I could do this with a few Romulan WE...speed 21 ships...and get 24 or 25 movement for all of them in a turn. Is that really how we want this rule to work?

Having ships moving much faster than they even have the warp power to move using psuedo tractor tricks to cause actual movement over and above any possible speed the ship could legally have?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 03:26 pm: Edit

Charles H Carroll:

If the enemy is so weak that the only plasma they can launch is countered this way they have pretty much already lost the battle. You are (to me, I may well be wrong) asking an extremely straitened question. You have enough ships to pull this maneuver, but the enemy only has plasma to threaten one (1) of the ships such that all of the other ships can help the one ship.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Look at the second comment I made Steve...this game is based on the idea that a ship can only move the number of warp it has. But I can actually move a fleet of speed 21 ships...the whole fleet at speed 25.

And that does not make anything weak. That makes the game broken.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 03:53 pm: Edit

How much power are they each spending to max movement and power several tractors? Is it broken in that light?

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 03:55 pm: Edit

If you fight the same opponent on a regular basis, I see it as a "One Trick Pony"...even after the one turn it's used, their tactics will change....
More than likely resulting in later battles turning into knife fights, rather than maneuver....

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 04:07 pm: Edit

Ginger....power for tractors does not come from warp. So how does a none movement amount of power change your ships speed to more than it can do?

And Mark...sure tactics change but how much can a Torp using race change? Charge in and we got him now...nope...he did a HET and ran away at speed 32 effective for 15 impulses. Or for enough to degrade the torp.

Or he is coming in at speed 20....nothing much to worry about...no speed change...and suddenly he moves 2 hexes when he can only move 1. Then does it again...and is now in overload range. All without a speed change.

Then does it again...and again...and...

This is a broken rule. Admittedly it is a fleet only rule. Single combat it does not apply. But this makes it where warp power output does not have to equal movement at all. And that is wrong.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 04:09 pm: Edit

And last point with this...the rules was designed to allow you to get a much better turn ability....drop speed to a lower speed and you can turn much sooner.

Not drop speed to a lower speed and go much faster.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 04:22 pm: Edit

While that Tactic sucks when one is the person with the Plasma on imp31 at range 1 and the player tractors each other then gains a move on imp1. Then moves 4 more impulses and out runs the torps. For the tractoring player it was Whew I just saved my ships internals.

Now the problem of my speed 21 max WEs. 2 for shields 1 for life support and 1 for fire control (needed for tractors) 2 for the Plasma R either RD ,holding as a S, or reloading. WE has 20 warp 6 imp. So you would have to burn BTTY or not arm soothing to get the tractor energy. I also have 1 tractor so can do it once. So I gain what 2 hexes 1 for each ship? I have better uses for that power. Unless it is a emergency and could save me time over the turn break to shoot a drone with a cycled phaser or some such.

Plasma is about putting Your Plasma were He wants to be.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Charles H. Carroll:

Out of curiosity (I am asking honestly here, there is no attempt at anything else), how many times have you pulled this off successfully in a game? How many battles have you actually won doing this? If you are not successfully winning battles with it, then the game is not broken. And doing it with War Eagles does beg the question that Gregory S. Flusche is asking (and he beat me to it because I was unsure if you were really making the case that you were using this tactic to win battles with War Eagles because you are pretty much tying up almost all of your power meaning your opponent is hitting you with phasers that he is rearming constantly in addition to plasma torpedoes).

I mean, this sounds like a "thought experiment" (this is not meant in any derogatory manner, thought experiments are frequently where tactics begin developing), so the question is how often have you pulled this off successfully and won the battle, not been defeated because your opponent was using his power differently?

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Gregory....with 2 ships...I get at least two extra moves per ship. Even with just one tractor each...but with other ships...I just grabbed them out of thin air because they have no real warp. But lets make it any normal cruiser with two tractors. For two points of power...I can make two ships...get not 1...not 2...not 3...but 4....extra moves a turn. So put in 20 points of movement. And get 24 for 2 ships....each paying 2 points of none warp power from tractors. Spread out across the turn. NOT at the end of the turn. The whole turn. It can increase even more with more ships. So this is a broken rule.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 04:58 pm: Edit

Charles H. Carroll:

At this point you are overstating because you are making the claim for movement cost 1 ships. A point of non-warp power is equivalent to three hexes of movement for a typical frigate, two hexes of movement for a typical destroyer, five hexes of movement for a fast patrol ship, six hexes of movement for an Interceptor, and four hexes of movement for Snipes and some other movement cost 0.25 ships. There are also of course some movement cost 0.75 and 0.83 ships. And, yes, dreadnoughts (1.50), light dreadnoughts (1.25) and battleships (2.00) were they allowed to appear in numbers would also be able to gain this benefit.

So you are working on a narrowly defined circumstance, and again I ask how many battles have you actually won with this concept such that you can declare this a "broken rule."

Edit: Let me add that to gain this benefit you are moving away from the enemy rather than toward them, and yes you could use this to shorten the range faster to bring your own plasma into play.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 05:54 pm: Edit

Hi Steve lol. Ok...here is what I am seeing constantly in a Campaign game that is strictly following this rule.

I have seen multiple games, where torps that had to hit a ship which was moving at a set speed too low to outrun the torp, manages to either completely out run a torp...as in starts running away with say 10 impulses left in the turn, and only have 7 or 8 moves that should happen...so the torp is going to hit. But...doesnt. Because of these tricks. You get to the last imp. Tractor again...and...you picked up 3 imp this turn and 1 next and are now gone.

Or it simply reduces the power of the torp be getting several extra moves where it drops from 10 to 5...or from 5 to 1. I saw a 50 point R get completely outrun by adding 3 moves from tractor tricks and getting into the next turn. When it should have taken almost max damage.

So in general, where we are really seeing this, is because it is fleet engagements, and you can grab your team mate...slow down for two impulses. But now move both impulses even though you cannot legally do that other than with this...trick. And then do a legit speed change maybe. Or simply be running fast enough to move far enough so the next time you need this done the other ship does it. Then if you need it again...you can do it again. And of course then we get the end of the turn save which is what was supposed to be the time this actually applied.

Anyway, it is totally making torps for Paravians, Gorns, Roms, and anyone who uses limited range seeking weapons either unable to hit even when the ship is not moving fast enough to avoid it. Because of multiple ships, and multiple speed changes caused by the tractoring, and adding in actual speed changes of minor effect, you can move a ship that is the target 3 or 4 extra hexes to totally avoid a torp.

And since we should all agree, that if you cannot power the move, you cannot make the move. Especially when you are not actually adding any movement power to your move at all. A tractor is standard power. Not warp nor impulse. Yet it is creating warp level movement. And yes a ship that tractors another ship and puts warp and 1 imp in...can make the other ship move faster. But what happens when neither ship is supplying movement power...but both ships go faster. Because that is what this misuse of the tractor fake movement rule does. Your ship moves once then moves again. Both are the same speed but pick up a movement. And again....and again....all without any power applied that can move a ship.

And I have a serious issue with the misuse of the rule like this.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 05:59 pm: Edit

Oh and there is a rule under speed change that discusses this.

You cannot use speed changes in such a way as to get more movement than the power you apply. As in you cannot move 20 hexes for 19 power.

Yet with tractor tricks you can move more hexes easily. All without movement power applied. The rule was to be sure you did not lose a movement because of the tractor. Not give you extra movements.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 06:07 pm: Edit

Oh lol and to ad insult to injury...not only are you going faster than you paid for, but...you can turn a lot quicker too.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 06:11 pm: Edit

Tractor tricks do have a penalty, friendly units getting tractored lose fire control benefits if I recall. This would prevent the tractored unit from tractoring (among other things) other units at least for a time.

It's been a while since I read the exact rules so I could be wrong but I'd think that would complicate this tactic. I'd also think it'd drain the batteries of WEs which is problematic on later turns if one wants to keep their speed up.

Anywho I don't personally see this as a problem that really needs rectifying. YMMV.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 06:25 pm: Edit

Richard So long as a friendly unit tractors you it does mess with your FC. But if the idea is just to run away from a torp and...you have to remember that this is to gain an extra movement which does that. Then you drop the tractor after both ships have moved the two moves they get. So firing at that moment is not going to happen. But once tractor is dropped...FC is back.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 07:12 pm: Edit

If a ship is speed zero and a friendly ship tractors him, then the tractored ship will indeed be moved faster than amount of warp allocated for movement (0 of course). I do not see the problem. The tractoring ship still moves slower than his allocated warp. Still no problem.

If three ships of equal size were tractored together, the pseudo speed for each ship is 1/3 movement. Using a nice example:

Ship 1 moves 27 - pseudo speed of 9.
Ship 2 moves 21 - pseudo speed of 7.
Ship 3 moves 15 - pseudo speed of 5.

According to the impulse chart, none of the 3 ships moves on the same impulse (save for 32). This means that the group moves 19 times in total. I do not see a problem.

Note that if each of the 3 ships were moving 27, then the pseudo speed of the group is indeed 9. A lot different than the mixed speed example. It is better not to tractor each other! Unless one ship really needed to meet its turn mode at speed 9 rather than at 27.

I would be interested in seeing your example. Fractional movement gives me a headache though.

"Alls I know" is that a fractional movement ship has a lot of trouble towing a larger ship, not to mention 2 larger ships. I.E. it really slows down.

(I hope my values are the same as the "tractor table". It gives me a headache as well.)

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 07:45 pm: Edit

And very reasonable...ok...lets go with this...

2 ships...same size...same speed. impulse 15...ships going speed 20. ships move, then tractor each other. Ships slow down to speed 10. Impulse 16 both speed 10 ships are scheduled to move.

But since tractored...only one ship moves this imp. Other ship delays movement. So on 10 one tractored ship moves...dragging second ship. On 11....20 does not move. But...the speed 10 second ship now moves. Then it drops tractor. Now they are speed 20...and move again. Ok so...speed 20... Move, Move, dont move, move. Now because of tractoring...Move move move move. Not a single missed move because of tractoring and they slowed down. Which meant they increased speed...both of them by 1 hex. And it cost no movement energy. Just tractor powered by any source at the start or by a bat which could be warp or not warp.

So what you are seeing is a slowing down of two ships...which caused them to permanently gain 1 hex of movement this turn. Now...do this again...then again...then the last time possible. And you gained 4 hexes of movement. This is with cruisers which have 2 tractors each. You have to time it right of course.

The point is...they are slowing down to speed up. And not paying any movement cost.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 09:21 pm: Edit

Not a good example, for it to happen, each ship will need four tractors (and four power/batteries). Now two Lyran CA/CCs could do this (four tractors and four batteries) but they don't face plasma that often …

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 09:44 pm: Edit

Sorry Stewart but you are wrong. Each ship needs 2 tractors. They are not simo tractoring each other. One tractors the other....then after two impulses of movement...drops tractor.

Next time...the other tractors the first one.

Next time the first tracs the second.

And last the 2nd retracs the first.

So 4 tractors total. Tractored 4 times. Each time leading to a speed increase of one Hex because both ships are going in the same direction.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, April 08, 2020 - 10:15 pm: Edit

Assuming that the required 4 impulses occurs when one ship is released before its fire control recovers and it can tractor the other ship. Each of the four times. Dunno if the impulse chart cooperates with this.

If a WE is going 21, that's 6 for the tractors and fire control, life support and shields, and presumably at least two (and actually 5 if fired) for the Plasma-R for 32 power which would leave the WE with empty batteries and presumes no other power expenditures.

This would seem to result in enemy ships being able to close during the WE's rearm period and limit it to around speed 13 if it wants to charge plasma and fill batteries over the next two turns.

I'm dubious that this is a better idea than just cloaking out.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 01:19 am: Edit

Richard lol...I got you. And as the Torpedo user. This is not very helpful. The problem is it is used against people with drones and with torpedoes. But mostly with torpedoes since they lose power as the move. So at range 10 it hits for 10 points...at range 11 it hits for less. And slowing down, because of a tractor should mean gasp...you got hit. Instead it means...you sped up and stayed ahead of the torp for at least one move. So it dropped from 10 to 5. Or from 5 to 1.

And you did not have to do this when you could legally make a speed change. You did not have to do this and pay any Warp power nor impulse power. And you also gained the ability to turn at a much lower speed rate.

You are looking at it from the wrong end of this. From the torp user trying to do this. This is being done by the torp victim to negate or totally outrun torps. Or to gain a couple of hexes of movement and then on the last impulse be facing away because of the turn rate modifier for slower speed. But also having stayed ahead of the torp till the end. And so on 31...you trac your friendly ship. Now you move on 32 and he moves on 1 and during EA you move what ever speed is required to just walk off and leave the torp behind after gaining multiple hexes of movement last turn making all this possible without ever having payed one single point of warp for the increased speed.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 01:39 am: Edit

Ok maybe this will help people see why this is bad for everyone.

Example. You are moving at a high enough speed that you cannot turn to save your life even if you slow down from a being tractored.

Some one drops t bombs....multiples in front of your ships. Oh no we cannot avoid them. They are directly ahead. We can sideslip once but that just means it hits a side front shield cause we cannot turn because we just did.

No problem. Tractor ship 2 from ship one. Tractor ship 3 from ship 4. We slow down and are to move next imp. Side slip. Drag other ship with us.

Still screwed right? Nope....other ship next imp that was dragged...side slips legally. He has technically not moved yet. Suddenly...you are two hexes to the left or right. T bombs? We dont see no stinkin t bombs. And off you go. Dropping tractor, speed restored and Fire Control back up fully.

By Daniel Eastland (Democratus) on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 09:14 am: Edit

I agree that it is screwy and could use a patch. Two ships moving slow should not move faster because they are tractoring each other.

The question is whether it's worth an overhaul of the rules to address this.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Thursday, April 09, 2020 - 09:50 am: Edit

---

Quote:

The question is whether it's worth an overhaul of the rules to address this.

---