(G7.91) A unit being tractored (held in a tractor beam) cannot fire its direct-fire weapons or plasma torpedoes, or use its tractor beams, against any ship except the holding unit.
Exception: This firing (and tractoring) restriction (G7.91) is ignored if the tractoring unit is equal in size class to or smaller than the tractored unit and if the two units are not on the same side.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Sunday, July 26, 2020 - 07:28 pm: Edit

(G7.716) In the event that a ship has tractor links with two or more ships, it cannot be rotated.

(G7.715) If both ships wish to rotate closer, they move one hex (not two) closer.
If both ships wish to rotate further away, they move one hex (not two) further apart.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, July 27, 2020 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Charles H. Carroll:

If I understand your question correctly, see (G7.373). Only two ships provide any movement energy, that generated by the third (or fourth, or fifth, or 26th) is ignored as if it were never generated except for purposes of turn modes (which is done based on the pseudo speed generated by the two ships providing the movement).

Rule (G7.716) Prevents the first rotation. or any rotation.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Monday, July 27, 2020 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick,

First off we have to determine the rule dealing with if 3 ships which are moving are all scheduled to move on Impulse 32...and are all tractored to each other or if just one has to tractor the other two. I understand the part about only two supply movement power. But....the rule about carry over of movement when you go from Imp 32 of one turn to imp 1 of the next is that the ship that was scheduled to move on 32 delays its movement until imp 1. So...if all 3 ships are tractored in some fashion. Then all 3 ships would move on imp 1 of the next turn so long as tractors are maintained.

That's the first part I would like clarified. Is there a way to get the movement bonus involving 3 or more ships which are on the same side and should receive the delayed movement. Or does in some rule I have not seen a rule that says if more than two ships are tractored now you do not get the movement that would happen if two ships are tractored.

Then as you pointed to rule G7.716 it says that (G7.716) In the event that a ship has tractor links with two or more
ships, it cannot be rotated.

Ok but....that says the ship that has the tractor links established cannot be rotated. Not that the ships or drones or what ever that it has tractored cannot be rotated. As such Since the ships are the same size I should be able to at least push both ships if I can tractor two...1 hex outwards for no additional cost. The tractored ships have a single tractor attached to them so the two or more does not apply.

Thereby effectively gaining 1 hex for the delayed movement. Followed by for two ships....1 additional hex for them being pushed out by the tractoring ship.

At least that is how I read that the ship with the links cannot be rotated. So while I might not get the final movement for one ship. I should still gain not one but 2 movements for 2 of the 3 ships. After which tractors are dropped and all ships revert to full fire control.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, July 27, 2020 - 07:06 pm: Edit

Charles H. Carrol:

You have three ships that are tractoring each other.

First, under (G7.91) only one (1) of the three ships can tractor the other two. See the Exemption to the rule and note that "and" is italicized to call attention to the it being important.

So if SkyHawk #1 tractored SkyHawk #2. then SkyHawk #2 cannot tractor SkyHawk #3. If SkyHawk #3 Tractored SkyHawk #2 Then it would get into a tractor auction with SkyHawk #1 (G7.371). If SkyHawk #3 tractored SkyHawk #1 then the confused fire control would cause SkyHawk #1 to lose its tractor link to SkyHawk #2. So the only way you are getting three ships to tractor each other is for SkyHawk #1 to tractor both SkyHawk #2 and SkyHawk #3.

Note: The Restriction on Tractored Friendly units having their tractors blocked only applies to SHIPS, you can be tractored by a friendly unit and still use your tractors to grab drones and shuttles.

If three or more ships are linked by a tractor, you choose which two will use their pseudo speed, the ship you did not choose basically turns on place as the pseudo speed satisfies its turn mode, but it otherwise has lost all movement, it does not move on Impulse #1 of the following turn unless the tractor link it maintained and which ever of the two ships generating movement that had its movement delayed will move the combination the next turn, but only if the tractor link is maintained.

So if you have three tractored ships and Ships #2 and #3 are chosen to move the combination, and Ship #2 moves the combination on Impulse #32 and Ship #3 is delayed until Impulse #1 of the next Turn, if the tractor link is maintained (G7.36C), but if the tractor link is not maintained, then both Ship #3 and Ship #1 will lose their movement on Impulse #1 and by the way Ship #2 does not move either.

If you wanted to rotate the ships further away, and not lose your impulse #1 movement, you MUST maintain the tractor link (at least to the other ship that is already scheduled to move on Impulse #1), if you have pushed the ship further away and not provided the extra energy to maintain the tractor link, well the tractor link is broken, and so you do not get the movement.

Tractor Rotation is BEFORE movement.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Monday, July 27, 2020 - 07:51 pm: Edit

True...but....since power required for tractor at range 0 is one. And power required for range 1 is 1 then you can push a ship 1 hex away as in forward for the same power it took to hold it. And as I see it...as the tractoring unit of the other two ships. I can push both of them forward one hex...and then assuming I or one of them is scheduled to move because of the delayed movement...at that time...we all then move forward one more hex.

Now at this point...having 2 ships that have moved 2 hexes this imp and 1 ship that only moved one, the tractoring ship now drops tractor and at this time all 3 ships as launch and fire are still ahead, have FC up and can launch and/or fire weapons normally.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Monday, July 27, 2020 - 11:59 pm: Edit

Three ships on same side in the same hex, one has tractored the other two, on Impulse 32 all ships move and will have delayed movement on impulse 1.
If the power is maintained in tractor the two ships can be rotated out to range one, and on impulse 1 the three ships move the one delayed move.

Yes this has been done in games.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 03:20 pm: Edit

Tractor tricks something I have learned about playing the excellent players on the SFBOL. There are a lot of things I have learned watching and playing against these players. There are answers to there tricks and ways to overcome them and I am sure ways to use there tricks against them. Then they are not available for other things. Also were they using planned power are btty to do the tractor tricks. If he/she is putting two points into tractor. That is two points not some were else like ECM.

If You know he is going to use the tractor tricks fire fakes at him. He does his thing then you bolt your torps as You do not have a shift as he used power for the tractor's instead.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 03:48 pm: Edit

Faster he moves, the slower I have to move to get him in my sights......
Small ships close together make for a brighter explosion....

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 04:41 pm: Edit

In Charles H. Carroll's example he is having one ship expend power equal to eight hexes of movement over two turns. The cost of a tractor is immutable.

A movement cost 1 ship would spend the equivalent of four hexes of movement over two turns.

A movement cost 1.25 ship spends the equivalent of three hexes of movement over two turns.

A movement cost 1.50 spends less than three hexes of movement over two turns.

A movement cost 2.00 ship spends the equivalent of two hexes of movement.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 05:35 pm: Edit

"Tractor Tricks" have been part of the game for a LONG time, it's just that a lot of players don't know about them. Some basic facts about squadron to fleet battles every SFB player needs to know:

1) Your opponent can almost certainly turn earlier than you think by a well timed tractor to "reduce" speed.

2) Your opponent is likely going to be able to move, or not move, on impulses you would otherwise not expect based on movement rate without tractors.

3) Your opponent can easily manage the *effect* of speed 32 by arranging to move on impulse #1 by virtue of tractoring on impluse 31 and getting a delayed movement resulting from impulse 32.

4) Using tractor rotation, if the ship sizes are right, your opponent can effectively move one ship of a tractor link TWO hexes before fire on Impulse #1 (one from tractor rotation in the initial activity phase and one from delayed movement from Impulse #32).

As long as you know all these things, you can plan accordingly.

And, of course, use them yourself!

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 07:18 pm: Edit

Just keep in mind the scrambling of fire control that can happen using these tricks.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, July 28, 2020 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Fire control issues aside(I.e. has to be in balance with the scenario. If all one has to do is survive (like for the U.S.S. hood)) scrambled FC is a small price to pay if a tractor trick get the job done.

Just “Doing” a tractor trick with out any justification is a waste of time, in my opinion.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Quick question on Death Dragging in a Tractor tunnel.

Ship 1 speed 12 after tractor adjustment. Ship 2 speed 9. Combines speed 21.

So if...a SS is launched in the tunnel. Next impulse either ship moves and is the only ship to move.

Does the shuttle blow up because of the combined speed of 21. Or does the shuttle live because no single ship moves fast enough. Or does it never blow up because even if both moved...only one hex could be moved in an impulse which leads to a movement delay?

Shuttle is scheduled to move this impulse also.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 02:45 pm: Edit

It appears G7.54 answers Chuck's question. Use the "effective speed" to determine whether the shuttle is death dragged, which in this case is speed 21. The rule appears to state that it doesn't matter if the two ships cancel each other's movements or only 1 hex is moved by one of them - what matters is whether the effective speed equals or exceeds the death dragging speed.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 03:03 pm: Edit

Pretty sure that movement has to ACTUALLY HAPPEN for a shuttle to be death dragged. Could be wrong though.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 03:18 pm: Edit

@Richard: Yes, I agree. However, I believe that movement was posited in the question that inspired Chuck's question.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Anyway it seems I am wrong. If the two ships both move but return to the same hex, you use the effective speed (in this case 21) and death drag the shuttle, destroying it. Explicitly stated in the rules to be so.

That being said, if the two ships are going in opposite directions(ie A and D), then it says the net vector effective speed is zero and obviously there would be no death dragging. (I question this, thinking that perhaps such speed is the difference between the two pseudo speeds, but the rule says zero). This does not seem to apply if the two ships are not heading in opposite directions but end up in the same hex (involving sideslips or turns or something?).

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 03:55 pm: Edit

Which also would imply that one ship being the only one moving would just be the one ships move speed.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 03:58 pm: Edit

Well, I think that what matters here is the *effective speed*, not how the ships actually move using their pseudo speeds.

Of course, I have an out-of-date rules version, or it's possible I've misread something, so maybe I'm wrong.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 04:11 pm: Edit

It's not the one ship's speed. It's the effective speed calculated from the combination of tractored ships that determines if a shuttle is dragged, the rule is clear on that.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 04:31 pm: Edit

Agreed. In my version of G7.54, the effective speed is the sum of the pseudo speeds.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 07:47 pm: Edit

Guys:

This question came up a while ago, and SVC rules that if the Net Effective Vector Speed is less than is required to death drag the shuttle (or shuttles), they the shuttles are not death dragged.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 08:20 pm: Edit

So if only one ship moves....there is no real vector speed. Only the ship speed. And therefore a speed twelve ship moving does not exceed the speed 6 shuttle by 2X and the shuttle survives...and then moves and hits the target. Assuming I understand this correctly?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 08:41 pm: Edit

No, you do not understand it correctly.

Any time either ship moves (or both moves or no ship moves) the effective net vector speed is the same. It is calculated taking both ships into account as long as the tractor line exists (I'm assuming only two ships are tractored here for simplicity).

If one ship has an effective speed of 7 and the other 15, you use both numbers to calculate the effective net vector speed (as the rules specify, there might be fiddly bits somewhere), it does not matter whether either ship is scheduled to move on a particular impulse or not when you make this calculation.

So, if the ship scheduled to move has an effective speed of 12 and the other ship has an effective speed of 1 and is not scheduled to move, then the shuttle is death dragged if the two ships are not moving in opposite directions (for example, directions A and C. If they ARE moving in opposite directions (for example, directions B and E), then the shuttle would not be death dragged.