Steve Petrick

This is still kind of funny. I know you feel you have made everything clear on the NEV. But realistically...it is not.

Here is the problem. It is how we say things. If one ship moving...has only its speed to worry about...that makes perfect sense.

But then you added in a concept of doing a HET....which is not movement. But now facing a none moving ship. And somehow that added the speed of the non moving ship to the NEV which is not added if you are not facing the ship.

I understand how if both ships are moving on the same impulse. You get a NEV of them added together. But if only one ship moves...no matter where it is facing...only one ship moved and there is no NEV or at least there should be no NEV.

It gets more complicated when we get into moving A and C which in this case should still add some vector which would take it over the 12 limit even if it was only some percentage. While if facing or directly away applies both speeds in full.

So my understanding of this...is....one ship moves. Only its speed is used. Two ships move away or towards each other...total speed added of each. If they move in some other way...I have no idea how much gets added but something or other does. A C would be different than A D because the angles would create less speed depending on which was being done. A B would be even more of the total speed should be added. So A B is most...A C is less...and A D is least. But all add something to the NEV.

And this is why people are confused lol.

Now without saying any rule...which is obviously not helping here since we keep saying yes but...and people saying I see it that way and others saying I do not. How about finding a simplified way to state this?

One ship moves. No NEV.
Two ships move toward or away. Full Speed of both.
Two ships move A B Add fastest ship plus 3/4 of slowest.
Two ships A C Add fastest ship plus 1/2 of slowest.
Two ships A D Add fastest ship plus 1/4 of slowest.

Because right now my head aches and I still am not certain about any of this. And from comments. No one else is certain either though many believe they now know even if they are wrong.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, August 05, 2020 - 01:43 pm: Edit

The rule doesn't say 1/4 or 3/4 or anything.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, August 05, 2020 - 01:53 pm: Edit

The idea is you are trying to find the actual rate of movement experienced by the two units that are tractored together. If they're going the same way, you just add their speeds (we're assuming both units are move one here and ignoring impulse engine concerns). If they're going opposite directions, you take the difference of their speeds. If they are going at an angle to each other that isn't the above, you need to do the more complex thing:

You look at the map of where they are. You look at their untractored speeds. You temporarily move the stack a number of hexes equal to one unit's untractored speed in the direction that unit is moving (ie B if it is moving in B). You THEN do the same thing to the stack using the OTHER unit's direction and speed. You then count the distance from the original position to where the stack is now. THAT'S your Net Vector Effective speed, and if it is greater than 12, any admin shuttles in the tractor tunnel are death dragged when either (or both) of the two ships move. If neither ship moves on an impulse, the shuttles are not death dragged on that impulse.

This calculation is not affected by whether or not one of the two ships is scheduled to move on the impulse you are looking for the effective speed.

***

Let me put it this way:

Tell me the hex, untractored speeds, and facings of the two ships, and the exact ship class of each of the two ships and I'll walk you through the process to the answer.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, August 05, 2020 - 03:12 pm: Edit

Charles H. Carroll:

Two ships are moving, their movement cost is 1 for one ship and 0.50 for the other ship, their speeds are individual.

The two ships have a tractor link, their speeds are recalculated based on the combined mass. The combined mass has a movement cost of 1.50. This cost is used to determine their speed across the map.

If the ships are directly opposed (whether #1 shield faces #1 shield, or #4 shield faces #4 shield), the effect is canceling of the movement of one ship, and the retarding of the movement of the other ship. That is to say if both ships had been moving speed 10 the ship with a movement cost of .50 would move the combined mass 3 hexes, and the ship with a movement cost of 1 would move the combined mass 6 hexes, we can assume that the movement cost 1 ship used a point of impulse for movement (cost effective) and as the larger ship can use its point to impulse to move the combined mass, so it moves 7 hexes. (The movement cost 0.50 ship's use of impulse power would have been ignored, as it is the smaller ship and in any case would not have used impulse for movement since it is not cost effective).

Since they are opposed to each other, the effect will be to move the two ships only four (4) hexes in the favor of the larger ship.

Note, there are no fractions to work from. The smaller ship would spend 4.5 points of its power to move the three hexes, but the fraction that is left is, at least temporarily, lost, although it would be regained if the tractor is released. The larger ship would nominally be wasting a point of power (nine points of generated power is moving the combined mass six hexes and the remaining point is not normally sufficient to move a mass of 1.5, but as it was a point of impulse, it moves the combined mass one hex).

Now, lets assume the ships are moving speed 20.

Again, the movement cost 0.50 ship would have an effective speed of 9 for the combined mass (1.50 divided by 10 warp engine power normally needed to move speed 20, again the 1 point of warp power is effectively lost as long as the two ships are tractored). The movement cost 1.00 ship is at speed 13 (19.5 points of warp, or if it was using a point of impulse, 18 warp and one impulse, in either case it either has a full point of warp or a half point of warp that cannot be used). However, once again, we stated that the ships were opposed directly, so the speed they are moving across the map is only (13 - 9 = ) four.

So, one of the ships launches suicide shuttles. After all, there is no danger they will be death dragged.

So the player who is targeted consults the impulse chart. He notes that the shuttles will move on the next impulse and hit his ship. He also notes that on the next impulse his pseudo speed moves. So, on the next impulse he does a high energy turn, which is before his ship actually moves, and then moves. The Net Effective Vector becomes Speed 21, and the shuttles are death dragged.

The HET has no direct effect on the speed of the units, but by turning his ship, he gains the boost of his opponent to death drag the shuttles.

If his ship had not been scheduled to move on that impulse, the HET would have had no effect other than changing which shield on his ship the shuttles would impact (unless the enemy ship moved, which combined with his HET would have had the same death dragging effect).

Of course the enemy ship could HET also, and the shuttles would not be death dragged.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, August 05, 2020 - 08:08 pm: Edit

Lol

Steve Petrick....Me talking to Steve

We know the pseudo speed is 12 and 9 as per what was stated.

Only one ship is scheduled to move. The speed 12 ship. The shuttle is scheduled to move and is in the tractor tunnel.


His reply to this specific comment is below.

Charles H. Carroll:

As the two ships have a net effective vector that will move them 12 hexes, the shuttle is not destroyed by the movement of a ship.

Which as I read that....since only one ship moved. Only one ship matters and only one ship is counted.

Now as for Steve's comments. Ok that makes some sense to me But now we are where the rule seemed to say if they are moving effectively speed 0...as in their ship moves but are scheduled to move because they are going in opposite or the same direction...that the shuttle would still die.

Now I understand the concept of you HET...and both of you are now facing the same direction and this makes your speed combined. But...we still have only one ship moving. So only the ship that moves speed is important or is according to a lot of the things said before. On the one hand and it does not matter on the other hand because we add both ships together now even though only one moved. And it looks like if both move opposite now they do not death drag because of being stopped by each other. Or slowed to a crawl if one is bigger.

While I appreciate the intricacies of interstellar movement based on Newtonian Physics which may or may not apply at warp speeds. The vector should never kill a shuttle if both ships are to move toward or away from each other because it cancels out. Assuming a 1 to 1 ratio.

I am just getting lost here as it appears Steve is saying one thing then something else.

And...then we get into the totally confusing idea as Richard has brought in about move in a straight line the number of hexes you would move to figure Vector Speed. If both ships...at 1 to 1...to simplify...are now moving speed 10 and were moving speed 20. they each move 10 hexes. So we have a vector speed of 20? Which would kill a shuttle. Since both ships would be moving. But if one ships speed cut in half by the tractor reduced it to speed 12(24) and the other ship reduced it to speed 9(18) then we would be looking at speed 21 for a vector. And if not...is that because we now have to see how far apart they are lol? We know how far they move.

And yes...I am a little confused lol With something that should be fairly easy to find out without needing a calculator, and a physics program.

I still have not had a clear answer on the if only one ship moves in the direction it was heading. Does that ship death drag the shuttle when it's speed was 12...and the other ship which did not move was 9? If I read Steve right...it does not. Forget everything about warp or impulse. The speed has be calculated and is known. After all calculations it is 12 and 9. So dead or not?

Then we can get into both move but not in the same direction....some straight at each other...some away from each other and some at various angles to each other.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, August 05, 2020 - 08:28 pm: Edit

"I still have not had a clear answer on the if only one ship moves in the direction it was heading. Does that ship death drag the shuttle when it's speed was 12...and the other ship which did not move was 9? If I read Steve right...it does not. Forget everything about warp or impulse. "

What direction is the first ship (speed 12) moving?
What directions is the second ship (speed 9) moving?

"The speed has be calculated and is known. After all calculations it is 12 and 9. So dead or not?"

You haven't done all calculations. You have to calculate the net vector effective speed and to do that we also need to know the directions the ships are moving.

"One" ship of the two tractor linked cannot move alone. In no case is only one ship considered to have moved, but not the other.

Regardless of which direction ship movement happens (on the impulse the move happens), if the effective speed (calculated by the procedures in the rules) is higher than 12, the shuttle will be death dragged. Note that while tractor-linked, the two ships will always have the same effective speed. Until the two ships are not tractor linked, there will never be a point where their effective speeds differ. This is not affected by whether one or both or neither are scheduled to move in a given impulse, the calculation for effective speed at a given point doesn't care about that.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Wednesday, August 05, 2020 - 10:22 pm: Edit

Well that...is not what Steve said lol...in that he said with one ship moving its net effective vector was 12. And the shuttle survives. So there is confusion somewhere. Who is confused besides me and half the people I play with seems to be the other half. As we all say read the rules...and then say the opposite.

Ok as for direction....one is A....the 12....and the other is C the 9.

And the impulse came up...and 6 and 12 move. But 9 does not.

By Peter DiMitri (Pdimitri) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 09:53 am: Edit

SPP,

I have a non-tractor follow up to a previous conversation. I think you were pretty clear in your answers, but I am second guessing myself and want to be absolutely sure.

At Weapons status 2, 2 of your fighters can be fully armed as a combat space patrol. You indicated in your previous answer that they can be armed with sabot plasma.

At weapons status 3, all of your fighters are fully armed but do not start with Sabot. However, what about those 4 fighters that can be pre-launched under WS III? Are those treated the same as the CSP in WS II - meaning that they can already be armed with Sabot? Otherwise if they are pre-launched, you would have no way to arm them with Sabot since they are already off the ship.

Thank you in advance and sorry if I am getting unduly confused.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 11:13 am: Edit

The original case that started this NEV discussion had the tractor tunnel at range 0. Seeking weapons launched at range 0 always hit the target on the next impulse before the target could move, even within a tractor tunnel. Steve SPP has ruled on this matter.

There are interesting possibilities if the tractor tunnel was at range 1. As explained by SPP, a HET by the target could change the NEV in such a way to "tractor tunnel" drag the 2 suicide shuttles. (Presumably, HET and move would be preferable.) A HET does not change the psuedo speed. The other ship could also HET to change the NEV in his favor. Presumably this is written down in secret by both players before the next impulse is run.

Assuming that it is the next impulse and the target has the capability and the shuttles did not move, then he could tractor the 2 suicide shuttles, launch seeking weapons at the 2 suicide shuttles (only if the impulse chart is favorable for this - I would hate to have one's own seekers follow the shuttles when they impact the target), or fire phasers at the 2 suicide shuttles. Let us not forget that a crippled shuttle is easier to tractor drag. Lastly, the target could use reserve warp to increase his speed, forcing a recalculation of the NEV in his favor.

I forgot one, the target could turn (assuming the turn mode at the psuedo speed is satisfied), forcing a recalculation of the NEV for the purpose of "tractor tunnel" dragging the two shuttles.

Of course, the next time the shuttles move, they will impact the target.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 12:21 pm: Edit

John Stiff said:
"Seeking weapons launched at range 0 always hit the target on the next impulse before the target could move, even within a tractor tunnel. Steve SPP has ruled on this matter."

I think you are confused. The following rule shows this is not the case, it says in such a case, the target could move on the next impulse and the seeking weapon would then move using the normal seeking weapon rules.

(F2.32) SAME HEX LAUNCH: If the seeking weapon is launched in
the same hex as its target, the Sequence of Play allows the target the
opportunity to fire at the seeking weapon (assuming other conditions,
such as having a charged weapon available, are met). [Deleted some irrelevant text].
(F2.322) If the target moves out of the hex during the impulse after
launch, the seeking weapon will follow the target as per the normal
rules.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 02:07 pm: Edit

Richard while true on the range zero and ship move issue....the Seeker would still automatically hit the ship. It is dragged along. And then being at range zero this being the next impulse. It hits.

Now if it was death dragged...it would not. Obviously there is the shot shuttle and it dies option the last impulse. But if nothing happens...and then ship moves. Ship still gets hit.

On a separate note. Richard I use Discord and Pauls Room. For SFB and Warlords. We could meet there and discuss this if you wish? I am easy lol. There I am Nosferatu. We can also talk voice rather than chat. Though both would be fine.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 02:26 pm: Edit

John L. Stiff:

I do not think I said the seeking weapons would hit the target before it could move if it (the target) was scheduled to move. The Order of Precedence says that Monsters, Ships, Shuttles, all move before seeking weapons.

Further seeking weapons have to have a facing when launched.

If the seeking weapons were launched at Range Zero on Impulse #N, and the ship moved on Impulse #N+1, it would not be at Range Zero.

This can be further complicated.

The Seeking weapons may not be scheduled to move on Impulse #N+1. If the ship was fast enough (after it left the hex of launch/Range Zero) it could just move away and leave the seeking weapons behind on subsequent impulses.

If the Seeking weapons were also scheduled to move on Impulse #N+1, then (F2.123) comes into force. The ship could side slip as it left the hex, and the Seeking weapons must move straight. The ship could do a high energy turn and leave the hex, the Seeking Weapons must, again, move straight (or use their HET, but lose a hex of movement for doing so and do not strike the ship on that impulse).

But note that if the Seeking weapons were launched on Impulse #N, and neither the target unit (at Range Zero) or the Seeking weapons move on Impulse #N+1, then the seeking weapons strike the Target. This is true even if the target ship is moving Speed 31 and the Seeking weapons are moving Speed 1 (Seeking weapon launched at Range Zero on Impulse #32 and the Target, previously moving Speed 16, accelerated to Speed 31 the next turn, it still could not avoid the Speed 1 Seeking weapons in its hex and could not leave the hex, barring of course a tractor rotation or a delayed movement from the previous turn). Note, the may be moving as part of being tractored to another unit, and that combination may not move on Impulse #N+1.

Peter DiMitri:

Yes, the four fighters can have sabot if they are launched at start. However, if you decided to hold them in the bay, hey do not have sabot at start. LAUNCHED units can have sabot at start denoting a decision by the Commander at the time. Unlaunched units cannot have sabot, and must have the power allocated. You cannot allocate power to arm already launched units and so must have made the decisions at the time they were launched.

Charles H. Carroll:

That IS what I said. Any time the two linked ships move they are moving at the SPEED of the COMBINATION even though each ship moves individually when its Pseudo Speed is called for. So if the Net Effective Vector is 13 and a ship moving Speed 9 moves, it is Moving Speed 13 and the shuttles die.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 02:29 pm: Edit

The Answer above was composed while Charles H. Carroll was posting his missive and was meant to address same hex launch, not the tractor tunnel. The final paragraph addressed the tractor tunnel.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 03:54 pm: Edit

I will decline your gracious invitation, Charles.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 04:30 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick

See we keep using ideas that are not very clear. Now you state something that was never discussed by anyone but you in our conversations.

Speed 12. Top speed of a ship. Speed 9...top speed of a ship. When they are tractored. So speed 6 shuttle. Speed 12 ship. Ship moves in direction A dragging along a ship that is one hex from it and tractored. That ship is moving direction C but is not scheduled to move this impulse.

So...you seem to be saying speed 12 is the vector speed. Since speed 13 was your adding in if it was using Impulse and other things that made no difference to what speed it was going after its speed had been calculated.

So...at speed 12 of one ship and speed 9 of the other...when a single ship moves. Is the vector speed 21? 12? Since the speed 12 ship moved...or some modified speed based on exactly what direction they are moving in...as in A and C.

In no case that I can see...would a speed 12 ship generate a speed 13 vector speed.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 04:34 pm: Edit

NP Richard am just trying to find a simple way to clear this up so I understand what you feel is a good way to do this type situation. Typing back and forth here...over several days...while we wait for the other to come on, takes quite a while and we lose a lot of what we are thinking at the time. Anyway it was just a thought to speed this up.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Richard already did.

---

Quote:

The idea is you are trying to find the actual rate of movement experienced by the two units that are tractored together. If they're going the same way, you just add their speeds (we're assuming both units are move one here and ignoring impulse engine concerns). If they're going opposite directions, you take the difference of their speeds. If they are going at an angle to each other that isn't the above, you need to do the more complex thing:

You look at the map of where they are. You look at their untractored speeds. You temporarily move the stack a number of hexes equal to one unit's untractored speed in the direction that unit is moving (ie B if it is moving in B). You THEN do the same thing to the stack using the OTHER unit's direction and speed. You then count the distance from the original position to where the stack is now. THAT'S your Net Vector Effective speed, and if it is greater than 12, any admin shuttles in the tractor tunnel are death dragged when either (or both) of the two ships move. If neither ship moves on an impulse, the shuttles are not death dragged on that impulse.

This calculation is not affected by whether or not one of the two ships is scheduled to move on the impulse you are looking for the effective speed.

---

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 05:12 pm: Edit

I will add this, the OLD version of the rules creates confusion. My 2004 version of the MRB led me to the wrong conclusion on this issue.

So, make sure you have the latest MRB version.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 05:33 pm: Edit

Charles H. Carroll:

Sigh.

The discussion started with ships moving at a speed of 20 and 26.

Both were movement cost 1 ships, and both were expending point of impulse power for movement, so the impulse power was ignored, resulting in pseudo speeds of (2.0 movement cost divided by 19 points of warp power is) 9 and (2.0 movement cost divided by 25 points of warp power is) 12. There was in this case a fraction left (two points of power from each ship could not be used for movement because one of the points was impulse in each case).

So nominally the ships had an effective speed of (9 + 12 =) 21. So, nominally, any time either of the ships moved a shuttle would have been death dragged.

However, ship A was moving in direction A, and ship B was moving in direction C. The ship which was tractored (a WYN Tournament shark) Launched suicide shuttles (he had two bays and could launch two shuttles). These were trapped in the tractor tunnel. If the ships did not move on the next impulse (Impulse #N+1), the shuttles would impact.

The ships did move, and the shuttles were carried along in the tractor tunnel, or were they? It turns out that the net effective vector of the ships was 12, and shuttles were not death dragged..

By Jason Gray (The_Hood) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 06:08 pm: Edit

And even more interesting, one of the Suicide Shuttles was fired upon and became crippled but when the Shark was next called to move the ship was able to Turn, which resulted in the NEV dropping from 12 to 3!! Thus saving the SS from being death-dragged.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 06:31 pm: Edit

Yes, if the moving ship was ship A and turned in direction F, or the moving ship was ship B and turned in direction D the Net Effective Vector would have dropped to three.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 08:49 pm: Edit

Steve I Appreciate the time it is taking on this. And the effort you are putting in to Educate me. But as Ted just explained. You are wrong no matter what you think lol. According to Ted and many on here...if either ship moves...the speeds are added. Period. So any movement results in a death dragged shuttle.

Yet here you are saying in several cases such as what I asked...Dir A and Dir C...then it is somehow 12. And if such and such with one ship still moving it becomes speed 3. So NO it is not add them together and anytime a ship moves BOOM goes the shuttle.

So to Ted I say I cannot state this any clearer as to why there is an issue lol. On the one hand...Ted's hand....its cut and dried. Speed 21 cause one ship is 9 and one is 12. On the other...nope....it varies all over the place. And under some situations it may well be 21, or 22 or 13 depending on if Warp Was used by one but not the other since that wouldn't matter, Or it does but not in this case or....

See when you tell me Steve, that the shuttle does not blow up...and Ted assures me you said it did...yet the words used was no it didn't. At this point....I am still just confused lol

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 10:10 pm: Edit

It may be that SFB is too complex for you. I've seen it happen before. :-(

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 11:01 pm: Edit

No need to be insulting, derogatory or rude.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, August 06, 2020 - 11:39 pm: Edit

If you have an issue with my post, contact a moderator. You yourself are not one.