Whilst the A20 and F111 were ultimatey chosen as the Federations heavy fighters, there was a proposal to just buy a single design that basically split the difference. Simply, it's fatal flaw was both the prototypes crashed on their initial flight (into each other) and there was no time to build replacements in time for evaluation...

Specs. Take ALL the systems of the F111 and A20. Add them together, and divide by two. So a smaller internal bay, 1 photon, etc...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, August 14, 2020 - 12:29 am: Edit

No,Nono,nonono, twenty six times no!

If the F-111 and the A-20 were not built, the first thing that has to happen is a fast A-10 variant must be deployed to ensure the safety and security of the Federation!

The reason SPP has repeatedly killed a speed upgrade for the A-10 is because it makes the A-20 redundant and obsolete.

No A-20 means we can argue (I hope, successfully) for a A-10F.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, August 14, 2020 - 01:22 am: Edit

no

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, August 14, 2020 - 10:36 am: Edit

I don't think a lack of A20s automatically caused A10Fs to exist.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, August 14, 2020 - 02:16 pm: Edit

OK. SVC says HECK NO. Just a thought for some future module J project as "what might have been."

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Friday, August 14, 2020 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Actually, this potential fighter reminded me of the D57 Friguiser (Star Fleet Times #4)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 14, 2020 - 04:33 pm: Edit

Richard Eitzen:

Six A-20s take the space of a dozen A-10s. You have the choice between the six A-20s and the dozen A-10s. So space issues are a wash.

Both come with 12 deck crews. The carrier can purchase four extra deck crews, and if there is another squadron they can borrow the deck crews from them. So deck crews are a wash.

Six A-20Fs have a BPV of 108. A dozen A-10s have a BPV of 120 (122 if an A-10E EWF is taken). Slight edge to the A-20s.

Both have a dozen photons, so it is a wash (if an A-10E is present, then only 11 photons for the A-10 squadron).

The A-10 has grossly inferior drone launch rate and cannot carry special drones, but in terms of drone spaces, it is a wash (24 total drone spaces), but a slight edge goes to the A-20 for the special rails and drone launch rate (A-20s can launch all 24 in one turn while the A-10s can launch all 24 in two turns.) If an A10E is taken, then only 22 drone rails on the A-10s.

The A-10 has two phaser-3s, the A-20 has a phaser-2 and a phaser-3, so again an edge to the A-20s, but the A-20 squadron has only 12 phasers over all, versus the A-10 squadrons 24 phasers over all.

The finite edge the A-20 has over the A-10 is an ADD rack, which the A-10 has nothing to counter, per se, but see the phaser numbers above.

The A-20 has a built in EW pod, and one A-20 can act as an EWF for the whole Squadron. The A-10 relies on an EWF (A-10E), so an edge to the A-20. (See photon numbers and drone numbers.)

A-20s have only 12 pod rails. A-10s have 24 pod rails.

However, if you increased the speed of the A-10 to 15 to match the A-20F, the fact that a squadron of A-20s can be destroyed by 108 damage points (54 if using warp packs), or crippled by 72 damage points (36 if using warp packs), while an A-10 squadron is destroyed by 184 damage points (92 if using warp packs) or crippled by 132 damage points (66 if using warp packs) pretty much makes the A-10 squadron the preferred choice.

If you equip the A-20 squadron with Mega-Packs, that adds 12 damage points (120 to destroy the squadron); if you equip the A-10F squadron with Mega-packs it adds 24 points (208 damage points).

So, yes, if you increase the speed of the A-10 to 15, the A-20 will not be selected.

Caveat: An A-20 squadron can be launched in 11 impulses from a single bay with a single hatch and might be carried on mech-links where all can be launched at once. An A-10 squadron requires 23 impulses to launch from a single bay with a single hatch and cannot be carried on mech-links.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, August 14, 2020 - 04:39 pm: Edit

I think Jeff was saying that if A20s didn't exist, A10Fs automatically would.

I was saying I didn't think so.

I'm not making any sort of comparison.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 14, 2020 - 05:59 pm: Edit

Richard Eitzen:

My apologies for my obvious misunderstanding of your point.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, August 14, 2020 - 10:06 pm: Edit

The problem is trying to make a hybrid fighter out of a space superiority fighter (The F-111) and an assault fighter (the A-20).

Merging the two designs dilutes the best features of both and results in a mediocre design (IMO).

Now if you were to take two A-10 fighters, and put them together (like a F-82 that combined two P-51 fighters) You might have something (like a 2+ space) heavy fighter. I haven’t run the numbers but if you added a ADD launcher... well, my point is use two similar base fighters that are similar types instead of a mid smash of superiority plus assault types.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, August 14, 2020 - 11:20 pm: Edit

What I typed was “mishmash” auto correct changed it to “mid smash” sorry I didn’t catch the error in time to fix it.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, August 15, 2020 - 12:00 pm: Edit

If you put two A-10s together, you get a B-52 (tongue firmly in cheek).

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Saturday, August 15, 2020 - 12:14 pm: Edit

The love shack is a little old place where
We can get together
Love shack baby

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, August 15, 2020 - 12:29 pm: Edit

I was just trying to illustrate the point that unlike things added together, do not necessarily result in a superior design.

I was not trying to sneak a bomber into a heavy fighter slot.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, August 15, 2020 - 01:16 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

And I did not make such an accusation. The A-10 is pretty much the largest (in terms of damage points) single space fighter at 16 damage points (the number of damage points of a typical "two-space" fighter, and why the A-20 has 18 damage points to be larger than it). Two of them together would be 32 damage points (the same number as the B-52) with four phaser-3s (one more than the original design for the B-52, but later models had two phaser-2s and a phaser-3, a bit more firepower than four phaser-3s), and two photons. The four drone rails on the A-10s do not really compare with the six (or later eight) rails on the B-52, and there is no "internal bay." (Or EW pod.) But it was worth the joke.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, August 15, 2020 - 02:21 pm: Edit

One thing I'm not clear on...

Is this a proposal for something that never existed? Or is it a proposal for something for which a small number of prototypes were built, but which never entered even low-rate serial production?

From Mike Grafton's initial post, I think it's the latter. But I'm not sure.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, August 15, 2020 - 02:24 pm: Edit

Good one.

But back to the proposal.

Mike Grafton seemed to be trying to build a multiple role fighter... by splitting the differences between the F-111 and A-20 types.

IIRC the high intensity combat missions that the F-111 and A-20 were built for requires the systems and abilities of each type.

What I do not understand is why a hybrid is needed? You have F-18 fighters, F-101. Is there a need for another fighter type between what the F-111 and A-20 offer and what the F-18/F-101 deliver?

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Saturday, August 15, 2020 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Strikes me as an attempt to fill multiple roles; drone atttack and heavy weapon attack. IMO, this appears to make for something that would fail to fill either role well, perhaps even fill either role adequately.

And, with no disrespect intended, also reminds me of the adage that a camel is a horse designed by a committee.

Still, compared with a LOT of the things I've tried to make, it's not such a bad idea.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, August 15, 2020 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Good point.

Unless Mikes idea is a kit for any of several civilian shuttles to fill a specific need...

About the only one that comes to mind is if several colonies far out on the rim of the empire cooperate to buy one or two kits for a 2 space Cargo shuttle (HTS?). Three or four colonies might be able to afford what Ever this supposed kit is, they could (just barely) deploy a (kit) bomber squadron for community (collective) defense missions.

That way no colony is losing out lending part of their own defenses, And the ad hoc bomber squadron could provide a little more defense muscle.

If the kit relied on drones, phasers, The bombers could be serviced on a casual fighter base using the famous Kzinti weightlifting rule.

Think of it as a cousin to the F-7 shuttle kit.

Problem is, I am not sure if it’s possible to give a cargo shuttle the ability to use a phaser in such a kit.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, August 15, 2020 - 06:01 pm: Edit

There are three Federation "Kit" bombers: The B-24, the B-26, and the B-32.

The B-26 is already a kit conversion of a size class 2/heavy transport shuttle adding four drones.

The B-24 is a kit conversion of a size class 3 shuttle (six type-I drones), and the B-32 is a kit conversion of a size class 4 shuttle (eight type-I drones).

None of the kits installed a phaser (or phasers) on the cargo shuttle.

So, no, you are not getting a new kit that somehow adds more drones and/or a phaser/phasers.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, August 15, 2020 - 06:55 pm: Edit

Steve,

Just for forms sake.

The kits that you referred to, were developed and deployed circa years 164-167.

Mike Grafton was talking about a new model hybrid fighter developed after the prototype F-111 and A-20 crashed (at a guess year 168 perhaps).

If (and this is not written in stone or anything durable) Mike Graftons hybrid assault shuttle were to be developed, its only possible weaponry would have to be drones or other rail mounted weapons or pods.

Without a weapons bay, means no photon installed internally.

The questions that will need to be answered are:

1. Add a special rail instead of an existing pair of drone rails?
2. Could this kit allow for one or two photons to be mounted on the wings as was done with the B-52 and (I think) B-47 bombers?
3. Could a new bomber kit allow for the full list of bomber or fighter equipment. (Examples include cargo pods, sensor pods, RALADs, Phaser pod, chaff, EW pod.)
4. Could a kit allow a cargo shuttle to guide its own drones?

Not trying to pick on Mike Grafton, but it seems to me that a colony is better protected if it has 12 admin shuttles, and the seeking weapons control channels to control a series of scatter pack launches than a squadron of hybrid assault superiority fighters. (This is because of the list of restrictions SPP posted. No phasers, limited drone rails etc.)

With a Defense battalion (or two?) any colony needing more protection could do worse than buy a hanger ground module with a drone stock pile. If the intent is to simply add the scatter packs to the colonies defenses, it would be cheaper and easier to just pay for any drone speed upgrades instead of buying cheap bombers.

Plus, admin shuttles are less expensive than the 2, 3 or 4 space cargo shuttles.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, August 15, 2020 - 09:01 pm: Edit

Well if I was the Governor of a small out of the way colony. First I can recruit Militia for the defense battalion. That should help vs a pirate raider landing and running off with goods. That would not stop one from taking the poor freighter in orbit around the planet. Ground phasers might work to help that.

However buying a stockpile of drones to put on our admin shuttles for a scatter pack? Were will I get the control channels. I could have a ground based drone base? That would give a reason for the drones. Still not great since it would take forever for the drones to get out of the atmosphere.

I would rather have a few old fighters. That my hotshot young shuttle pilots play around on. Would the cost of fuel and upkeep be worth it? Not sure,

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, August 15, 2020 - 09:48 pm: Edit

Gregory?
I did stipulate that a defense battalion needed to be present.

Look again, It’s right there in the body of the post.

The general idea was instead of buying a second defense battalion, a colony might consider buying a hanger and 12 more admin shuttles to increase the defenses of the colony.

NOT INSTEAD OF A DEFENSE BATTALION, rather I meant in addition to.

I am sorry that you were confused by the post.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, August 15, 2020 - 11:37 pm: Edit

Keff W. I dunno where you got the idea above. Please re-read my original post.

What I proposed was something that was SUPPOSED to be a competitor to the F111 and A20 that wasn't successful. So UNV or maybe CONJ.

And to be honest, the guys are right, with just one Photon it doesn't have the scare power of the A20. And with less drones than the F111 it comes off worse there too. About the only advantage it might present is that it does SOME of all the roles... And you can standardize on one fighter rather than supporting 2 kinds with the issues of ready racks/ mech links, etc.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Sunday, August 16, 2020 - 08:40 am: Edit

??? Jeff,,,,

Was not saying anything about the defense battalion. Just that recruiting one would be easy.

The only thing I was thinking about was using Admin shuttles as scatter packs. At WS-1 by the time you get them loaded and launched out of atmosphere the battle is over. I am not sure but I think even at a higher WS civilian units can not have special shuttles ready?

The Bomber kits would be the best buy over just using regular Admin shuttles.

I have noted that in every planetary assault battle we have played in SFBOL using Matts game engine. Every single shuttle is launched from the Agro and Mining bases. Brave men, women and beings protecting there homes in time of war.