anchor, and is moving 26. He launches a shuttle which is easy to kill and probably a decoy SP, so I fall for it and don't kill it. I launch a fast F out of my second turn S tube, just to possibly score some internals somewhere. I skid to a halt, launch a weasel, it gets out of my hex before 6 drones hit it. I announce AFC coming up, the impulse before my AFC is up, the SP which was too easy to kill to be a SP turns out to be his SP, launches 6 drones. He decells in my hex. I surrender here. I have no more weasels. He has 4 drones to launch at me, 6 drones on the map that I'm fairly certain I can't do anything about other than shoot them or eat them (the SP opened on impulse 10; my afc came up on impulse 11. I'm fairly certain that due to the SOP of when the SP opened, I could not turn off my AFC in time to keep the SP drones targeted on my weasel; if I had another weasel, I could have launched that and been sort of saved, but I didn't). Best case scenario here, I manage to avoid all his T3 drones with a weasel and phasers, impulse 32 he knocks down a facing shield with all his phasers and maybe an OL disruptor, impulse 1 of the next turn, I eat 3xOL at R0, have to deal with 4 more drones, and have nothing to hurt him with anyway.

I have said many times that the Kzinti can do just fine against the Gorn if it just sucks it up and eats a bunch of plasma and corners the Gorn. When this Kzinti decided to do that when I was hoping he would not, I was basically doomed.

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Sunday, March 01, 2020 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Fantastic Game!

Isn't it not so much that the Kzinti plowed through the plasma to get you, but rather that you guessed wrong about the SP?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, March 01, 2020 - 06:35 pm: Edit

Nah. If I had killed the SP at R4, I'm still hosed. The SP just made it so I was dead sooner.

If I kill the SP at R4 when he launches it, I'm saved from that. But then I still end up stopped with the Kzinti at R0, and no other weasels armed. He launches drones at me, one at a time (if he can't tractor me, which he might have been able to do at that point anyway). I have to use 2 phasers on each drone, 'cause if it is a fast heavy drone, one phaser only kills it 1/3rd the time. I might be able to kill all 4 of those drones. But then the suicide shuttle he is holding hits me, followed by 4P1, 4P3, and maybe an OL disruptor off of batteries (depends on if he uses batteries to tractor me or not, but tractoring me is irrelevant, although he doesn't know that). And then on impulse 1 of the next turn, the other 3OLs hit through the down shield. And I have no plasma armed at this point due to foolish launching of F torps as I was chased, mostly due to fatalism.

I mean, like, Paul could have done all sorts of things that resulted in me not being killed that turn. But it was unlikely. Early in the game, I made some small errors in battery use and maneuvering. My opponent then did the thing he needed to do to take advantage of where I put myself, and did so successfully. It happens.

I whacked his ISC in the finals of the first Saphire tournament 'cause I guessed well and he guessed less well as to what was going to happen on the last turn. Seems fair that it swing around in his favor this time.

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Sunday, March 01, 2020 - 07:40 pm: Edit

I've never seen a Cat eat a Lizard before.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Monday, March 02, 2020 - 06:16 pm: Edit

I have seen Cats play with lizards

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Tuesday, March 03, 2020 - 06:22 am: Edit

Wyn Shark Vs LDR
This went to 4 turns but I had to concede due to an error in my EA on T3 gaining 1 extra movement.

Was a great game which I should have won but for that error.

Good luck in the next one Daniel!

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Tuesday, March 03, 2020 - 09:01 am: Edit

Norman: I had his front shield down to 10 or so points. He assumed I would alpha strike him on impulse 1 before he had a chance to get his shield away...(no tactical maneuvers or moves on impulse 1..)
It just slipped his mind that I couldn't fire imp 1 because of the 8 impulse firing delay. He did in reality have a chance to get a fresh shield facing me... so basically he ended up wasting a bunch of power on reinforcement trying to save his #1 instead of using it for stuff like weapons.

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Tuesday, March 03, 2020 - 10:04 am: Edit

Thanks Andy!...I mean Droid...I mean R2!

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 03, 2020 - 01:59 pm: Edit

Gentlemen:

I want to thank Majead Farsi for his efforts and gentlemanly behavior and wish him all luck in future games.

I must also advise you all that Brendan Lally had to withdraw from the tournament due to other real world conflicts, and I have asked Bill Schoeller to step up and take his slot against Justin Royter.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Tuesday, March 03, 2020 - 03:24 pm: Edit

Seth and I are going to play next Wednesday 3/11 around 6 pm eastern if anyone is interested.
I have a plan and all I can say at this juncture is that it involves ESGs, phasers, disruptors, suicide shuttles, tractor beams, fancy manuever, wise shield usage,... and lots of luck

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Tuesday, March 03, 2020 - 10:13 pm: Edit

Sounds like an excellent plan.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, March 04, 2020 - 05:06 pm: Edit

I suspect he has spies who stole it from my files.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, March 04, 2020 - 06:22 pm: Edit

MadJack (Gorn) vs Madman (Lyran)

Scheduled for Sunday(3/8) morning @ 9a eastern.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Wednesday, March 04, 2020 - 07:53 pm: Edit

Tree has been corrected for Tartan_Army replacement

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Madjack(Gorn) vs Madman(Lyran) have 4 turns done, still up for grabs. We'll pick back up in the next week. Mostly been a phaser/reinforcement duel. I've only shot 7 disr in 4 turns. Only 2 torps have been launched and 1 bolt.

T1. I(Madman) plot 27(15)/20(26)/27 for 25 moves, Madjack in the Gorn plots 17(12)/24 for 22 moves I think. I move straight ahead with only 1 slip until 21, I was sort of expecting a enveloper launch around imp 15 or 16. Seems almost every time I face a gorn I see a 60 pt from launcher B so I thought I'd go fast and straight and see what he did if I looked like I was going to fly past his RP launch arc. Gorn slipped back and forth a couple of times. On 21 we hit range 8 and I ovld 2 disr from batts and shot at his #6 hitting with 1 ovld and 1 std plus 11 from 6 ph-1 for 20. He reinforced 5 pts and took 15. Not sure, maybe I should have used my UIM for 2 ovlds, the dice as they were I would have hit with an extra ovld and I haven't had a chance to use it since then.

Next imp Gorn turns left to head towards me and shoots a couple ph-1 for 5 pts and I reinforce 1. I then turn to my right running from him and he gets a hex closer in the next couple impulses. On 26 I announce my speed change to 27 and as he won't get closer he launches an enveloper on imp 27 from his B launcher. On imp 28 he shoots 4ph-1 into my #4 doing 9 pts of damage. Torp ends up 7 hexes behind me at end of turn.

Turn 2 I don't arm any disr. I start at speed 31 running and fake like I'm going to turn right again and circle around to the corner on my starting board edge. If I move 31 I can cut the corner on the torp. Gorn starts at 17. On imp 5 though I slow down to 20 and turn left just before getting to the map edge. I slip to keep from hitting the board edge and turn left again with the torp trailing me. On imp 18 I sped up to 21 for the rest of the turn so I moved the next imp as I miscounted by a hex and the torp was going to hit me for 10 pts. On Imp 20 I turn left again to leave the side map edge and start heading back into the board. The Gorn has turn left by this point and is moving down to cut me off against his starting wall. I've got enough of a lead though I'll beat him to the wall by 3 or 4 hexes. On imp 27 Gorn changes speed up to 24 and we've got within 8 hexes. I'm on his #1 and he's on my #5. On imp 30 I announce 2 ESG's. On imp 31 we both move and he has me centerlined at range 5 my shield 6 to his #1. He thinks for a while about bolting but shoots 6 ph-1 at me and I shoot 6 ph-1 at him. He does 22 damage to my 20, neither of us reinforces anything. We end 4 hexes apart I think with him on my #5.

Turn 3 I start at 31 and the gorn's moving 26. On imp 1 I cancel one of my ESG's, the other comes up on imp 2 at range 2. Imp 2 the gorn turns to chase me, we're a hex or so off of center line. Imp 5 he slows to 16 and launches a couple shuttles, we're at range 3 or 4 at this point and if I was to turn left after he moved straight I could get an ESG hit. I was worried about a 10 or 15 point tractor though and didn't want to come to range 2 until I'd seen him move more hexes and seen him spend power on movement. On imp 6 I slow down to spd 26. Imp 7 he's on my #5 and I'm on his #1 at range 3. I shoot 4 ph-1 and he bolts 1 F torp and shoots 6 ph-1. He hits with the F and does 39 damage and I decide to keep my battery and take 15 internals. Unlucky rolls at the end, 3 of the last 5 were left warp hits after he'd got the phaser, tractor on the 10. I ended up losing 3 ph, 1 disr, 5 power and a tractor, weapons are expected, 5 power on 15 internals seemed harsh. I shoot 4 ph-1 back at his weak #1 doing 8 internals to him getting 2 phasers and 1 power. Next imp we both turn, I turn my #4 to him and bring my RS ph-1 into arc, he turns to show me his previously hit #6. I get 10 pts of damage from 2 ph dropping the #6 to 5 pts remaining. Imp 13 he drops speed to 12 and tractors his shuttles back on board. On imp 17 I drop speed to 14 and we've got a dozen hexes between us. I start turning to my right around imp 20 and can just make the turn before hitting the wall (I'm about 2527C here for perspective, he's 0827F) to be try to get disr back in arc for the start of the next turn. On imp 22 he speeds up to 17. We end the turn 17 hexes apart and I fix a shield box on my #6.

Turn 4 I start at spd 14, and he's spd 17. He turns to put me on his #2 and I turn towards him on my 2 I think. Imp 7 he launches a 60 pt from launcher B. Imp 9 I shoot 3 disr at him hitting with 2, he reinforces 5 of the 6 damage. On imp 10 I HET away from the torp showing him my #4. On imp 14 I speed up to 20 and I spend the rest of the turn running from the torp. It ends the turn 2 hexes from me and will flame out on imp 1. I fix a box on my down shield 5 and repair 2 ph-3.

So after 4 turns my left side shields (5&6) are mostly gone although I have a box on both of them so I can reinforce some against an enveloper or long range phaser fire. I've also got 8 pts damage on my #4. He's down his #1 and only has 5pts left on his #6. I kind of expected him to bolt when we got closer, I'm wondering if he's got his A launcher on rolling delay and didn't have the battery to complete the arming or to HET away after bolting?

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Sunday, March 08, 2020 - 07:23 pm: Edit

Great Writeup and Awesome Game! Love hearing the though process behind it all...

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, March 11, 2020 - 03:02 pm: Edit

MadJack -vs- Madman continues Sunday (3/15),

9a eastern.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Wednesday, March 11, 2020 - 08:47 pm: Edit

Game 2.4 Seth beat me butg I like him anyway. I'll write us up tomorrow...
SPP you can put me in replacement pool if there is such a thing among such luminaries,,,