Thank you SP. Clearly my mind slipped.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Saturday, April 18, 2020 - 03:46 pm: Edit

Could one - if they wanted to - start a tournament game with held suicide shuttles that do less then full damage (18)?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, April 18, 2020 - 03:59 pm: Edit

Jack Taylor:

Yes. Would be truly curious to know why you would do so as it does not reduce the holding cost and while the bigger bang might be overkill in some instances it is not like that would harm you in any way (save collateral damage from a wild weasel).

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Saturday, April 18, 2020 - 07:03 pm: Edit

So long as no one reads this- I think I could trick someone into thinking I have more then 2 suicide shuttles if I had one get destroyed in some way and have it do less then 18 after turn 2. I am sneaky.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Thursday, April 30, 2020 - 07:54 pm: Edit

Do snares on Tholian ships start held in tournament games?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, May 01, 2020 - 03:47 pm: Edit

Tholian snares are armed and have their full one point of energy loaded in them, just as the web caster has its full five points of energy allocated.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Friday, May 01, 2020 - 06:59 pm: Edit

thanks!

By Daniel Bitseff (Cadet_Stimpy) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 01:13 pm: Edit

A situation came up this morning in a Sapphire Star battle, and hoping to get clarification.

Hydran moving dir C, speed 20
Shark moving dir A, speed 26

Hydran tractors Shark at range 0, pseudo speeds are 9 & 12 (from memory). Shark is scheduled to move next impulse & launches 2 x seeking shuttles. Would these get death dragged due to effective speed, or are they safe due to movement vectors?

Thanks!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 01:25 pm: Edit

I believe rule G7.54 resolves your situation.

Use the effective speed of the ships, which is the sum of the pseudospeeds. In this case, that's 21.

Speed 21 is more than double the speed of an admin shuttle.

G7.54 *explicitly* states that death dragging will occur before the shuttle can move (and the SS can hit). It also *explicitly* says that "canceling" movement (i.e., "movement vectors") does not change the result.

While not official, I'm about 99% certain the suicide shuttles are death dragged and destroyed when the shark moves, BEFORE the SS can hit the TLM.

By Daniel Bitseff (Cadet_Stimpy) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 02:22 pm: Edit

Thanks Ted!

In my rulebook (2012), under G7.54 I don't see the wording where movement vectors does not change the result...

Is it under errata, or am I not reading it right?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Dan, I have the 2004 version of the Captain's Master Rulebook. Here is the entirety of the rule as I have it.


(G7.54) SHUTTLE DESTRUCTION: If a shuttle is held in a tractor
beam by a ship moving faster [Effective Speed (C2.45)] than twice
the maximum rated speed of the shuttle (ignoring booster packs), the
shuttle is destroyed. This is known as "death dragging" by shuttle
pilots.
See (G7.9433) for seeking shuttles.
See (J1.212) for speed definitions.
Note that as ships move before shuttles and seeking weapons in
the Order of Precedence (C1.313), a suicide shuttle carried along in a
tractor tunnel (G7.9433) might be death-dragged before it reached its
target. It is also possible that a seeking shuttle launched into a tractor
tunnel (G7.9432) might hit its target before it can be death-dragged.
Regardless of the speed of a given drone, it cannot be death-dragged
as a shuttle can.
Note that shuttles are death-dragged as a result of the "effective
speed". This means that even if two ships tractored together are
moving in opposite directions or directly towards each other thereby
seeming to cancel out some movement. a shuttle will still be deathdragged
as a result of movement called for on a given impulse. The
fact that the movements are cancelled out does not change the fact
that effective speed is equal to the sum of the pseudo speeds as
stated in (C2.45).
(G7.541) The shuttle is not destroyed simply by being held. When the
ship moves (and by doing so attempts to drag the shuttle along), the
shuttle is destroyed in the hex where it was before the movement.
The shuttle is destroyed even if the ship "moves" but does not leave
its hex due to (G7.36-CI). Note that this means that a ship moving
speed 32 could tractor a shuttle on lmpulse #32 of a turn, and adopt a
speed slow enough not to death-drag it at the start of the following
turn. This would also apply if a ship used a mid-turn speed change to
reduce its speed on the impulse following the one it tractored a
shuttle during a turn. The shuttle would only be death-dragged if the
ship actually conducted a hex of movement at a speed high enough
to destroy the shuttle.
(G7.542) A crippled shuttle is destroyed if towed at faster than twice
its reduced speed (i.e., faster than its undamaged maximum speed).
(G7.543) An uncrippled fighter must have an opportunity to make an
HET breakaway maneuver (G7.55) before it can be destroyed. If the
ship is scheduled to move, the fighter can make the breakaway out of
the normal Order of Precedence (C1.313).

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 02:43 pm: Edit

[EDIT] The term "movement vector" was your term. The portion of the text I was referring to (and the way I (perhaps incorrectly) interpreted as your "movement vector" was the rule that deals with the "canceling out" of movement.

"This means that even if two ships tractored together are
moving in opposite directions or directly towards each other thereby
seeming to cancel out some movement. a shuttle will still be deathdragged
as a result of movement called for on a given impulse. "


In other words, it doesn't really matter where or how the tractored ships move together (or don't have a net movement). So long as a movement was called at one of the pseudo speeds, the *effective speed* (sum of the pseudo speeds) is what is used to determine whether the shuttles in the tractor tunnel are destroyed by dragging.

-T

By Daniel Bitseff (Cadet_Stimpy) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 02:43 pm: Edit

thanks Ted,
Ya, it looks like the wording of that rule has changed for the 2012 edition, so it is less clear.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 03:20 pm: Edit

Looking like I need to update my SFB collection....

Not sure how the 2012 rules edition reads. It's entirely possible that they changed this rule. If so, then I could be wrong.

I'm like 99% sure I'm right based on the wording of the rules version I have - but you should definitely get a more official ruling if this is a tournament game.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 03:21 pm: Edit

No.

(C2.451) Effective speed, being the actual rate at which the unit is
moving through space, is used for purposes of mines, asteroids,
rings, dust, recovering shuttles and fighters, destroying objects (e.g.,
shuttles) by towing them at high speed, collisions with small moons,
docking, and web damage.
EXAMPLE: If a ship is moving at a (practical) speed of four, but
its movement during the turn includes one additional hex caused by a
black hole directly ahead, the ship has moved five hexes and when
passing a mine would roll a die based on that effective speed. If,
however, the ship was moving at a practical speed of five away from
the black hole, with the movement effects of the hole “slowing” it to
four, the die roll would be based on a speed of four.
EXCEPTION: There is a special case when two (or more) units
are linked by tractor beams. In such cases, the units roll for damage
when one of them moves the combination, but use the “net effective
vector speed” instead of the effective speed. To calculate this,
assume that the ships spent an entire 32-impulse turn moving in the
directions they are and linked by tractor as they are. Calculate the
distance each ship would cover in such a hypothetical game turn and
use that as the “net effective vector speed”. Ships trying to pull each
other in opposition directions would have a NEV speed of zero.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 04:03 pm: Edit

@Richard,

I'm not sure what you are saying "no" to when you quote that rule, but in my 2004 version of the rule it's about as clear as a bell. I might, however, have an out of date rule:

---

Quote:

Note that shuttles are death-dragged as a result of the "effective
speed". This means that even if two ships tractored together are
moving in opposite directions or directly towards each other thereby
seeming to cancel out some movement. a shuttle will still be deathdragged
as a result of movement called for on a given impulse. The
fact that the movements are cancelled out does not change the fact
that effective speed is equal to the sum of the pseudo speeds as
stated in (C2.45)."

---

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 07:47 pm: Edit

Guys:

This question came up a while ago, and SVC rules that if the Net Effective Vector Speed is less than is required to death drag the shuttle (or shuttles), they the shuttles are not death dragged.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 07:50 pm: Edit

Ah, yes, using the NEV speed changes things.

My 2004 rules are clearly out of date.

By Daniel Bitseff (Cadet_Stimpy) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 08:31 pm: Edit

Thanks Steve,
So the next question is: how do you calculate the Net Effective Vector Speed? Or just let me know what it is for the given scenario ;)

Thanks!

By Daniel Bitseff (Cadet_Stimpy) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 08:45 am: Edit

Ok, I think the Net Effective Vector speed would be 12. This because you do a full turn’s moves for each ship & see where you end up. 12 moves direction A, and 9 moves direction C would put us 12 hexes away from the starting point. Which means no death-drag. Can anyone confirm?

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 08:58 am: Edit

I have no idea what the current official ruling is.....but this is in the 2012 Tournament book-

"The Tractor Tunnel (G7.943): Remember this ‘tunnel’ only works one way. It prevents you from using seeking weapons against fighters, drones, and shuttles, restricts their launch direction, and destroys shuttles riding the beam if your combined pseudo-speeds are more than 12 (G7.54)."

By Nick Blank (Nickgb) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 01:27 pm: Edit

Net Effective Vector Speed is described in the exception under rule (C2.451) in my electronic master rulebook, it is a special case of how to find effective speed when two ships are tractored.

And yes, you see how far the combination would move under present conditions if it held for a complete turn, and that is the NEV speed.

If you have two ships tractored together, one moving at a pseudo speed of 10 in direction A and one moving at a pseudo speed of 12 in direction D, the NEV would be 2, and any shuttle in the tractor tunnel would not be death dragged when either ship moves the combination.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Under (C7.451) the ships are moving A/C and would not totally cancel each other's movement, e.g., move A, then move C (or vice versa).

At that speed, the pseudo speeds would be 10 and 13 UNLESS impulse was being used by both ships (G7.36B) in which case the impulse power is ignored (both ships are Size Class 3 with the same movement cost, thus neither is larger) in which case the pseudo speeds are 9 and 12.

Assuming the direction of movement of both ships does not change [as per rule (C7.541)] if the pseudo speed is 23 (because neither ship used impulse to generate its movement plot) the shuttles will be death dragged. If the pseudo speed is 21 [because both ships had used a point of impulse which is ignored, but note that for some obscure reason the two players may have agreed that the impulse of one ship would be used, again see (G7.36B)], the shuttles would not be death dragged because the two ships would effectively only move 12 hexes.

However, if either ship used a point of impulse power and the other ship is not, that point of impulse power is used [again, (G7.36B)]. It is the same as both ships using only warp for movement and the pseudo speed is 23 and the shuttles will be death dragged

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 03:20 pm: Edit

This NEV and tractor tunnel is fascinating...

It is a rule change for me. And I haven't had the situation come up before.

I see that it as been ruled that the Suicide Shuttles are not destroyed.

So I'll ask my dumb questions.

1. Do the two Suicide Shuttles impact on the the next impulse? I recall (correctly I hope) that a seeking weapon launched at ranged 0 will impact on the next impulse before the target can move away?

2. If the two Suicide Shuttles are in a range 1 tractor tunnel and are scheduled to move and another ship is also scheduled to move, does the dragging of the tractor tunnel count as movement for the two Suicide Shuttles?

3. Can those two suicide shuttles be tractored on the next impulse if they are inside a tractor tunnel?

Thanks.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Are these rules questions or tactical advice for a current battle?