The problem Richard is we end up using different rules and different requirements. Not the level of complexity. But thanks for your opinion lol.

And here is why this get confusing...one rule says that for tractoring you use the net effective speed. Which as Ted keeps saying is 21. But then there is an exception. Which as Richard was nice enough to cover deals instead with Net Vector Speed. Which requires you to actually move ships around the board, and see where you end up to determine how fast that ship is actually going.

And THAT is the speed that is used to determine if the shuttle went boom. This conversation and all dealing with it seem to bounce back and forth as if Practical and Vector are the same thing.

So as Steven Petrick is saying the ship if its NEV is 12 the shuttle would not blow up is correct. And he talked about an NEV of 13. Well as far as I can tell. The actual NEV of the speed 12 ship is actually 13. Because at the end of the turn, that is how many hexes from its original hex, the ship went caused by the give and take of each ship moving forward but then mostly sideways and some backwards.

So assuming I did as required by the rule "To calculate this, assume that
the ships spent an entire 32-impulse turn moving in the directions
they are heading and linked by a tractor as they are. Calculate the
distance each ship would cover in such a hypothetical game turn and
use that as the “net effective vector speed."

Now based on doing that the speed 12 ship ended up moving 13. Though it also had another move carried over into the next turn which I gather does not matter. So from my calculations and moving the ships...it would appear the shuttle should blow up. But Steve says the speed was 12 for the two ships. I Now think it would be 13.

But as mentioned it could be more or less depending on if a ship turns. And as it states if the ships are heading away from each other the NEV is 0 so the shuttle would survive. But then if they were heading toward each other it should also be 0 and shuttles would survive.

If however the ship turned in the same direction as the other one by a HET, then they would indeed have a NEV of 21. Since they would straight line across the board.

So....where did I go wrong Steve? Or Richard?

By Peter DiMitri (Pdimitri) on Friday, August 07, 2020 - 11:10 am: Edit

Thank you again SPP!

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Friday, August 07, 2020 - 12:58 pm: Edit

One last point I messed up....Steve did say speed 3. And when a speed 12 and a speed 9 are facing each other or moving away from each other....the NEV would be 3. That, like moving together in a direction, is a simple math problem. You add when moving together and subtract the lower from the higher when moving toward or away.

So facing or away...12 - 9 = 3 because that is the actual number of hexes the two ships move.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 07, 2020 - 04:48 pm: Edit

Charles H. Carroll:

If two ships are linked by tractor, both are slowed resulting in their having a "Pseudo Speed," in this case movement cost 1 ships, so that the resulting Pseudo Speed for each ship is half of the warp power allocated to movement ignoring fractions.

Thus a ship moving a Practical Speed of 26 expending 25 points of warp power and one point of impulse power generates 12 hexes of movement (as noted before, the rule says to ignore impulse power unless the players agree for one ship to use it), which is its Pseudo Speed.

Thus a ship moving a Practical Speed of 20 expending 19 points of warp power and one point of impulse power generates 9 hexes of movement (as noted before, the rule says to ignore impulse power unless the players agree for one ship to use it), which is its Pseudo Speed.

The sum of their combined Pseudo Speeds is (12 + 9 =) 21 hexes of movement, or an Effective Speed of 21.

However, should the ships be moving in completely opposite directions (A/D, B/E, C/F), while they will still move on the impulses they are called on to move at their Pseudo Speeds, their movement across the map is retarded. Thus a ship that moved 12 hexes in direction A would be pulled nine hexes in direction D with the result that it actually only moved three hexes. The ship that was moving nine hexes in direction D would instead be pulled three hexes in direction A, that is to say that it would be as if it were moving Speed 3 in reverse.

For purposes of shuttle death dragging, the combined ships thus have a Net Effective Vector of three.

If the ships were both moving in direction A, they would still have Pseudo Speeds of 12 and 9 hexes respectively, and would move an Effective Speed of 21 hexes across the map. So when either ship moved the combination, it would be sufficient to death drag a shuttle.

If the ships were moving A/F, or A/B, the effect would not reduce the ships's total movement. The combination would still move 21 hexes across the map (and a shuttle would be death dragged by the movement of either ship).

If the ships were moving A/C or A/E, even though they are called on to move, 21 times (12 times for the faster ship, 9 times for the slower ship), the combination will only move 12 hexes on the map (the fact that a move will have been delayed until next turn, or that the tractors can be released or either ship may change direction during the current turn, or even do a plotted or unplotted acceleration in a future impulse, is ignored, the speed is a spot speed for the impulse to judge whether or not a shuttle would be death dragged). Thus 12 is the Net Effective Vector for the two ships. And 12 is too slow to death drag a shuttle.

As an additional comment. I understand that you think I am wrong, and that I have not consistently answered the same question the same way from your point of view. But the answer is correct, and has been consistently answered. I have to accept that I am failng to explain this to you, and the fault is therefore mine.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Friday, August 07, 2020 - 06:47 pm: Edit

SPP,

Perhaps I misstated what you actually said. It was NOT intentional. Since I am a retired programmer, I assumed that we were talking about the range 0 tractor tunnel (not the general case). How about this?

Suicide shuttles launched at range zero while inside a tractor tunnel will impact the target on the next impulse.

The reason is that the range 0 suicide shuttles are carried by the tractor tunnel if the target (or other ship) did happen to move.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 07, 2020 - 06:57 pm: Edit

John L. Stiff:

It is truth as far as it goes, however, if the either of the ships was moving, and the speed was such that the shuttles were death dragged, then the shuttles would not strike the target.

You have to deal with shuttle launch happens in the Impulse activity segment and impact occurs at the end of the Movement Segment of the following Impulse.

Thus if the shuttles were launched at Range Zero on Impulse #N, and if there is NO ship movement on Impulse #N+1, then the shuttles impact, but if there is ship movement, you have to determine if the ship movement would result in the shuttles being death dragged.

If the answer is yes, the shuttles are death dragged.

If the answer is no (the combined pseudo speeds were not high enough to death drag the shuttles, it does not matter which ship generated the movement or whether the ship which generated the movement was actually moving slow enough by itself not to death drag the shuttles), the shuttles are carried along by the tractor tunnel, and then impact their target.

In any case, you have nothing to apologize for, I was just trying to be thorough, not taking you to task. If you interpreted my response as such, it was not intended.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Friday, August 07, 2020 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Mister Petrick,

It was not that I felt you were wrong, so much as I failed again to move the ships correctly in the required manner. I failed to make it easy and so messed up somewhere lol. I just went back...and reran the moves adding in range tracking to the starting point. Remembering that both ships move on the same impulse unless they move more than 1 total. Then it gets delayed.

After repeating the rule required procedure, and now understanding much better because of your and Richards assistance, I have a better understanding of this exception to the normal movement rules and the way a Shuttle can be death dragged and when it would not by being trapped inside a tractor tunnel.

Speed 12 being the highest speed involved in a A C direction tug of war moves the distance of the fastest ships speed. So yes. 12 is correct. Somehow I added an extra hex when I did it last night and so confused myself. Also the 3 speed...is perfect. Most of the speed is offset in a tug of war or a shoving match. Then you subtract the speed from the other.

I also see how A A, A B, A F or any slightly offset course would lead to full movement.

I wish to thank you and Richard for taking the time to assist me in understanding this. Once I understood the exemption rule I was able to see what was happening and do it myself. So I thank both of you for the large amount of time and typing you expended to explain this to me.

Chuck Carroll

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, August 07, 2020 - 07:11 pm: Edit

Charles H. Carroll:

I do not think I am "Mister Petrick," although a perfectly correct form of address.

I use people's names in my responses so that they know my missives are directed to a specific individual, and do not mistake the recipient.

I also tend to be somewhat stiff and formal when using the written word, but have been told I come across as genial and helpful in person.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Friday, August 07, 2020 - 07:30 pm: Edit

Steve lol...I used it intentionally which as should be obvious I normally do not. In this case it was sign of respect. You went above and beyond to explain this to me. Assuming I got it right this time lol. For all I know you are sitting in your office wondering how I got to that answer.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Saturday, August 08, 2020 - 11:06 am: Edit

SPP,

Yep, what I meant. But most thorough!

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Saturday, August 08, 2020 - 06:28 pm: Edit

For two tractored ships with (pseudo) speeds A and B (with B<=A), there are three NEVs, additive (A+B) when both have the same facing or one facing (60) off, the faster (A) when two facings (120) off and subtractive (A-B) when opposing.

By Frank Lemay (Princeton) on Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 03:00 pm: Edit

SPP,
Question re delayed movement.
Imp 32, ship A pseudo speed of 5 has enemy ship in tractor with pseudo speed of 7.
Same SC and TM and MC.

Ship A moves forward with ship B declaring forward movement on imp 1 next turn.
During EA, ship B plots speed 0 all turn.
Does ship B still move forward on imp 1?

Lets say ship B plots speed 0 till imp 3, has a TAC planned for imp 2 and accelerate to speed 8 on imp 4.
Does ship B still move on imp 1 ?

Thanks.

Cheers
Frank

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 03:51 pm: Edit

The only thing listed for canceling the delayed movement is if the tractor beam was released, whether by not being powered or by being fought with negative tractor energy during energy allocation.

"If this occurs on Impulse #32, the second ship’s movement takes place on Impulse #1 of the subsequent turn (unless the link is not maintained)."

By Marcel Trahan (Devilish6996) on Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 05:13 pm: Edit

Hi Steve.

A ship originally doing speed 29 has been tractored by a ship equipped with a prospecting cannon. The tractoring ship pseudo speed is 7 and the tractored ship pseudo speed is 14.

The rule specifies the effective speed (not the pseudo speed) is to be used.

What is the speed that is used the chance to hit for the prospecting cannon? 29 or 14.
What would be the speed used for a prospecting shuttle firing at the tractored ship?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 05:33 pm: Edit

The Effective Speed is the combined pseudo speeds of the two ships, or 21. From (C2.45): "If two ships are connected by tractor beam, their effective speed is equal to the sum of their pseudo-speeds, plus terrain-induced movement."

HOWEVER, note that the direction of movement of the two ships can result in the "Net Effective Vector" Exception coming into force. For example, if ship A was moving in direction A and ship B was moving in direction C, then the Net Effective Vector is Speed 7.

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Thursday, August 20, 2020 - 05:49 am: Edit

Have a question on IPG's?

(G36.331) Defensive ionic wave mode (DIW) energy release from an
IPG is announced during the Seeking Weapons Stage (6B6) and
resolved in the Direct-Fire Weapons Fire stage (6D2) after the first
hellbore firing step. This can be done only once per impulse; aegis
does not confer the ability to release more than one wave per
impulse.

Should this not be after shuttle launch phase as well otherwise they will be useless vs SS that will hit you next impulse?

By Frank Lemay (Princeton) on Thursday, August 20, 2020 - 07:36 am: Edit

Thanks SPP.

Cheers
Frank

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, August 20, 2020 - 08:46 am: Edit

I think the intention is to not know if seeking weapons are launched on the impulse you decide if you want to use the ISG, not merely seeking shuttles.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, August 20, 2020 - 08:47 am: Edit

It also means you can avoid launching fighters and shuttles in general if an IPG will be used defensively on an impulse, which is probably intended.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, August 20, 2020 - 01:30 pm: Edit

Majead Farsi:

I am afraid the rule is correct. You are just going to have to take out that Range 1 (or Zero) shuttle that was launched with your phasers (or ion cannons), if you have none available to fire (because they fired previously, are not in arc, have not completed the 1/4 delay cycle, or were knocked out) it is an "oops" moment.

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Saturday, August 22, 2020 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Ty

By Frank Lemay (Princeton) on Monday, August 24, 2020 - 03:33 pm: Edit

Question re DEFSATS.
Once a DEFSAT fires/launches weapons, a lock on is attained that turn.

Is another lock on roll required on subsequent turns ?

Thanks.

Cheers
Frank

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Monday, August 24, 2020 - 04:19 pm: Edit

Under Defsats

You must use the detection rules for captor mines (M7.4) to gain this lock-on. Each defense satellite can control the
seeking weapons it launches; see (F3.226). Each defense satellite
has two points of ECM and two points of ECCM.

(M7.42) RETENTION: Once achieved, the lock-on can be retained by
rolling (with a maximum rating of “4”) at the start of future turns. The
speed of the ship can be no more than six or lock-on is lost
immediately. Other conditions of lock-ons (range, blocking terrain)
also apply. If the ship’s fire control is disrupted (D6.68), switched to
passive (D19.0) or to low-power (D6.7) the lock-on is lost.

So this appears to say that yes. You have to not only reroll every turn but be travelling less than speed 7 (0-6)

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Friday, August 28, 2020 - 11:07 am: Edit

Ok new question lol that has come up.

Carnivons and Death Bolts. We now have 3 versions of answers to a question about armor for them.

The question is....when it says you get 1 armor. What does it actually mean? You spend 2 points of damage per Armor. That seems easy.

But...ship armor is 1 armor means 1 damage absorption. Marcel thought since you lost two points of damage that it was a 1 for 1. So the armor was equal to 1 armor equals 2 damage proptection since you get 1 armor for 2 damage loss.

Then I had the question...are we talking about drone spaces? Since DBs are are sort of plasma but also sort of drones? Does it equal spaces of drones? A space of drone armor is much different.

So...what is the official answer? When you reduce the damage of a DB by converting damage reduced to armor is it. 2 damage for 1? Protection? 2 damage for 2 Proptection? Or 2 damage per 1/2 space or full space of drone rated protection?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, August 28, 2020 - 11:17 am: Edit

Are you talking about early years carnivons?

Also, it might help if you list the rule number that you have a question on.