Richard,
It does matter if a ship or ships moves.
If at R0 or 1 ship A with a pseudo of 15 after tractoring other ship giving it a pseudo speed of 7, the pseudo speed 7 can launch a SS at speed 4 on imp 7 after movement at speed 4.
This SS will hit the pseudo speed 15 ship even though their combined speed is 22 as neither speed 7 or 15 moves this imp.

Therefore stands to reason if a ship at pseudo speed 12 and tractored ship at pseudo speed 9 which launches a SS at tractoring ship on imp 16, they move dragging the shuttle at speed 12 and the SS will hit the tractoring ship.

If both ships had been moving, then yes, the SS is death dragged but if only 1 ship is moving less then death dragging speed, the SS gets carried along in trac tunnel and moves toward tractoring ship.

This is how I understand the rule to be.

Cheers
Frank

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, July 29, 2020 - 10:07 pm: Edit

Which is why this is still being debated and needs Steve to state...not it was decided in the past. But this is the specific ruling. Vector speed means Add both and any movement means BOOM....or...vector speed means both only if both move. In which case Boom but if one moves then no Boom

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 01:38 am: Edit

(G7.54)
Note that shuttles are death-dragged as a result of the "effective speed". This means that even if two ships tractored together are moving in opposite directions or directly towards each other thereby seeming to cancel out some movement, a shuttle will still be death-dragged as a result of movement called for on a given impulse. The fact that the movements are cancelled out does not change the fact that effective speed is equal to the sum of the pseudo speeds as stated in (C2.45)

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 02:38 am: Edit

Wayne...that is not the issue....TWO that is TWO ships are MOVING.

Important words are highlighted. In that case....yes indeed....shuttle dies.

ONE ship and only ONE ship moves. Yes the other gets dragged. But only ONE is actually doing the moving.

So....with this in mind. It would appear that it should be shuttle survives. Unless the speed of the moving ship is in excess of 12.

Which is why we are having this discussion. The rule states two ships MOVING in opposite or the same direction. Or in any direction really. But it deals with BOTH moving at the same time.

Now if the rule said being tractored creates a Vector speed which is always present. And any movement by either ship or both...then we would not have this difference of opinion.

Frank and I can read the rule just fine. But it becomes ambiguous because it says when TWO ships move. Which makes sense. They act as a shearing effect on anything creating more speed than either are traveling. So...sure...both move...and BOOM goes shuttle. But one by itself moving should not cause that effect.

Not saying that if the ruling is it does the ruling is wrong. Just that it does not actually state that. All I want is a clear cut answer that says...yes....add both speeds....and if ANY ship moves it goes BOOM...or...only if both move do you add the speeds.

Not trying to be a jerk. Just want a very clear answer to this because reading it allows all the answers above to seem reasonable depending on how you read it based on what you think two means. Does it means simply one ship that is connected to a second ship...or does it mean both ships move.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 09:21 am: Edit

Don't see where the SS is Tractored...
So being in the Tunnel is the same as being tractored?

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 10:36 am: Edit

Shuttles in the "tractor tunnel"

(G7.9433) While on the map, such seeking weapons as described herein will be carried with the two units while they are moving under (G7.36). Those weapons cannot be rotated (and are not considered to be held) unless tractored separately. Seeking shuttles could suffer destruction by "death-dragging" (G7.54).

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 11:33 am: Edit

Thank you Wayne. As the rule you says, the SS is not considered tractored but could suffer destruction by "death-dragging" (G7.54).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Under (C7.451) the ships are moving A/C and would not totally cancel each other's movement, e.g., move A, then move C (or vice versa).

At that speed, the pseudo Speeds would be 10 and 13 UNLESS impulse was being used by both ships (G7.36B), in which case the impulse power is ignored (both ships are Size Class 3 with the same movement cost, thus neither is larger) in which case the pseudo speeds are 9 and 12.

Assuming the direction of movement of both ships does not change [as per rule (C7.541)] if the pseudo speed is 23 (because neither ship used impulse to generate its movement plot) the shuttles will be death dragged. If the pseudo speed is 21 [because both ships had used a point of impulse which is ignored, but note that for some obscure reason the two players may have agreed that the impulse of one ship would be used, again see (G7.36B)], the Shuttles would not be death dragged because the two ships would effectively only move 12 hexes.

However, if either ship used a point of impulse power and the other ship is not, that point of impulse power is used [again, (G7.36B)]. It is the same as both ships using only warp for movement and the pseudo speed is 23 and the shuttles will be death dragged

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 03:17 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick....

We know the pseudo speed is 12 and 9 as per what was stated.

Only one ship is scheduled to move. The speed 12 ship. The shuttle is scheduled to move and is in the tractor tunnel.

Therefore according to what you just said...the shuttle hits the target and does damage because it did not get blown up.

In general when two ships are moving opposite at the same time they would kill the shuttle. But in this case....more than any other lol....since only one is moving only one could even possibly be considered for the movement it is generating and that is the speed 12 ship which actually was scheduled to move and does move.

Is that correct or wrong?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 06:03 pm: Edit

Charles H. Carroll:

As the two ships have a net effective vector that will move them 12 hexes, the shuttle is not destroyed by the movement of a ship.

Now, if ship were to do a high energy turn such that it was facing in the same direction as the other ship, and then move (all on the same impulse) then the ships would be moving 21 hexes and the shuttle would be destroyed.

Net effective vector is the speed of the two ships, it does not matter if only one moves, it is traveling (in the specific case given) 12 hexes, and if the ships were not using impulse to move (such that the speeds would have been 10 and 13) it would have moved 13 total hexes and either moving would have death dragged the shuttles.

By Randy Green (Hollywood750) on Thursday, July 30, 2020 - 09:05 pm: Edit

Ugh. I've been persuaded both ways over the last 9 posts.

But I see in the tournament thread, that NEV is used for calculating death-dragging.

Release the hounds!

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Friday, July 31, 2020 - 01:45 am: Edit

I agree with Steve Petrick answers on the rules related to Charles Question . My posts are generally direction to the rules in question (Quoting relevant rules).

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Monday, August 03, 2020 - 12:49 pm: Edit

I know there is some were a list of how much some things take to Transport. Such as GCV and such. I can not find it. I know I did once any ideas were it is?

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Monday, August 03, 2020 - 03:04 pm: Edit

Vandar, are you asking about Annex #7K: Cargo Space Points? It's on page 156 of my copy of Module G3 (it's the `09 revision)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, August 03, 2020 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Annex #7K does list cargo space points, and the cargo capacity of various cargo carrying units. Rule (G25.0) provides for the movement of cargo under combat conditions (and non-combat) between units. However, the reference to GCVs is in (D15.0) because they are unique (something that can be moved by three transporters working together that still has to be assembled on site). There are also references in (C13.0) for movement between docked units.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Monday, August 03, 2020 - 06:01 pm: Edit

D15.820 happy me.. and tanks can only be deployed by shuttle or rolling out the ship.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, August 03, 2020 - 06:59 pm: Edit

Gregory S. Flusche:

Well ... a landed ship. If you roll them out of a ship that is not landed, the crews might mutiny, and since tank cannons going off inside of a ship is not healthy, your crew might join them to prevent your order from being carried out. Instead, they might "roll you out of the ship."

I can see your court martial now and your reliance on the defense of: "As God is my Witness, I thought the Anti-Grav systems on the tanks meant they could fly."

By Randy Green (Hollywood750) on Monday, August 03, 2020 - 07:38 pm: Edit

They.. can't.. fly?

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, August 03, 2020 - 11:14 pm: Edit

I hate auto correct.

It some times “helpfully” changes the word “or” to “are.”

And may I offer the example of how the United States Space Shuttle “flew”?

Answer:”like a brick”

It should also be pointed out that there is absolutely no reason not to deploy tanks out of flying shuttles.

The tanks work perfectly well, right up to the sudden stop at the end... Kinda hard on the crews, though.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Tuesday, August 04, 2020 - 12:27 am: Edit

I hate to add this, but IIRC, the specific rules state that not even normal HTS can carry tanks; if they're to be deployed by a shuttle, the only one that can is the HAS.

(I tried working out a story involving a Free Tanker, but the crew weren't believable. )

On the other hand, maybe Olivette Roche could do something about a Prime Team using the main tank gun to slow its otherwise free fall descent in one of her films?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, August 04, 2020 - 11:59 am: Edit

Jeff Anderson:

A Heavy Transport Shuttle or a Heavy Assault Shuttle can both carry tanks to a planetary (or lunar, or asteroidal) surface.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Tuesday, August 04, 2020 - 12:10 pm: Edit

Watch the "A Team" movie,
they showed how to drop a Hvy Tank
from an AC..

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Tuesday, August 04, 2020 - 01:07 pm: Edit

"IIRC."

(Guess I didn't... )

(A friend of mine told me about that scene, Mark, and just the way he described it made me want to NOT see the film! )

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Tuesday, August 04, 2020 - 02:11 pm: Edit

Jeff,

It was the only whole scene from the entire movie I've seen....
A tank on a parachute, fighting killer drones....
Wasn't even a ScyFy feature...

By Steven Zamboni (Szamboni) on Tuesday, August 04, 2020 - 02:53 pm: Edit

To be fair, they did not "drop" the Buford. It kind of fell out on its own when the airplane disintegrated.

(And for the record, the Buford was designed to be airdropped from a Hercules. The internal gun on the fast Predators was the bigger issue with the scene.)