Balancing of the Andro is always going to be tricky, the problem I see with the new designs is in weakening the fire power, the only route to victory for the Andro is a long game of multiple passes and multiple Displacements.

How about something radical, remove the DisDiv, give the ship back its heavy weapons, and throw in a few more T-Bombs for interesting tactical options.

By Gregg Dieckhaus (Gdieck) on Sunday, July 12, 2020 - 10:17 pm: Edit

2xTRL seems like there is no way it is a threat to even punch a shield....

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 08:39 am: Edit

2TRL+4P2 can't get through a front shield at R3. It's gonna do, on average, what, 19+14=33 damage (those are completely average damage numbers that are more likely to be either a little higher or a little lower in reality, depending on how the dice fall). Which is an almost down shield and empty batteries. If it can manage a centerline shot (using all 6P2s, assuming they didn't need to shoot down drones or something), and there isn't any allocated reinforcement, it might be able to do a small handful of internals.

If it can get to a rear shield, or get to R1, it is more likely to do *some* internals, but this is both difficult, and more likely to get it just killed outright.

The 2011 version with 2TRH (2TRH/6P2/3BTTY) seemed like it was almost a viable ship when we were playing it in/around 2011. The 3 batteries *really* limited the ability to dump panel energy, and it often ended up just running out of power late in a game that is pretty even, and getting caught in a corner while moving speed 12 (as it doesn't have enough power to move fast and keep it's panels up anymore).

I suspect if the 2011 version traded the 2TRH for 3TRL, it would be certainly weaker than it is with 2TRH, but probably still moderately viable.

Like, what I'd like to see from the Andro is a ship that is *playable*, but on the weaker end of the average spectrum--the ship is weird and often befuddling to people who aren't real familiar playing against it, so having it err on the side of "a little under average" seems completely reasonable. Like, if it were about the same level of ability to win as, say, the Selt or the LDR? That's be fine.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 09:07 am: Edit

Why should any ship be intentionally weaker than the rest. "Befuddling" should mean that the opponents have to learn, not that the player needs to be hamstrung. When you lose to it you go online, ask, and find ways to not make the same mistakes.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 09:54 am: Edit

So, like, this ship has a very long and complicated history of being wildly overpowered. There are 2 or 3 "Victory At" articles published from the (old) World Championships in which every game is essentially "I did some internals to my opponent. They did none in return. I ran off, emptied my panels, came back, did more internals to my opponent. My opponent did none in return. The game was over."

It won the world championship. Got downgraded. Won the world championship. Got downgraded again. Won the world championship. The Powers That Be were then convinced that there was a problem.

This was against people who were very good at the game and were not at all befuddled by what was going on.

The rules for this ship make it incredibly difficult to balance in a single ship duel tournament setting. Which is why there has not been a official, actually playable, sanctioned version of this ship for over a decade now. So settling on a version that is playable, but on the weaker side of balanced is a logical solution. As a version that is on the stronger side of balanced is what there was, and it made the tournament not work.

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 10:16 am: Edit

"They did none in return. I ran off, emptied my panels, came back, did more internals to my opponent."

The DisDev very much permitted this tactic, has an Andro without one ever been tested?

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 11:04 am: Edit

I once knew a Jason Gray

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 11:05 am: Edit

Would an Andro without a disheveled be an Andro?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 11:09 am: Edit

No.

Maybe a TRH and a TRL?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 11:31 am: Edit

IMHO the Andro does not belong in the sanctioned tournament. The technology mismatch makes it very difficult to balance the RPS against the playing field of all tourney cruisers. To give the Andro a fighting chance against TCs like the Fed or Orion, it would have sufficient capability to make it a 7/3 (or worse) against big plasma and like a 6/4 against D&D ships.

If it were up to me (which I know it is not) I would simply remove the Andro from the tourney field.

However, the TC selection does need some fresh blood. I've always been a strong advocate for a Federation TCF. It would need only a modicum of changes: 5*btty (instead of 4) plus tourney shields of 30f/24r, and I think it would make an excellent competitor.

It would also be nice to introduce some variations for other empires that only have one ship (Klingon, Gorn, Hydran, Kzinti, ISC). A wider selection of RPS issues would be very nice to see, and really spice up the tourney field.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 11:33 am: Edit

Just to add: I would be *more* than happy to thoroughly playtest a Fed TCF in many tourney games, and I would take the time to write the reports. You want 50 games and reports (roughly 3 games per other TC type), I'll get to work.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 11:35 am: Edit

I was thinking maybe 1 TRH (FA) *not* (FP), 2 TRL (LS/RS). That might solve the weakness against the disrupter ships.

Not sure what it does to stop the Andro from stomping on plasma.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 11:39 am: Edit

I did not see Ted's comments before commenting- if I had, I would have said I mostly agree with him on everything.

I think the Andro probably can't be balanced with one ship. I think a ship for disr/drones and a different ship for plasma is probably what would be needed. I wouldn't cry a tear if the Andro disappeared from tourney play.

I also agree that it we could use more tournament ship variety and would help with playtesting.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 11:44 am: Edit

Again, I think the 2011 playtest version:

-2TRH
-28 power
-3 batteries
-6P2
-DisDev
-Limited internals (6 hull, 2 cargo)

Is *already* pretty close to balanced. We played it a lot at the time (2011-2012) specifically to playtest it. I probably played a dozen games with it against numerous opponents of all different levels of skill at the time. It was not at all an unreasonable ship, DisDev and all.

It wasn't impossible for the ship to just accidentally win due to some early blunder by an opponent (IIRC, at least one game, I effectively killed a Klingon by, like, the end of T1, 'cause I accidentally got behind it, fired, did real hot, did, like, 20 brutal internals 'cause I got around the drones, and then disdeved away). It wasn't impossible for the ship to just get killed on the first attack run by failing a DisDev on a 6, but *most* of the games had a similar dynamic to a regular game--the ships would exchange volleys, both ships would take some damage, both ships would slow down, eventually if the Andro lost, it'd be 'cause it ran out of power and couldn't get away anymore.

The 3 batteries (and as such, 15 capacity) is a *serious* limit to the ship. When you dump the panels, you are either dropping from reinforced to standard, or dropping a whole bank.

The front panels hold 60 at reinforced, 36 standard. So if your front panels are reinforced and full, you can't drop them to standard (and turn off the rears) and absorb the power (as the 24 released power is more than your 15 battery capacity). If you have full front panels and empty rear panels, you can drop from reinforced to standard, slosh the 24 power to the rear panels, and now you have 36 power in your front and 24 on your rear (as you are at standard). If you then drop the front panels, 36 power blows up your ship (so you can't drop the front panels).

With only 3 batteries, the ability to clear the panels is almost completely limited to "absorb 10% and radiate 1 per box at the end of the turn", except in pretty difficult to arrange situations. Which greatly limits the ability of the ship to do things. Assuming it just made a alpha strike and is on a reload turn, it is spending:

-8 power to keep on the PA panels
-2 for FC/LS
-6 power for TR beams
-4 to 6 power for Phasers
-2 power for the DisDev

That's 22 of 28 power spent before moving. So it is gonna be running out of battery power *very* quickly. And having a lot of trouble getting energy back into those batteries at a speed at which it can keep figting.

Yes. The Andro, with 3 batteries, *can* periodically manage to get a not insignificant amount of power from panels to batteries with a quick dump (panels at reinforced but fronts are full to, like, 50, turn off rear, drop to standard, slosh 12 power into empty batteries and suddenly be back in business), but it is difficult to arrange, and often requires a very cooperative opponent. But generally speaking, power management for an Andro with 3 batteries is *very* difficult. And I lost multiple games in this ship 'cause I couldn't move faster than, like, speed 12 late in the game, an so couldn't avoid the enveloper that demolished me.

Like, it is possible that 2TRH is still possibly a little too strong. So trying it out with 3TRL is probably the good move; it still can DisDev, it still can do PA panel shenanagins (although in a limited sense), does less damage overall but is a little more resilient in a long game (as it has 3 torp hits instead of just 2). It might be a little on the weaker side, but at least I think it would probably be playable.

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 12:05 pm: Edit

"Would an Andro without a disheveled be an Andro?"

Would the 'Gods' who put the Tournament Captains into the Arena-of-Battle not wish to remove such cowardly tactics as Displacement!?! ))

BTW, after buying the latest 2012 Tournament Book PDF, I could find no mention in the intro to the 'Gods' putting the ships in the arena......but I could swear there was some such blurb in an earlier edition, anyone recall something like this, or am I just getting old and senile ))

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Alternatively, keep it at 3 batteries and 2TRLs, but give it a hanger bay and a MWP.

Give it the option of having a PA mine instead of a T-bomb after knowing the ship of the opponent, if it does not have that already.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 02:59 pm: Edit

The PA mine was stripped out early after its introduction, and I don't think the a PA mine is necessarily going to help anything, given that if the ship is *ever* good against anything, it is plasma.

I suspect that wacky solutions (take out the DisDev and then try and rebalance it from there or give it something in a hangar bay) are certainly not impossible, but also probably basically starting over from scratch, which I suspect is not conducive to ever coming up with an actual, working solution.

Like, where we are currently (assuming the 2011 playtest version is "currently") is probably pretty close to an actual, useable ship. In the current online tournament, I'm using it, but with 2TRL as some sort of experiment. I don't know that the ship with 2TRL is even remotely viable, but I'm certainly going to give it a try. But once it is determined "yeah, that didn't work", I suspect that the actual viable path to a working ship is to try it with 3TRL or try it with 2TRH and something of a minor tweak down (pull out a power or something), rather than starting over with something drastic.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 03:29 pm: Edit

What about putting an energy module in the hangar bay. That would allow at least one panel dump. Which would give it the ability to fight long enough to eventually hit the same shield a second time.

I know that some people would be happy to see the Andro go away, but as someone who likes to fly the Fed occasionally, I'd really like to see it in the tournament. The Fed could seriously use another good matchup. It's only got a few good ones currently, and a lot of bad ones. This is something that I've never really seen anyone talking about. Having the Andro nerfed out of existence, has been a downgrade to the Fed, which doesn't need a downgrade.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 04:17 pm: Edit

I've seen many discussions about adding a G rack to the Fed to balance it somewhat. Unfortunately, that has been shot down by the powers that be.

That's the reason why I've been advocating for the Fed TCF (5 batt, 30/24 shields). It brings something very new and interesting to the TC field, and allows fans of the Fed to fly something that is likely to have a better RPS against plasma and D&D, particularly the Kzinti.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 04:22 pm: Edit

If that's a fast ship, I'd say no. Fast ships are not representative of SFB cruisers but are a rare variant.

***

An Andro with SOMETHING in the hanger bay will help with panel tricks without giving it batteries and is something Andros were known for. An Andro HWP if I recall is speed 24ish and has two phaser-2s for armament. Doesn't seem too awful.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 04:26 pm: Edit

A 2 TRL Andromedan isn't viable at all. Imagine what a Kzinti is going to do to it. Or the Shark. Or any Lyran. Or the Hydran. Or any Tholian. The Fed. Even the Klingon....It's an ugly disaster.

Peter is a great player but I don't think he can beat any sorta decent player in any of those NINE ships with 2 TRL's. Like 0-25 before he wins one. The only viable tactic is to hope the opponent will always miss when they roll dice.

If we need a tourney Ando, my vote would be at least give him 3 TRL's in the tourney. We aren't going to learn anything by him getting obliterated and doing no internals. It seems very unlikely that the ship is over powered giving it 10 points more damage potential every other turn.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 05:24 pm: Edit

It's not gonna change right now; I'm flying the thing I'm flying, and we'll see how it works (which will be badly :-)

Like, still, I'm advocating for the 2011 full on version (with TRH) to get aggressively used and tested--it seemed *almost* good. It could be killed by Big Plasma without a jackpot alpha bolt on the rear panels (just survive long enough for it to slow down to speed 12). It could be killed by disruptor drone ships (as the "take a shot, chase it into the corner, blast the rear panels, keep the pressure on, eventually get through and do internals") actually worked when it couldn't massive panel dump.

Like, I can certainly see how TPTB are wary of the ship with 2TRH. So I'd suggest trying it out with 3TRL for a while and see how it goes.

I think the tournament as a whole benefits from the Andro being there, as long as it isn't an overpowered Andro. Having a ship that folks can fly 'cause it is interesting, having a ship that is a little harder for big plasma to fight, having a ship that is something that the Fed and Lyran are good against are all things that help the environment. I mean, I also don't want a killer nightmare ship again. But having an Andro that is, like, 4-6 against the field average would be good overall, I'd think.

And heck, if nothing else, we got this discussion happening again after 3 years :-)

By Randy Green (Hollywood750) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 07:41 pm: Edit

Peter, so, 3 batteries make it too weak.. how about 4? I haven't seen that suggested anywhere? Specifically for the 2 TRH version.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, July 13, 2020 - 07:49 pm: Edit

I don't think 3 makes it weak. I think 3 makes it *possible*. The whole point is to limit the ability to dump the panels.

The current "official" version (the ship on the tournament download site) has 4 batteries. People have played it. It is probably ok.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Tuesday, July 14, 2020 - 11:18 am: Edit

How about creating a Tournament Energy Module?

It would allow a one time energy dump. After that, the Andro is on its own.