Archive through March 31, 2020
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: General Tactics Discussion:
Orion Tactics:
Archive through March 31, 2020
Michael Grafton:
The published material indicates that Warp Refitted Orion Enclave ships did piracy operations in addition to providing the National Guard ships. But from the Y113 mutiny (and before) LRs (and YLRs) were not used as police ships inside (or outside) the Orion enclave. (Neither were CRs or YCRs).
YLRs and YCRs (and the later LR and CR and other Orion "pirate" ships) were built for piracy (their use by the WYN cluster as line of battle ships excepting), and except for the WYN pretty much only used in that role. ("Pretty much," as background says that virtually all governments acquired, by various means, a few such ships for use in "clandestine" and "plausible deniability" operations.
But unless SVC states otherwise, Orion pirate ships are pirate ships, and pretty much subject to destruction on sight. (Obviously any given captain has to weigh the risks of attacking an Orion, e.g., a lowly Cutter is not going to attack a CR or even a DW unless he believes he can keep it tied up until something comes up to really do the job.) But there are some "arrangements" with some pirates (see the "Gossamer Phoenix" in the "Objective Juggernaut" fiction story in Captain's Log #1 where Commodore Grey clearly had a relationship with the captain of that Light Raider).
As to the Stealth feature being something you can turn on and off: No. It is built into the design and basically why Orion ships are built the way they are built. If you could turn it on and off, there would be an energy cost for such activations, equipment added to the hull and etc. So, again, no.
Jon Murdock:
If you want to be a pirate, you work under the Cartel system. If you do not choose to work under the Cartel system, there are extensive lists of "missing" sentient beings who thought they could get by being freebooters without paying a franchise
You are going to have to accept that the Cartels are basically monopolies. You can be a pirate in Penzance Cartel controlled territory, and if you pay your Franchise the Cartel will allow you to operate in your leased territory to your heart's content, but you will have to follow the Cartel's rules.
And it all comes down to that need to protect the Cartel's logistics assets. Because you may be an independent just leasing a territory to operate in, but when you need to resupply, or get repairs, or replacement crewbeings, or trade your ill-gotten gains for easier to move specie, you go to a Cartel owned base. And, yes, as an independent you can drop your lease and move to another Cartel, but the Cartels do talk to each other, and if you left owing franchise fees to the Cartel, the Cartel you are trying to move into is likely to be told that you are a deadbeat, which will make it harder to get a Franchise in the new Cartel, and more likely that an enforcer is going to be looking for you.
The Cartels DO talk to each other. It is business, after all, and there is a form of diplomacy going on between the Capital (Dragon) Cartel and the Daven Cartel (as an example), even trade (how do you think the Penzance Cartel accesses drone racks, anti-drones, disruptors, fusion beams for its 10%? The Cartels trade, and Hamilcar gets plasma technology the same way).
As to endless coups, the Cartel lord has his own internal security, and spies (controls replacement crew). And he has ships that are owned by the Cartel to back the Enforcer (although obviously some times the enforcer has decided he wants to become the Lord).
As the saying goes "uneasy lies the head that wears a crown."
As to squeezing the independents, I am sure that happens (rulers make mistakes, and this is more likely to happen with a new Cartel Lord, just as it is more likely to happen when the Old King dies and the young greedy prince takes over). But the fact is that controlling the territory and doling it out and charging the Franchise fees is basic to how the Cartels operate (and not too different from how government operates, the Cartels, while businessmen, can be seen as governments in their own operations and relations with each other). So the fees for franchises are literally fairly stable simply because (as you noted) if Pharoah charges too much, the Independents will move to Dragon, Penzance, and Hamilcar, and the resulting reduction in franchise fees paid will impact Pharoah's bottom line.
And if a given independent is not making his franchise fees, and comes into dock for repairs, the Cartel may repossess his ship (whether he likes it or not), and the other Independents will know that the "repossession" was fair (failure to pay fees they are paying).
SPP:
Yeah, I do not disagree with any of that.
I imagine franchise negotiations are very intense. You hammer out a deal for an up-front or annual fee, the percentage the cartel lord gets from piracy and smuggling and probably other minor activities, where you have basing rights and can go for R&R, rate of repair costs, doe the Cartel do a scheduled pick up of the plunder, whether you can hire out for merc work, how much of a percentage you pay on that, whether you have to do certain favors for the Cartel Lord and how much such missions pay, whether the Cartel covers losses due to said missions, policy on stealing whole freighters, whether some corporations and colonies are off-limits because they pay the Cartel Lord a protection fee, etc.
I just posit there is a place for the oddball pirate with a lot of money not interested solely in piratical motives as long as those goals do not endanger the cartel lord or his or her profits.
Though again, it is not my universe.
Jon Murdock:
Age old problem: If you allow an exception to the rules, then there will be more exceptions to the rules, and the exception will become the rule.
A Cartel Lord cannot allow or sanction Jon Murdock operating outside of the Franchise system because that will cause Michael Grafton to ask why he has to toe the Cartel system line. It is in the end cheaper and more efficient to use one of various means (Crime team, enforcer cruiser, assassin among the crew, confiscation of the ship when it docks to a base, providing information to local law enforcement on how to find Jon Murdock's ship, etc.) to deal with Jon Murdock so that he is no longer an exception to the Cartel rules, and make it known to others that Jon Murdock is now one more example of why you do not cross the Cartel Lords.
I have, honestly, no doubt that Franchise fees are negotiated on a sliding scale. Based on an analysis by the Cartel's accountants of the merchant traffic in the lease area, the goods normally being moved, the forecast of "security operations" by the local empire, all leading to a calculated value of how much loot an "average" ship of the type should bring in, allowing all to make a hefty profit. (After all, as an independent you have to pay your crew, and may need to include bonuses to those who will actually board enemy ships. Then there are medical costs to be considered in addition to repair, replacement stores, etc., etc., etc.) And it might be further adjusted by intangibles, i.e., not just your previous record before you became a candidate to have your own ship and franchise, but what impression you made on the Cartel Lord. (And bear in mind that the impression you made on him could be important when you have gathered enough specie to upgrade to a larger ship, he may not trust you enough to sell you a larger ship, or he might arrange a discount or a different payment system ... things can go the other way too).
SPP:
I am not suggesting that independents operate entirely outside the franchise system. That would be, well, madness as you pointed out.
The examples I gave mostly operate within the franchise but are also involved in some extracurricular activities on the side that appeal to other motives then just pure profit (political, emotional, patriotism) but would not interfere with the overall goal of making money.
Realistically, there are a lot less rules and regulations in a Pirate/Mafia type organization. However the penalties for violating them are often far more severe.
I hope this doesn't sound too dumb, but I have a question about Orion Mercenary activities.
How is it a government can hire an Orion Cartel for mercenary work when the same government is trying to suppress Cartel activity? Do they try to hire from a Cartel that does NOT operate within their borders, and if so, how is it that THEY can make a business contact with that Cartel, but the empire where the Cartel DOES have its operations is so unable to deal with them?
Sure, I understand the idea of the Cartel being the ones to initiate contact, but THAT poses the question of how such an agent is able to do so without the various police intelligence agencies using that agents contacts to glean critical intelligence on the Cartel that operates in THEIR empire?
(Sheesh! I know what I WANT to say...)
JeffreyGA - you're forgetting that Intel Agencies (who do have a need for sneaking into other territories) don't -have- to share with law enforcement [basically left-hand/right-hand].
The 'favor' is in question may be NOT informing the LEOs of sensitive information (which most Lords/upper admin/intell will be trying to plug from their end).
JeffGA, it's like it was about 15 years ago, when the US was trying to keep Microsoft from gaining a monopoly... while buying the Microsoft OS for 99% of the computers on the government network.
Ideally you would deal with a cartel in your enemy's territory but even without it you could make it work. The cartels presumably have someone you can reach out to that they could let some spooks know.
The Merc negotiation agent would enter a discussion (probably not in person). Even if you do nab them they are a trained go-between that cannot disclose much. He or she cannot give away the location of the pirate bases or anything of that nature (though they may have visited them without knowing their location). If you do grab the agent you are probably not getting merc services for a long time and, if I were the Cartel Lord, I would plan some hits to hurt the intel agency or their government or military to punish them.
You make the deal. The pirates do the job. Generally pirates would do independent ops and would not be joining in fleet actions so the pirates do the raid or attack without the navy ever seeing the pirate ships.
There are exceptions. I think of the pirate squadron that the LDR hired on as part of their navy.
I remember an SFB campaign I played back in High School. The Orion player in the cartel in my space thought that mercenary activity was more profitable then piracy. I hired his two ships to assist in putting down an NPC planet (LDR ships iirc). There were two small LDR ships. I brought four of my ships. I convinced the pirate player he should head in just ahead. He was about two hexes in front of me and, while we were still on approach I had my ships centerline alphastrike the pirates crippling both ships. I then killed them and then took out the LDR squadron and did not have to worry about piracy in my empire for a long time. No pirate should have agreed to those terms.
Jon Murdock:
While it might offend some, intelligence is always a dirty job. Your intelligence agencies are going to have contacts with criminal organizations because they can do things that cannot be done openly, and as such provide deniability.
That does mean there will be trusted contacts, and unreliable ones.
If you need to smuggle guns to the insurgents on that Klingon colony, a reliable Orion smuggler can get the job done and the Hegemony can deny all knowledge.
If you need a particular SAMS station taken offline to slip a Prime Trader by, the pirate captain does not need to know why he is being contracted for the job, the money is good.
There are always going to be contacts, until all species evolve to the point that there is no greed, and everyone is happy with what they have.
SPP, that's planned foe the third … wait, make that the fifteenth of Never (hmmm, not sure on the year yet, either).
Pirates aren't going to try to knock over Fort Knox very often....and if they do make that mistake, the captain will most likely be relieved of command (and their life) before the ships pass a point that they can't disengage.
If you don't live....it is unprofitable. If your ship gets laid up for three months of repairs....it isn't profitable. If you weren't worried about profit....why are you a pirate???
IRC a Red Fur's Run that I played. It didn't make it out of the first battle b/c I (Fed) made it where the PFT wouldn't be able to disengage. You can see where my long terms strategy was going to go. The person I was playing against did get an amazing haul; but they wouldn't have had much of a fleet left by the time they got back to the cluster.
There are some extremely high-profit runs worth risking ship damage for or the only Orion scenarios would be the ones where they get caught or ambushed. If the prize is good enough you can risk six months in dock or even death. Especially if the officers and crew are desperate.
Take, for example, an Orion attack on a Border Base (pick an empire, it does not matter).
The Orion ships involved can be those specifically owned by the Cartel (the Cartel Lord has ordered the hit, determined that risking damage to the Cartel's property is worth it to him for whatever his reasons are ... which might be that a neighboring empire has offered a really good price or other thing of value for the hit).
The Orion ships involved might all be independents, marshaled by the Cartel Lord for various reasons. Ship Captain A was offered a very good payment and perhaps a free refit in the Cartel's yards on top of it. Ship Captain B is behind in his franchise payments, and this is an opportunity to make payment by doing this favor for the Cartel Lord. Ship Captain C is a Cartel owned ship, there to supervise the other two.
In either case (or any other cases involving pirates) "Glory" has nothing to do with it. It is all about the filthy lucre in one way or another.
There is an existing scenario, for example, where Orions attack a Klingon base because the Cartel Lord's (Daven if I recall correctly) son is a prisoner there.
Jon- I know there are times....I was saying that when there isn't a DANG good reason (as SPPs example of the Cartel Lord's son)- the crew is going to pick a new captain. They want to see the PROFIT in things. If the Cartel Lord makes it worth their while- sure. If Red Fur could do things and get the run through with profit....great. They don't just go knocking themselves out on a poorly planned attack without GOOD financial reason. The example in the LDR you gave didn't show any.
The upshot is that of all the reasons an Orion might do something, Glory, Altruism, Patriotism are among the least likely.
Note, I say the least likely, because fiction is full of exceptions. You can write a story, and create a scenario, where the captain of a particular Orion ship may find himself in a circumstance where one of those (or some other one) has moved him. Of course in such case, he would doubtless not be telling the crew his real reasons for what they are doing and may be accepting his own death to do so. He is not telling the crew that the ship is defending his home planet (a minor colony), he just says he has negotiated a mercenary contract (altruism and loyalty rearing their, to an Orion, ugly heads, it helps sell if the crew is unaware it is his home planet, just one of the reasons you never tell your crew where you came from).
Steve Cain: Oh, I agree that the player who agreed to that raid in the LDR was making a mistake. I took advantage of it and broke the power of the Orions near me in that campaign for a long time. He was so convinced that merc work was easy money that he would take any assignment even such an obvious trap as the one I set.
SPP: I agree for the most part though with a sufficiently charismatic leader I could see a pirate crew going along with those ideals openly. While making profit for the crew is critical a captain that gives the crew something to be proud of like an ideal or a cause can inspire loyalty a simple paycheck cannot. My experiences with organized criminals in my youth (was not one but was in a weird position to to know a lot of them) is that even those who should be the adult rational ones were adolescent or even childish in their antics. Part of it was an almost humorous obsession with how they were not actually good people. They would try to foster this self-image from religion or charitable giving or sometimes just self-delusion.
I think you are a very smart and calculating man and project too much of how you would pirate to how crooks would pirate and I do not think they are all that smart and calculating. This is meant as a compliment. 
I had been wondering if I had asked about the Orions and the "lost empires" of SFB Module C6 in this thread before, and it turns out that I did... back in 2014.
Still, now that it's been some time since C6 was published, I was curious as to what the current thinking (if any) was on how those weapons which the Orions are allowed to use "historically" (disruptor cannons and quantum wave torpedoes) work when used by the Orions themselves, and what kind of challenges Orion players have found when facing Paravian or Carnivon opposition.
Of the two, it would appear that the QWT has the makings of a good "pirate" weapon, in that it can be used to wear down a target's shields without too much risk of scoring too many unprofitable internals, and can be re-armed relatively quickly. (Perhaps the Zosmans might find it similarly useful, if it turns out that the Paravians of Omega used QWTs also.) Although I wonder if DCs might be more useful on an "enforcer" ship, be it used to assassinate patrolling navy or police ships or to keep "sub-contracting" Orion ships in line.
It's worth noting that both available weapon types require warp power to be overloaded, which can be an issue for the Paravians and Carnivons themselves (as neither empire uses auxiliary warp reactors on their warships). Of course, that's less of a problem for Orions using engine doubling...
The QWT is the wonder weapon.
I HOPE when X2 (or late X) comes out, the Gorns and Roms somehow get their plasma differentiated.
So one team gets "Wire Guided" Plasma, the other QWT replacing F torps, whatever.
ACTUALLY, QWT would be a great thing for the ISC to think about in their F tube mounts.
The QWT has its good points and bad. In Mass they are WOW. In a duel not so much. In Mass they can take down shields and force ships to maneuver around them. Making it much harder to just plow thru them. On the down side they cost like Disrupters to arm and overload. They can be held but only time you do that is start of a battle when at long range.
In a duel a smart player runs thru the QWTs and Mugs you in the corner.
QWTs have no direct fire option and so speed vs them can work. WWs are a bad idea. However Romulan cloak is fantastic.
So add a Carronade fucntion to the QWT.
Just make "little plasma" more varied.
So a Plasma P (protective) that shoots a plasma D for 1 energy
a Plasma Q that fires QWT with Sabot and Carronade options
A Plasme T that fires L torps with "wire guidance"
IIRC, there are ALL kinds of odd "simulator" plasma thingys.
While I understand the desire to make QWTs more like traditional plamsa torps, they are different.
Also, the Carronade isn't for all plasmas; it's only an alternate mode for the Plasma-F. It can't be used with Plasma-A, Plasma-B, Plasma-D, Plasma-E, Plasma-G, Plasma-K, Plasma-L (okay, my memory isn't that good; maybe it can be used here), Plasma-M, Plasma-R, Plasma-S, or Plasma-V. (BTW: are there any "Big Plasma Letters" I missed? )
In all seriousness, IIRC, a QWT is a one turn arming weapon and the Carronade function (and the "Two-Turn-Eff") firing options are meant as an optional way for Big Plasma to get around the problem with the long arming cycle (and, to a lesser degree for the Carronade, help the Gorn deal with Cloaked Romulans; something few Cartels need worry about).
Plasma-Ls may also carronade (XFP14.0).
As for quantum wave torpedoes, I wouldn't mind a sabot (Speed-40) option for a would-be X-QWT, but I'd be wary of providing too many other options to this weapon.
For what little it may be worth, I'd keep the QWT a Paravian and Orion - and occasional WYN - weapon only in the Alpha Octant. In the Omega Octant, were the Paravians of Omega to also use QWTs, I'd let the Zosman Marauders gain access to them. Plus, given that the Omega-Paravians later gain access to Ymatrian antiproton weapons historically, that might be a more viable way to provide them with more dangerous direct-fire options, rather than modifying the QWT itself.
Dinno. You'd think someone would figure out how to make QWT.
ISC for their aft F mounts would be pretty appropriate.