Nod, forgot about the design. Still, that's a unique ship, perhaps it was not feasible to practically build more.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, May 04, 2020 - 10:10 pm: Edit

Given the state of the Romulan Empire, the Economic Situation may not allow for the construction of a full HDSC hull.

It is possible that all that can be done is a refit of one or two existing ships.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Monday, May 04, 2020 - 11:53 pm: Edit

Richard,

We can leave that design as an unbuilt variant. The engineering is a bit doggy.

The Gorn HDCS would be a SCS with the wing plasma Fs replaced by special sensors.

Jeff,

The Romulan HDCS would be a Super HDSC built using a heavy Condor that is optimized.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, May 05, 2020 - 01:03 pm: Edit

Proposed Tholian Heavy RTN Hunter
(Note - I'm not sold on the designation "HDCS" for these ships. Some specific examples may be based on Division Control Ships but others will not; being based on SCS or SPS types instead. The Tholians don't even have a Division Control Ship.)

If I understand correctly, although the Tholians cannot build Neo-Tholian rear hulls in this galaxy, they can build the command modules. (They can perform modifications to the rear hulls, such as the NCA-NCX and NCL-NLX conversions.) So... build a special command module that swaps out one webcaster and one phaser-1 for two special sensors. Attach this special module to a Neo-Tholian Space Control Ship rear hull. Result - one very capable RTN hunter - maybe not Kzinti Super Space Control Ship level; but then, neither is anything else. The beauty of this design for the Tholians is that they can easily convert the ship between RTN hunter and conventional SCS roles by merely swapping command modules, which doesn't even require a shipyard.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, May 05, 2020 - 01:18 pm: Edit

All:

The heavy division control ship is a place holder. I am not sure there is a all empire designation. These ships share some common features.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, May 05, 2020 - 04:18 pm: Edit

Sounds good.

And HDSC could well end up being the all empire designation.

Unless some one were to submit a “Heavy Dreadnought SCout”.

Grin.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, May 05, 2020 - 10:43 pm: Edit

.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Tuesday, May 05, 2020 - 10:55 pm: Edit

Any ideas for the ISC?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Wednesday, May 06, 2020 - 11:21 pm: Edit

Not an ISC thing...

But thinking out side of the box for a minute...

We know that RTN hunters have to be solitary. Too many ships warp fields have a deleterious effect on the operation of special sensors.

What if you (generic ‘you’, not any one individual. Call it an empire operations manager trying to identify as many RTN nodes as quickly as possible for the least cost.)... were to mobilize an empires resources as part of the search?

Could that include deploying mobile bases? Let’s say that you placed three mobile bases. Three f&e hexes apart... not in any hexes with existing bases with special sensors.

That would concentrate Three more sets of special sensors in a cluster where (with careful placement) you now would have temporary placement of special sensors Either at range S0 or S1 (per SFB rules for detection purposes) of up to 21 f&e hexes. If you mounted a heavy fighter pod (for the Federation this could be a squadron of F-101 heavy fighters. Toss in a hanger pod of a single squadron of single space fighters (F-18C or F-18D Types). A third attrition squadron would be nice but perhaps not needed. Any nonFederation empire could use fighters, heavy fighters or PFs.

You just have to wait long enough for the sensors to clear naturally.

Instead of a HDSC or GSC variant, the fighters or PFs react to any RTN nodes detected...

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, May 06, 2020 - 11:41 pm: Edit

Jeff,

I'm dubious of that notion for a couple of reasons.

I think that the unless the galactic power were incredibly lucky in its initial placement of the mobile base (winning-the-powerball-lottery lucky), it would almost certainly be unable to find any RTN nodes. I believe the RTN hunters need be able to detect a "trail" and then follow it to the node.

Also, I don't think these isolated mobile bases (by definition there would be no nearby galactic power ships) would be survivable if the Andros tried to destroy them. An RTN hunter based on an X-tech PF tender (especially for those empires whose tenders retain significant firepower of their own) or an SCS with special sensors replacing some of its weapons, could either run or fight if an Andro warship attacked. That wouldn't guarantee survival. But such a hunter would have a heck of a lot better chance of surviving than a mobile base^* with no real warships to support it.


^*Of course, with no ships near by, the base isn't even "mobile". The Andros would kill it long before a tug could arrive to move it.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, May 07, 2020 - 12:19 am: Edit

Jeff,

See X1R page 30. The solution was to use hunters that could destroy the RTN node (s single Sat base) as first strike mission. These are the X-Hunter (carriers and PFTs) and if approved the SCS with special sensors. The single sat base makes up the majority of the RTN.

The Andromedans were destroying 1% of the galactic economy per month. The Andros high of power was Y197 and by Y198 they were on the loosing end of the war.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, May 07, 2020 - 01:05 am: Edit

Alan, it was more of a open conjecture.

Yes, luck would have a large piece in such situations.

Still. Without special sensors, most CA, NCL, DW and FF classes have no real war fighting missions other than base protection, convoy escort or garrison ship for a province or a major or minor world. (Or a Mobile Base on picket duty...)

If you move each set of mobile bases once every six months, you can effectively judge if there are RTN nodes near by, or not.

And if the Andromedan attack, you force them to attack a static defense position with zero economic impact to your own economy. Perfect place for a mine field...

It would be even better if we could base a bomber squadron As part of the defenses and let the Andries chew on that challenge. But, of course there is no way to use bombers offensively.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, May 07, 2020 - 01:07 am: Edit

Joe, just trying to suppliment the RTN hunter forces. It’s sounding like there is a practical limit on how many such RTN hunters were deployed.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, May 07, 2020 - 11:53 am: Edit

Warships that weren't RTN hunters were desperately needed to defend everywhere against Andromedans that could attack anywhere, anytime.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, May 07, 2020 - 01:28 pm: Edit

The RTN hunter was the solution the various empires used to free up these ships that were in a waiting mode until a RTN node was found. Usually the Andromedan forces just moved the node.

X1R states there were 100 to 300 nodes and around 50 hunting groups. Y195 and a few after the empires destroyed or disrupted about 6% of the RTN while Andromedan forces destroyed 1% of each empires economy each month.

"The solution was to use as hunting ships those units which could, themselves, destroy any node found...". This worked by Y198 the Andromedans were on the defensive.

The reason I am proposing these SC2 RTN hunters is based on the above.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Thursday, May 07, 2020 - 03:01 pm: Edit

Summary of ships to date

Heavy carriers or space control ships with special sensors. Late in the General War various empires removed 2 heavy weapons and added 2 special sensors to a space control ship or heavy carrier. These ships saw some combat post general was. They came into most important mission starting Y195. These ships could perform a first strike on a RTN node well. With the X-ship RTN hunters turned the tide of the war.

(R2.XX) The Federation recognized the limitations of the division control ship class. A dreadnought heavy carrier (DVA) was converted to what amounted to a heavy division control ship by replacing 2 photons with 2 special sensors. The conversion was completed in Y185. The ship was named a dreadnought heavy control ship (DVCS).

(R3.XX) The Klingons concerned that the Federation and Kzinti's were building what appeared to be a heavy division control ship converted a C8S. They replaced the two disruptors on the center warp engine with Special Sensors. The ship's own integral firepower is now heavy cruise-level. But it still has dreadnought-level shields and durability. (by Alan Trevor)

(R4.XX) The Romulans by Y184 were essentially bankrupt. They may have converted a Phoenix SCS by replacing the plasma Fs with special sensors.

(R5.XX) The Kzinti CVA was converted to a space control ship in Y181. Most surviving DNs and CVAs were converted by Y186. In Y 185 two special sensors were add to the forward part of an SCS. This ship was the forerunner to the SSCS.

(R6.XX) The Gorns added a heavy dreadnought bubble to an SCS and replaced the wing plasma Fs with special sensors in Y 186.

(R7.XX) Neo Tholian ship: The Tholians created or rebuilt a command module with 2 special sensors. This command module was attached to the neo Tholian rear hull. (Alan Trevor)

(R11.XX) The lyrans replaced the center disrupters on a SPS with special sensors.

The Hydrans and ISC built X-ship RTN hunters.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, May 07, 2020 - 09:59 pm: Edit

Let us take a look at some numbers.

X1R states that Andromedan forces destroyed 1% of each empires economy each month.

Take the Federation, for example. The Year 168 fall economy in F&E was 221 EConomic Points per six month turn. Annual income would be (221*2)=442 EP.

Monthly income would be (442/12)=36.83333333

1% would amount to (36.83*0.01=0.3683) EP per month lost to Andromedan attacks.

In terms of F&E and six months turns, (0.3683*6)=2.209999 EP.

So, to put this into context, the Federation was losing the equivalent of a province level income every six months to Andromedan attacks, spread out over the entire Federation. So, the Federation didn’t lose any provinces, but the income of a lot of provinces was lower due to the attacks.

If we assume the 1% number quoted in 1XR is correct, and that the Andromedan attacks occurred starting in January year 195 Through the end of December Year 198.

That means the Federation took a permanent hit to its economy of (8*(02.20999))=17.67992 EP.

It’s not end of the Universe Thing, but it’s significant.

The other part is the “Around 50 hunting groups.”

The Federation had the largest economy, with the Romulan bankruptcy towards the bottom of the list.

The question is how to figure out how many hunte4 groups each empire provided.

My first instinct is to use each empires per turn income in fall year 168, added together and determine a prorated percentage. Then multiply each empires prorated Portion to the 50 hunting groups.

That would give us exactly 50 hunter groups. The Feds would have the most, all other empires comparably fewer.

The only real discussion point is how to adjust for the Romulan bankruptcy.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Thursday, May 07, 2020 - 11:39 pm: Edit

Jeff:

Wouldn't *all* of the Empires' economies be much less by that point? My understanding (and I could be completely incorrect) is that the ISC pacification campaign had managed to pretty much strip the neutral zone bordering provinces from them.

Just looking at my large scale F&E map on the wall, that's 15 provinces and 5 minor worlds for a total of 45EP per F&E turn, or 90 EP per year lost for the Federation.

Yes, that is a smaller loss when multiplied out, but also a smaller base to lose from.

For the record too, this means that the Roms would have lost 12 provinces and 1 minor, the Gorn 9 provinces and 2 minors, Klingons 16 provinces, 2 majors and 3 minors, the Kzinti 6 provinces, and 3 minors, the Lyrans 7 provinces, 1 major and 1 minor, the LDR everything, and the Hydrans 5 provinces.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, May 07, 2020 - 11:50 pm: Edit

My vague recollection of the ISC War scenario in F&E is that not all the income in those areas is lost to the nominally owning empires.

The information can be found in the scenario which is located in the ISC War expansion for F&E.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, May 08, 2020 - 12:27 am: Edit

There are also the issues of off-map provinces developed by exploration, and "XTPs", which, late in the GW, increase the effective size of various empires' economies. I don't think there's enough information available to do what Jeff wants to do. But clearly, it can't be based on Y168 economies.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Friday, May 08, 2020 - 01:14 am: Edit

Also, the complete size of each empire's economy is beyond the scope of F&E. All you see in F&E is the portion available to pay for the capital costs of the military. Even then, it subsumes a LOT, like paying for the operational costs of the military.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, May 08, 2020 - 07:49 am: Edit

I was using year 168 year income because that was a number that I could recall without looking it up.

In response to Allan, I would argue that the point was to get a prorated number to arrive at the relative sizes of the various empires economies. With the exception of the Romulans, the relative sizes of each Empires economy should stay relatively stable With regard to each.

The LDR was destroyed as a result of the Andromedan war, so the question as to whether they are to be included in fielding a RTN hunter group will need to be resolved.

Mike Dowd: the relationship of relative size of each empires economy would still be proportional (assuming that the ISC campaign had the same impact on all the various empires.)

Well, with the exception of the WYN. They did not have any border provinces to lose.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, May 08, 2020 - 12:43 pm: Edit

Jeff,

But would the relative sizes of each empire's economy really have remained stable? I'm dubious.

You mentioned the LDR being destroyed. At the time period in question, who gets the economic output of that region of space? The Lyrans? The Andromedans? No one, because the infrastructure was destroyed by the Andromedans and hadn't been rebuilt yet? We don't know.

Some of the galactic powers expanded their economies by off-map exploration and development of colonies. Was this expansion directly proportional to the size of their pre-war economies, across the board? It seems unlikely. The Klingons don't even have off-map territory of their own. They leased territory from the Lyran Far Stars Clan. Did the ISC allow the Klingons access to that territory during the Pacification? Even if they did, would the Klingons have been able to access those regions during the Andromedan Invasion? We don't know. I believe the Fed off-map colonies, by comparison, are more likely to have contributed to the Fed economy during the period in question.

The Tholians have no off-map region to explore. But due to the way the XTP bonus ix calculated, they should get a proportionally larger boost to their economy from X-tech. I suspect that during the Andro Invasion the Tholian economy, while still smaller than that of major powers, is relatively closer in size. Again, I'm guessing. But I suspect that the combination of proportionally larger XTP bonus and the fact that their infrastructure is harder to destroy (and that they seem to have lost little or nothing during the ISC Pacification), would outweigh the lack of off-map development. Off course, there are also the Selorians. And while they may have destroyed Tholian ships and some small mining colonies, I don't think they did any major damage to the Tholian core before being crushed by the ISC and then finished off by the Klingons. So I repeat that I think it probable that the Tholian economy is proportionally somewhat closer to the major powers during the Andromedan Invasion than it was pre-war.

In any case, I think just extrapolating from the relative sizes of the pre-war economies is the wrong approach. And knowing exactly how many RT hunter groups each empire deployed isn't necessary for this topic in any case.

By Joe Carlson (Jrc) on Friday, May 08, 2020 - 12:58 pm: Edit

While this is interesting it fits better into F&E Andromedan War. Also there is no tactical SFB module, at this time,to handle these dynamics.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, May 08, 2020 - 04:50 pm: Edit

Joe, This method could be used to apportion how many RTN hunters each empire would operate.

Alan, I am glad you are dubious. Without knowing each empires actual income in year 195, we can’t be certain That we’ve got the right numbers.

What we do have is the starting income for Fall year 168.

You have made strong case for why the Tholian Holdfast is larger relative to other empires. We can put a number to that, be it a 10% increase, A 15% increase, perhaps even 25%. Whatever. While you might well be correct that the Tholian economy is a harder target for the Andromedan to destroy, a portion is still at risk. Iirc only 20 EP perF&E turn is created inside the Dyson Sphere. That amounts to 40 EP per year, none of which can be destroyed. I’d have to do some research, but I would guess the Tholian income loss due to Andromedan attacks is far less than what the Federation loses.

All I am suggesting with all of this, is a way to establish how many RTN hunter groups are operated by each of the alpha octant empires.

Some, going in, will likely only have a single RTN hunter group. (Romulan, Hydran, WYN?)

Others two or perhaps three? That’s part of what we need to discuss.

Otherwise, it’s all conjecture.

I just offer a method to base a calculation, subject to modifications such as Alan Trevor posted above.