Great Game, but Andro's Never Surrender!!

See the Historic Battle of 300 Andros to read how they fought until every last Robot was slain without giving up.

By Ronald J. Brimeyer (Captainron) on Thursday, September 24, 2020 - 09:43 pm: Edit

1:06 captainron (WBS B1) over Admiraldrizz (Zin)

I had the advantage after getting a R5 alpha on his #4 on turn 2. Dave made a very good fight of it for 3 turns. Then I used my HET to get a R8 shot on his 1 point #4 while giving him my down #2. I only hit with 2 Disr but my phasers rolled 1,1,1,2,2,3,5.

I tried to report but I got a server error?

By Gregg Dieckhaus (Gdieck) on Thursday, September 24, 2020 - 10:26 pm: Edit

Agree with Peter on Fed Tactics... Fed needs to wait for range 8 shot on rear of fleeing ISC and then go for mizia.
Gregg

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 09:19 am: Edit

So I was just explaining to a friend who was watching my and Brian's (AND vs FED) fight last night why the game went the way it did via email, and figure I'd share what I told him, as it might be interesting:

(Why did I DIsDev behind the Fed): Well, here is the thing. With this match up (AND vs FED), just going to R4 and swapping alpha strikes results in me dying in all likelihood. At R4, the Fed is likely to do 48+22=70 damage. That's 10 internals, which likely kills a TRH and a phasers or two. Conversely, at R4, I'm likely to do, 34+8=42 damage, which is a dozen internals on the Fed, which isn't particularly relevant, especially if he uses batteries to block some. If I can jump from R5 to R3 and swap there, it is a likely better exchange for me (I do about 20 in, be he also goes up about 5 damage), but still, not optimal, and it is difficult to get from R5 to R3 perfectly without hitting R4 first. So my plan was try and get a good turn war happening, and try hard to get either a R4 or R5 shot on a flank shield via my FH guns, or a R3 shot on a forward shield, where it would at least be an ok exchange (but still, I'm likely behind). So I ended up trying to displace behind him, HET in, but ended up completely hosed by virtue of an unlucky speed chart situation. He got R5 on my rear panels at some point, which is a dicey shot--yeah, he can just kill me if he gets lucky, but he could also just as easily only hit with one photon at R5, in which case I'm suddenly winning. So giving him the R5 shot on the rear panels is giving him the choice to gamble on 50-50 luck or not.

But then, just by randomosity of where we were on the impulse chart and our particular speeds, the next impulse, he didn't move, so I had the option of turning into R4 and swapping alphas (which was 100% the thing I was trying to avoid the whole game to that point), or give him the R5 rear shot again. Conversely, if he *did* move that impulse, he was compelled forward (he already HET), and I was going to turn in and get an advantageous R4 shot on his #5 shield while out of his FA, which was what I was angling for the whole game to that point. In that instance, I'd do, what, ~42 damage to a 24 box shield, he probably has no batteries (HET), and he'd take 18 or so internals, probably lose a photon, probably lose a few phasers, and he might not even get a good shot in return at that point. So if I had gotten there 1 impulse earlier, or 1 impulse later, I'm probably just fine (I mean, yeah, he still could have shot my rear panels at R5 as well the first time, but that 1st impulse, it was less obvious what my options were, and probably seemed riskier). Instead, due to the random luck of when I ended up there (which I possibly could have avoided by more carefully looking at the impulse chart, and counting better, and slipping away instead of slipping in, like, 3 impulses earlier or something, but that is difficult to do online a lot of the time), he took the R5 shot on my rear panels, rolled average enough, and killed me.

There is no percentage in this fight in just getting to R4 and getting shot. So you gotta try something different, and maybe it works, maybe it doesn't. With this particular version of the Andro, the 3 batteries were a huge impediment, as I couldn't HET twice on T2, as I just didn't have enough reserve power--after T1 and allocation of T2, I had a total of 7 available reserve power to use, and only 6 of it was warp. And I needed 3 reserve power to increase panels, and used .2 for eh t-bomb. So I had enough reserve power to HET once, and then was out of reserve. When the ship had 6, or even 4 batteries, HETing twice was a possibility. This version, not so much. Which also got me messed up worse (as even after the internals, if I could second HET and get a R0 overrun, with 1xTRH and 4xP2s, I'm doing 16 or so internals though a rear shield, which isn't much better than the R4 exchange, but certainly better than where I ended up).

I tried to be tricky, as it was necessary, and then got unlucky with the impulse chart when I needed to get lucky with the impulse chart. Which happens.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 10:08 am: Edit

You could allocate the first HET and do a second off batteries.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 10:18 am: Edit

Yes. That is a thing that is legal.

But there is also a limit to the total amount of power on the ship, and the total amount of warp power available.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 10:49 am: Edit

How much of the match do you think is a comment on Fed vs. Andro and how much is a comment directly on this playtest version of the Andro?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 10:56 am: Edit

Fed vs Andro in general, even when the Andro was better than this, was difficult. Having more static power (which it did at some point) and having more reserve power available (which it did at some point) gave the Andro more options and more of a chance; in this instance, the ship has 24 warp power for movement, was using 18, so had 6 reserve warp; started with 15 battery power, used some on T1, so only had 7 total reserve power available on T2. Allocating a second HET ahead of time would have meant moving 5 hexes slower for the turn. As such, no ability to HET twice this turn (which, as noted, could have saved me, or at least helped).

This version of the Andro is probably completely hosed vs the Fed; I mean, the Fed could always only hit with 1 or 2 photons at R4, and then the Andro wins. But in general, I think this Andro is hopeless vs the Fed (but, generally speaking, almost competitive in most other situations, except maybe the Orion). Which is nice for the Fed, 'cause as Brian pointed out, if the Andro is reasonably playable, and people play it, that means that the Fed has another easy game in the mix.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 11:01 am: Edit

My career as a tournament Fed player was short. I've experienced the joy of range 8, hitting with all overloaded photons and phasers - opponent resigned. And the frustration of a range 2 shot and rolling boxcars with photons. I resigned that game. This convinced me to stay with my favorite plasma race.

Of note, the Federation is KING in fleet battles. I experienced the range 30 proximity photons hitting below average, average, and great. Each time they took down one of my ship's shield and did some damage. Patience is the key. I ended up withdrawing.

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 11:14 am: Edit

Just finished my game Vs Jack.
Fed Over Kzin
Good game but think I got lucky with not firing at my #1 when he should have and that gave me movement options.
PS at range 2 with a 1-5 to hit i still rolled one 6. The Fed curse is still there!!

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 11:18 am: Edit

Devil (Fed) over MadJack (Kzinti)

My opponent (Majead) played smart and I made a minor allocation mistake and so was compelled to concede. I thought I had everything ready but did not and could not HET when I needed to.

Summarizing- Fed weaseled 3 turns in a row. I got frustrated so charged in to kind of get the game over one way or the other.

He fired at range 2, 4 overloads and 4 p1 for 69 total. He missed with 1 photon. I shot him back for 57. He had power to HET thinking he would mizia me probably with phasers. I kinda saw that coming but could not HET myself due to an allocation mistake leaving me 1 point short. Otherwise I would have been in pretty decent position.

A little sloppy by me but a good game by Devil. Good luck to Majead in the next rounds. He is a tough Fed player- if the dice Gods cooperate he should go far!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 11:18 am: Edit

It looks like Ron beat the ISC?

Or possibly that was the result of server error? When I reported my Andro/Fed game, it got a server error report. So I tried it again, and got a server error report. And then went and looked, and the first report (which got the server error) advanced the tree anyway.

It is possible that Ron reported his first game win over Zimdars, got the error, reported again, got the error, but 'cause he was the winner in the report, it advanced twice?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 11:39 am: Edit

I saw that too; thought it was pretty quick to have an R2 game over.

Droid v. SJ continuation delayed to Monday due to schedule issues. Still in EA of Turn 3.

Agree about the Fed firing at R8. Photons are pretty much the only weapon in the game that still does full damage at 8 hexes.

By Daniel Bitseff (Cadet_Stimpy) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 12:20 pm: Edit

Ron & I haven't played yet, so ya, the tree advanced incorrectly.

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 04:07 pm: Edit

Its showing me as winner and I have not played yet may have clicked the submit 2 times not sure!

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 04:14 pm: Edit

Yes Jack my intentions were to mizia you but your HET was a surprise, and would have been brilliant. After you left I had a good look at SSD and you had lost 5 batts in the exchange, so unless allocated for HET you would have not been able to do it. I missed that completely.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 05:57 pm: Edit

>>so unless allocated for HET you would have not been able to do it. I missed that completely.>>

He could have spent batteries for a HET the impulse before getting shot.

This is one of the biggest flaw rules in tournament play, to this day. I don't know what the solution is, however.

By Russ Simkins (Madcowak) on Friday, September 25, 2020 - 10:28 pm: Edit

I would give up my 2nd HET bonus and a recovered shuttle to get a copy of any Sapphire game logs...

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Saturday, September 26, 2020 - 05:57 am: Edit

I always thought for HET you need to use the Reserve warp in the batteries at instant of performing the action. So if you lose 1 batts to damage and only have 4 reserve warp power left in batts, you can't HET. If its not this way then it opens the door to, for want of a better word, unfairly playing the game! From what I have read if the transfer is done on previous impulses, there is no place for it to be recorded as to which impulse.

Peter the solution is that for certain activities like HET and speed changes using Batts etc it is done on the impulse the activity is taking place.
This can be fixed easily by a little rules adjustment!

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Saturday, September 26, 2020 - 06:03 am: Edit

My Game with Jack was nothing like that and think it was a 1 point error on his part! Other than that Jack played brilliantly and would have probably had the upper hand by the end of that turn. His HET if he could have performed it was really good play as it was totally unexpected. His use of drone speeds from SP and ship was also amazing and it opened my eyes on how to vary drone speeds to possibly bypass WW of the drones. I only managed by dumb luck when doing my plotted speed changes not because I had worked things out to that degree of accuracy. If he had staggered his drones by 1 extra impulse I would have had more problems.
Overall I found Jack a great player!!

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, September 26, 2020 - 06:17 am: Edit

The actual rules of the tournament do (and have for a long time) allow the allocation of power from the batteries in mid turn to various functions such as HETs. That is, on impulse 10, you could spend 2 power on an HET and 2 to overload a disruptor but not actually perform an HET or fire that disruptor until a later impulse of the turn.

This is sometimes done specifically in anticipation of losing power due to batteries being destroyed (in a later impulse).

I used to do this all the time in face to face tournaments.

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Saturday, September 26, 2020 - 08:46 am: Edit

I agree but where is it recorded! which is the point Peter is making. There is no way of monitoring this within the impulse sequence! on where the power actually went to and which impulse.
Guess its just the old way of totaling all power including battery power and assume all transfers were done correctly which basically means that if you blow up batteries within the turn, the player can still use the power from the batteries that were destroyed and claim it was moved to the various systems before getting destroyed.
I fully get Peter its just not black and white enough!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, September 26, 2020 - 09:12 am: Edit

Majead wrote:
>>I always thought for HET you need to use the Reserve warp in the batteries at instant of performing the action.>>

(H7.132) allows you to, at the end of an impulse (the step is in the SOP, right before the impulse ends) to spend reserve power in advance for uses in the future, i.e. at the end of impulse N, you can pay for a HET or put power into tractors for the future, 'cause you suspect you will lose your batteries on impulse N+1, but still want to HET or tractor.

I have lost tournament games in situations where I have blown my opponent's batteries off, and then they did a reserve power HET (that sometimes seemed sketchy at the time, certainly...); I have won tournament games 'cause as I was closing in on my opponent, I recorded spending my batteries to put power in to tractors, got my batteries blown off, and then won the tractor auction based on the extra power from my batteries being pre-allocated to my tractor beams. Which I fully realized at the time could look sketchy, and there wasn't really a good way to prove I did ahead of time.

>>So if you lose 1 batts to damage and only have 4 reserve warp power left in batts, you can't HET. If its not this way then it opens the door to, for want of a better word, unfairly playing the game! From what I have read if the transfer is done on previous impulses, there is no place for it to be recorded as to which impulse.>>

Yes. All of these things are true. Which is why this is a flaw. In FtF play, it is slightly less of a flaw, as, at the very least, you can see your opponent say "Huh. Gimme a sec. I wanna note something on my EA form.", and then they write something down at the end of an impulse, and then continue playing, and then next impulse their batteries explode, and then they HET the impulse after and show you the note they wrote down.

Online, however, you can't see what your opponent is doing, and can't see notes they wrote on their EA form, and it is really easy to, like, lose your batteries to damage on impulse N, and then retroactively write on your EA form "5 batteries spent for HET on impulse N-1" in case your opponent checks after the game is over. Like, I can't imagine it happens much. But it probably happens sometimes. And that it *can* happen leads to suspicion in competitive play.

>>Peter the solution is that for certain activities like HET and speed changes using Batts etc it is done on the impulse the activity is taking place.
This can be fixed easily by a little rules adjustment!>>

Sure. That would fix it. But the rules aren't going to change 'cause of it causing an issue with tournament play (see: TAC sequencing, say). The rules could be tweaked in any number of ways to prevent this (you can only use reserve power on the impulse it is used, so if you lose your batteries, it's too late; you have to announce out loud that you are using reserve power for a future use, but not necessarily what for, which I think has rules precedent in the Tactical Intelligence rules). The SFBOL interface could get a complicated tweak to "lock" reserve power use and record the impulse it happens, but I suspect that this would be very complicated and probably a hassle for the vast majority of the uses of reserve power (which are generally obvious and transparent) to help fix a problem that only comes up seldomly.

I dunno.

By Brian Evans (Romwe) on Saturday, September 26, 2020 - 09:57 am: Edit

I usually add a note to the log when I pre-allocate reserve power. It logs where in the sequence of play, and the impulse that the power was allocated. So if you decide on impulse 12 to allocate reserve power to HET, you can prove it when your batts get blown off and HET afterwards.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, September 26, 2020 - 10:21 am: Edit

Huh, yeah, that is a good plan. But I don't know that this is universal, and I didn't even know that you could actively add things to the log (I thought it was an auto feature...).