"It seems that this setup highlights a problem which the pre-Smarba Romulans had on the Gorn front ever since the latter developed tactical warp - unless they were able to use a mask, veil, or cloak to get close enough to a target planet to land on it and point their launchers skyward before the Gorns knew what was going on (as shown in one of the Y-module scenarios), the Romulans would run the risk of being caught flat-footed while still in open space. In an operational sense, one might argue that the Romulans have already "lost" at this point - and to be fair, the hedgehog tactic didn't work out too well for them in the long run either."
Gary you hit on what i was thinking about when i proposed this tactical situation. How did the Romulans survive it as well as attack the Gorns as they did start the wars. I do like Steve's idea of having the Gorn installation on the map.
It looked more like a slow degradation of the Romulans force to me then a stalemate. As the gorns can pull off and do more repair then the Romulans. As well has having more power to reinforce.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, December 18, 2014 - 11:35 pm: Edit

Actually, I wonder how things might go in an equivalent match-up between "sublight" Warbirds and Hawks in FC (based on the rules for non-tactical warp combat in that game system) versus the Middle Years Gorn ships presented in Briefing #2.

(For those who haven't seen it, FCB2 does not include any pre-Smarba hulls, but does offer the first "post-Smarba" Romulan Eagles, as well as the early unrefitted Kestrels - along with the "pre-war" Gorn ships they might have tried to pick the odd fight with at that point in time.)


Gregory:

Short of going out and getting the SFB Early Years modules (which are very interesting in their own right), two relevant files to consider are "Warp Factors and Space Movement" (an extract from GURPS Prime Directive 4th Edition) and the Alpha Octant timeline PDF - both of which posted to the historical downloads section of the ADB website.

In terms of operational movement (or how many hexes a ship can move "normally" in a given six-month Federation and Empire turn), an Early Warp ship is faster than a NTW ship, while a "modern" (TL 12) ship is faster still. Plus, "modern" warp drives allow ships to use "dash" warp (strategic movement in F&E terms), which compound the advantages possessed by the operating empire at that level of campaign.

Despite the cloak (and its Early Years predecessors, the mask and veil) and the use of heavy plasma torpedoes to try to even the odds, the pre-Smarba Romulans were sitting ducks - be it tactically, operationally, or strategically - against any tactical warp-powered empire with the means and motivation to go after them.

Fortunately for them, they lucked out when it came to their collection of neighbours. The Klingons were on the verge of launching a full-scale campaign of conquest (and this with Early Years ships like the D3 and D4 - and before the Romulans developed most of their early counter-measures against warp-powered opponents) and were only saved through the arrival of the Holdfast sphere. (For their part, the Tholians were in no position to launch an invasion of their own, much as their ancestors in the home galaxy might have been tempted to do.)

The Federation stuck to the letter of the treaty which had ended the first Fed-Romulan War, and had no data on what was to be found over on the far side of the Neutral Zone. (The Orion "Pirate Kingdoms" were a major problem for the Romulans, and took decades to root out... but then, one could argue that the Orion infestation of Romulan space never truly ended.)

It's no coincidence that, of the four wars fought between the Gorns and Romulans prior to the General War (as listed in the timeline PDF), all three of those fought after the Gorns developed tactical warp resulted in victory for the Confederation. Indeed, had it not been for the "Paravian Guilt" over what had happened due to that pesky Sun Snake, the Gorns might well have taken more decisive steps in putting an end to Romulan space-faring ambitions. (But then, getting the notorously stingy Confederation Assembly to fund the bugetary requirements needed to mount a full-scale conquest of the Romulan Star Empire might have been a challenge under any circumstances...)

And while the ISC had developed its unified Navy and Police by the Y80s, they were still too far away to know that the Romulans (or Gorns) even existed. That time would not come until after the Treaty of Smarba would be signed...

...unless one counts the various "Mapsheet P" alternate timelines presented in Module C6, that is.


Actually, it's probably just as well that the Treaty of Smarba was signed when it historically was. Had the Romulans been left to stumble their way through the various stages of tactical warp development by themselves, the Empire would have provided a virtual bonanza for the Andromedans to seize upon. Offering that kind of beach-head to the Andros on a plate might have pushed the balance of the subsequent invasion from "critical" to "terminal" across a vast swathe of the Alpha Octant - or, at least, have obliged the neighbouring powers to fight their way across (former) Romulan space in order to expel the invaders.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Friday, December 19, 2014 - 05:08 pm: Edit

Gary thank you for the links. I have read he warp factors before. The time line is expanded a lot over the one i have. I do agree that the Romulans were lucky in that the Tholians showed up when they did. The fact that the Gorns are not an expansionist race. Only interested in protecting them selves was lucky as well

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, December 19, 2014 - 06:06 pm: Edit

The Gorns are "expansionist," they simply are not expansionist in the sense of conquest. They want to move into "empty" space. That is why they have an "exploration zone." Same thing for the Federation.

Historically the Romulan sublight ships could not penetrate deeply into Gorn space, so the "wars" tended to be in the Gorn's "border" regions and not real threats to the Gorn's core areas. When you read of a Romulan invasion of Gorn space in these wars, it pretty much does not get beyond the line of Gorn bases along the neutral zone. The Romulans gain initial ground simply because they have "the initiative" (they have decided when and where their invasion will take place) and their "perceived level of threat" to the Gorn Senate. This latter is telling.

The Gorn senate has always been a "penny-wise, pound-foolish" organization all through Gorn Confederation history. The upshot is that before the Romulans got tactical warp there were not a whole heck of a lot of Gorn ships (no perceived threat, so the Senate saw no need to keep a lot of Gorn military forces around and the available numbers of patrolling Gorn ships was far less than say those of even the Federation for a given sector of front). Thus from the Senate's point of view there would always be time to mobilize if the Romulans attacked and take effective action long before the Romulans could penetrate very deeply into Gorn space. (Might be rough on a few colonies too near Romulan space, and maybe for some of the personnel on the bases and on ships trying to protect those colonies and bases before the rest of the fleet could be mobilized and redeployed, but look at all the money we are saving by not having more ships!)

The upshot is that the average Gorn crewman was probably much better than his Romulan opposite number (simply because the smaller Gorn fleet could be more selective about who was allowed to join at all and who would be promoted or released from service). The Romulans had more ships and thus more manpower, but once the Gorn Fleet reached "the fighting front" tactical warp would allow the Gorns to mass against one Romulan offensive thrust at a time with superior numbers at the point of conflict, effectively ignoring all other thrusts until they defeated the current one and then racing on to the next one.

In effect, Warp gave the Gorns the equivalent of "interior lines" and allowed them to defeat the Romulans in detail when they attacked.

Now, this was backed by the Gorn desire not to again commit "Genocide" as happened with the Paravians. The Romulans, however, did not know this, and could convince themselves that each subsequent peace deal with the Gorns represented the Gorns themselves being "exhausted" by the fighting, which in turn told the Romulans that "next time we will beat them, and they cannot beat us."

Had the Romulans instead attacked the Federation after they achieved warp power as frequently as the Gorns, say in Y110 when they planned to but did not, the Federation would have used its warp powered ships to drive all the way to Romulus and Remus and demand peace, and left the Romulans a much reduced empire with much reduced resources. The Federation would not regard this as conquest, but self defense. They are not influenced by what happened to the Paravians. The history of the entire Alpha Octant would have been very different had the Romulans attacked the Federation in Y110.

There would be other repercussions. The Gorns might not have found themselves willing to trust an "empire" that had conquered the Romulans, but the Federation with control of Romulan space might have been too powerful for the Klingons to attack. The upshot might have seen the major powers (less the Romulans) much weaker over all when the Andromedans arrived.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, December 19, 2014 - 06:28 pm: Edit

A recent issue of Captain's Log mentioned the concept of "puppet rulers" (akin to Vichy France) as a proposed idea for future consideration in Federation and Empire. Such a client could be set up by a victorious empire in a portion of enemy occupied territory.

I wonder if, rather than try to annex Romulan space outright, the Federation might have instead sought to set up a "de-Imperialized" Romulan client state? Would such a state continue to use Romulan hull designs, or would their fleet yards be converted to support the use of Star Fleet hulls instead? And would a broader alliance, akin to NATO or the Warsaw Pact, emerge across the eastern portion of the Alpha Octant as a result?

(That might make for an interesting what-if alternate to the Imperial Klingon Marches scenario which has been offered in the past.)

-----

And in the case of the Andromedans, would a less heavily militarized region of space not have had the opportunity to devote more of the resources it yet had available to investigate these new arrivals, or perhaps even to uncover the RTN earlier than had happened historically?

In Alpha, Omega, and the LMC, the Andros benefited from the distractions which their would-be victims provided one another - both in providing the window of opportunity needed to install a critical mass of Rapid Transit Network nodes, and in presenting the ability to open each new theatre of invasion after the locals had already exhausted themselves against one another in the latest rounds of local or regional conflicts.

(Of those known powers which could perhaps have learned the truth behind the early Andromedan operations in the Milky Way and have been in a position to have done something useful with this knowledge, the Chlorophons' efforts to investigate the new arrivals in the Fourth and Fifth Cycles were ultimately thwarted by the Association being dragged into the Second Great War, while the ISC were far too busy worrying about the General War belligerents to turn their considerable resources towards answering the Andromedan question.)

Might a set of less mutually hostile powers in the region have been better able to perhaps disrupt the building of the RTN before it was ready to go, and thus have put the brakes on an Octant-wide invasion before it even started?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, December 20, 2014 - 11:59 am: Edit

Gary Carney:

The Andromedan campaign historically depended on, and was ultimately defeated by, internal strife. The fact that all of the major powers were fighting each other created a distraction.

No one had time to go looking for Andromedans during the General War, all resources were devoted to fighting the known enemy, and Andromedan ships did not always attack. Often they did not attack at all, but if spotted, simply left. Going after them would be like diverting resources to look for and attack Jindarian caravans which sometimes mounted attacks also.

The disruption of the General War and subsequent ISC pacification allowed the Andromedans to establish themselves.

The reason it led to their defeat also is that all of the empires had massive resources of trained manpower and production lines set up to build ships, the same situation in essence that existed in the Magellanic Cloud. The ultimate difference between the Cloud and here was the GSC finding the link between the Satellite Bases and the Transit Network, which allowed the Galactic Powers to realize there were not all that many Andromedan ships, and to take the offensive. Without that discovery the Andromedans probably would have won despite the advantages the Galactics had (as they won in the Magellanic Cloud).

A Federation "conquest" of the Romulan Star Empire in Y110 to about Y115 would probably have seen the Romulan Star Empire reduced to a very small enclave around Romulus and Remus, ultimately lacking the resources to rebuild in the face of Federation occupation of the surrounding space. There are, however, unknowns.

When do the Romulans attempt to negotiate a peace? When the Federation forces first penetrate into Romulan space? When the Federation occupies the provinces on the border? When the first Federation strike enters one of the Romulan capital hexes?

When the Romulans attempt to negotiate peace, how "war weary" were the Federation member planets? Would they see this as the opportunity to put an end to the Romulan threat permanently and press on, or would they take the short-sighted view of ending the war now on a less than absolute victory note? Would the Federation, after having been attacked by the Romulans before be willing to return Romulan territory conquered with Federation blood to get peace? (Short answer, the Federation is still occupying regions of space that the Kzintis consider theirs, similar for the Klingons.)

Given Federation predilections, a short war would probably see the Romulans reduced to an enclave (the Federation would not want a prolonged "occupation" of the Romulan planets, but might want to see the vicious Romulans disarmed until "enlightened trade" could make them worthy to join the United Federation of Planets in their own right).

Depending on how things worked out with the Gorns, this could see the "Four Powers War" actually brought to a halt by Federation "threats of force" because the Klingons would not be able to contact a powerful Romulan empire as a counter balance to draw off Federation ships.

The result of that might be an overall militarily much weaker Alpha Octant (the stronger economically and militarily Federation while not mobilized becomes something the Klingons cannot risk antagonizing by starting other wars, and thus cannot go on a separate build up because they lack the Romulans as a balance).

This might in turn have led to more resources being available to investigate the Andromedans when they began showing up. Depending on whether or not those resources found the link between the bases and the RTN would determine other issues. However, if the link was not found, the Andromedan invasion might actually start earlier (in the Y180s) against a relatively peaceful Alpha octant that overall had fewer ships and fewer trained crews to man new production ships, and . . . well you can see where that might go.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Saturday, December 20, 2014 - 06:02 pm: Edit

This has given me a much better understanding of why the Romulans survived until they could get warp tech. Also every one seems to agree that the prewarp romulan ships are at a horrible disadvantage vs those with warp. Even vs the pre +refits by given races. The tactical thing i was asking about.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, December 20, 2014 - 06:43 pm: Edit

Gregory S. Flusche:

The Romulans in pre-warp are a different tactical paradigm.

Are they doomed to lose?

Anyone is going to lose if the odds are stacked to heavily against them. But the Romulans present a different tactical puzzle to solve rather than just running in at full speed. There is a different skillset needed to overcome and conquer.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Sunday, February 15, 2015 - 08:50 pm: Edit

Tactics: Year 175 Romulan VS Gorn Open Map. Forces do not have CO's what would you buy. The Gorn are down about 20 BPV. I am including no. of plasma and type so the forces can be compared.

Romulan:545 total BPV
2-KE (280 BPV) 2PL-R 4pl-F 8-phaser I
2-BH (170 bpv) 4pl-G 8-phaser I
1-WH (60 bpv) 4-phaser I
5-GII ftr (35 bpv) 5pl-F

Gorn: 526 total BPV
1-BC (160 BPV) 2Pl-S 8-phaser I
1-CDD (132 BPV) 1Pl-S 8-phaser I
2-HDD+ (234 BPV) 2pl-S 10-phaser I

What kind of tactics would You use.

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 02:34 pm: Edit

For proper comparison, remember that each Gorn cruiser has a pair of plas-F in the wings as well as the main plasma you've listed.
As for tactics, what's the objective?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 05:12 pm: Edit

The King eagles have 2plas F as well.
OBJECTIVE: Gorn Intercepting Romulan force crossing into Gorn space on a raid. Open space (floating map) The Gorn Force may not allow the Romulan force to disengage by separation until turn 10. If any Romulan ship with more then 1/2 expendable ordnance left are can repair all damage by D9.4. Disengage by separation the Romulan player gains 1/4 of the ships BPV added to the Players Victory points. The Gorn gains no points for the ship disengaging. Standard victory conditions apply beyond the above.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 05:14 pm: Edit

This is all part of a game i am playing with a friend here. He is rather new so wants so help.

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 06:28 pm: Edit

IMHO the Romulan is hosed. There's a disadvantage in range, since the type-Ss have longer legs than all but two of the Roms' torps. That, along with the objective, would encourage them to sneak past under cloak, then come up for air and run like the dickens, lobbing plasma over their shoulder as the Gorn try to catch up. But the Gorns' speed advantage, coupled with their front phaser arcs to shoot down incoming F-torps, means that just isn't feasible.

By Patrick H. Dillman (Patrick) on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 06:41 pm: Edit

Do not forget that each of the King Eagles, Battle Hawks and War Hawk have a NSM already included in their BPV. Under run and kick the mines out the back, then uncloak and get lizards to chase.

By Troy J. Latta (Saaur) on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 07:23 pm: Edit

Hidden mine deployment is an optional rule. Using standard rules the Gorns will easily slip around the NSMs without setting them off.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Wednesday, February 18, 2015 - 07:53 pm: Edit

no hidden mine placement. Basic ECM as well. Now what if the Roms stay and fight? Can easily cloak at low speed plasma losses tracking. Now then Gorn could run over but then all those plasma F from the fighters.
As well as a mine field. 5 Nsm and how many T-bombs did teh Rom buy?

By Bob Brailsford (Bbrailsford) on Thursday, March 05, 2015 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Always that as a Romulan you get to decide when you disengage by separation. Just get at least to a true range of twenty five and cloak. Just make sure looses lock.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Thursday, March 05, 2015 - 05:15 pm: Edit

So the Gorn needs to keep a ship that close.

By Bob Brailsford (Bbrailsford) on Thursday, March 05, 2015 - 05:44 pm: Edit

If the objective is to raid anything other than this force then the Rolulan can slow down and cloak as soon as it is identified and cloak. The Gorn will never get that close.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandor) on Thursday, March 05, 2015 - 06:43 pm: Edit

Were would the Honor and glory be then from running from a force of equal strength. The Romulan wants to fight the disengagement rule is to keep the Gorn are defender from retrograding. The other option is a closed map.

By Bob Brailsford (Bbrailsford) on Thursday, March 05, 2015 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Romulans are not Klingons, While Klingons would fight this battle for honor and glory. Romulans fight battles of there choosing. Why allow the Gorns to change your objective? And who knows, you may come across a force not so equal along the way.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, March 06, 2015 - 02:30 pm: Edit

As the commander of the anti-Romulan force:

"They have cloaked? Good. Keep them on the distant scan and make them stay under cloak (Tactical Intelligence Level S4 or S5). They will use up their fuel running their cloaking devices to keep us from attacking them and have to return home. And we can follow them, and when they attempt to engage something else, we will arrive as the cavalry and have more combat power than they. It is good that they have cloaked while intruding into our space, in so doing they are granting us a cheap victory. I would be more concerned if they cloaked while we were intruding into their space, for they might simply be evading combat until their own additional forces arrive. But evading us while intruding into our space simply means we have won."

By Bob Brailsford (Bbrailsford) on Friday, March 06, 2015 - 03:17 pm: Edit

That's a good one. Did not se that coming.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, March 06, 2015 - 03:18 pm: Edit

Not always. In F&E the cloaked ships do have some ability to evade enemy forces in various ways.

By Bob Brailsford (Bbrailsford) on Friday, March 06, 2015 - 05:53 pm: Edit

Even though the Tactical Intelligence rules are optional and would have to be agreed upon by both sides before the game begins it is a part of the game that I had not though of. I'm not up on the these rules even though I had play for years. I need to find an opponent.