Seems separate drones debate is winning. Minimize vulnerability to t-bombs, WWs and will maximize collateral damage.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Tuesday, January 28, 2020 - 04:35 pm: Edit

A thought about the Federation launching their shuttles as drone defense...

The Federation ships are unrefitted; they have Photon Torpedoes and Phaser Ones, but do NOT have Phaser Threes or their own Drone Racks. For this reason, it may be one of the few ways the Federation can keep from having to reduce their Phaser One advantage over the Kzinti.

BUT what if the Kzinti cluster their drones around their ships?

I know, I know... Kzinti ships, their tiny frigates in particular, can be blown to smithereens by massed long-range fire, so having their drones in close may not be such a good idea.

On the other hand, some of their ships are cruisers; ships too big to be expected to get blown up quite so easily.

If the Kzinti keep their drones close to those ships, then any Federation shuttle that gets close enough to use their Phaser-3 against the drones will be in that same, close Phaser-3 range to the Kzinti Cruiser; a ship that has a snotload of Phaser threes, and likely no better opportunity for that turn to do some damage to the Federation.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, January 28, 2020 - 04:44 pm: Edit

Maybe, but the base can't move and is also a target for said phaser threes if the ship is not prevented (somehow) from getting there.

Transporter bombs might be useful in taking out Federation shuttles however.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, January 28, 2020 - 05:05 pm: Edit

One of your problems, if I recall the scenario correctly, is that the probable intent of the bombardment drones is to tie up the base's defenses so that the Kzintis can force a docking, or at least get close enough to the base to lower shields (after "lowering" a facing shield on the base) and send in the Marines. The objective of the Kzinti attack is not to destroy the base, but to capture it.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Tuesday, January 28, 2020 - 06:11 pm: Edit

The Fed shuttles do not have to leave the base, just stay close. To be threatened by KZ T-Bombs they have to get very close and survive OL photon and P4 fire. I really would not want to be the CLG at rgn 1 to 4 from 6P4. The BPs might have to swim to the base.

By Steven Hecker (Sjhecker) on Wednesday, January 29, 2020 - 06:43 pm: Edit

I took Jeff's advice and got a map, 24 drone counters out plotted. And plotted. And plotted. And plotted. And plotted. Two days of plotting and came up with 3 attack designs.

(1) Single drones. I can plot them so 1 drone hits the base for 21 straight impulses the speed 12's make starting at 2-27.

(2) Two drones. I can plot them so 2 drone hits the base for every move speed 12's make in turn 3.

(3) Three Drones. 9 of the 12 moves in turn 3 will have 3 drones hit the base.

Turn 3's 6 DB drones will hit base at the end of turn 4 (Impulse 27, 30, 32) in pairs.

Thoughts?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 29, 2020 - 08:04 pm: Edit

You can also plan to some extent what you might want to do with ship drones and scatter packs.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Thursday, January 30, 2020 - 04:49 pm: Edit

So 12 shottles and the P3 on the base will get somewhere in the neighborhood of 45 shots over 3 turns, make it 30 over 2 since turn 1 no drones will arrive. Unless you can kill the shuttles, but if you work on the shuttles then the Fed ships work on your ships. Remember the base does have rack plus a 12 round ADD, Plus you still have the special sensors to deal with. You will need to get the drones from the ships on target. And the base will still have 2 shuttles available for WW. Single drones let the ADD be most effective, on average the 12 rounds kill 8 drones. Once the base sees the pattern he can adjust where to place his shuttles. The more you space out the drones the more shields he can use to take any that might get through.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, January 30, 2020 - 05:39 pm: Edit

Does the base have an ADD during the year of the scenario?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, January 30, 2020 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Richard Eitzen:

Y138 precedes the existence of anti-drones and type-G drone racks deployment by the Federation (Y160). Federation Monitors and Light Monitors used type-E drone racks in the anti-drone role in this period.

By Steven Hecker (Sjhecker) on Friday, January 31, 2020 - 10:57 am: Edit

I figure only 10 shuttles, unless they want ships without a WW. No ADD. Still, the 1-drone-a-hex DB means the base only has to deal with 12 drones a turn, which won't be a problem for it.

On the other hand, having too many in range 8 of the base at one time, is begging for a WW.

Having too many in a single hex results in a t-bomb.

Doesn't seem to be an ideal solution.

Having plotted it out, really wish I had 3 waves of 18. Simply wear out their WW and t-bombs and move in turn 5.

I am so used to speed 20 drones, going to be different watching my drone attack slowly move into place. Have to be patience.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Friday, January 31, 2020 - 01:04 pm: Edit

As a Kzinti fan, the mere thought of speed 8 drones makes me cry! Thinking about using them against a base, where the anchor is a death sentence from Phaser 4s, makes me curl into the fetal position. :D

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, January 31, 2020 - 02:39 pm: Edit

These drones are speed 12.

By Eddie E Crutchfield (Librarian101) on Friday, January 31, 2020 - 03:59 pm: Edit

4 on the old Ca 2 on the Cl And DDMs one each on Pol ships, hold 2 WW on base, the ships are on their own. Steve does the base get the e-rack like the monitors

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, January 31, 2020 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Eddie Crutchfield:

If it did, I would have said it did, but

EARLY BASE WEAPONS (R1.R2): Prior to Y160 Federation bases did not have drone racks or anti-drone racks.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, February 01, 2020 - 08:14 am: Edit

Note that you CAN play tractor games with the incoming drones.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, February 14, 2020 - 09:04 pm: Edit

So. did you play out the scenario? If so, what tactics were used and how did it go?

By Steven Hecker (Sjhecker) on Wednesday, February 19, 2020 - 04:31 pm: Edit

We played on Sat, Feb 8th.

Short answer: Game was called with 4 impulses left on turn 1. Feds had moved up and away from the drones after firing photons, which left no ships between the Kzinti fleet and the base, allowing a turn 2 overrun.

Conclusion: Too much stuff for our group of 4. 51 ship drones, 18 DB Drones, 18 ships, shuttles everywhere. We should have waited till we had more players as mistakes were made on both sides. The Fed CL managed to get a range four shot on the Kzinti CS simply because I lost track of the FED CL among all the counters!!

We are going to keep it and try again when we have at least 6 players, 8 would be best but its rare everyone shows up.

Also need more time or a place we can leave the game set up as writing all those ships and drones for another session isn't a viable option.

Tactics: Feds ships went a mixture of slow (DDMs), Mid CLs), Fast (FF, POL). Did Launch Shuttles (about 8 or 10). Did not transfer BPs to base. DDM, FF, Pol Hulls all had prox, others had overloads.

Overall plan... I have no idea. I thought the small hulls were getting TBs out in front of the base, but no. Shuttles flew at our ships instead of DB drone hunting. The Proxs were a surprise, but...

Kzinti spread ships out and went slow (9-10) to get the drones in front of us so a ship's explosion wouldn't take drones/ships out. We targeted all the ship drones on fed ships, not the base.

Damage: Really light. The CS had about 20 internals. A fed FF had 20+10 internals.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Monday, April 13, 2020 - 07:51 pm: Edit

Thid isn't a tactic but the Kzinti thread felt like a good place for it.

I was just watching Star Trek Beyond and they mentioned the Kzinti wars. I thought the name drop in Picard was the only Canon mention since they arrived.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Tuesday, April 14, 2020 - 12:31 am: Edit

IIRC (and I think we all KNOW how often I misremember things ), Larry Niven wrote an episode for the Animated Series called "Slaver Weapon." The villains in it were his Kzinti.

By Randy Green (Hollywood750) on Tuesday, April 14, 2020 - 07:30 pm: Edit

Jeff, you are correct.. although villains are always in the eye of the beholder.

Which is why a beholder is so angry all the time..

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Tuesday, April 14, 2020 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Just realized, it probably wasn't 'Kzinti', but 'Zindi' from the 'Enterprise' series …

By Daniel Eastland (Democratus) on Wednesday, April 15, 2020 - 08:08 am: Edit

Rumor was that they were going to have the Kzinti feature in the next season of Enterprise, but the show ended.

There were even graphics assets for the Kzinti ships that were to be used in the shows. The ones I saw looked very evocative of SFB Kzinti.

Rumor, though. So big grain of salt.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, October 17, 2020 - 02:25 pm: Edit

I want some input. Kzinti CV/CVS 2 escorts. One size class 4 other size class 3 or 4. Year of service Y166-Y171 then Y170 thru Y175. 12 AAS fighters then HASS last TAAS. Cost ends up around 400 BPV to 550 BPV. Med speed drones. No special drones but BPV reflects possible buy packages.

So only 4 Disr but 8 t0 10 Drone racks depends on escorts. 20 some phaser 1. Then 12 ftr 2 drones each plus rail upgrades.

IS this better then just buying a CC, 2xBC? Pros cons of buying the CV/CVS over a regular battle group?

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Saturday, October 17, 2020 - 04:14 pm: Edit

Carrier groups are BPV intensive, so I suspect a CC + 2xBC would probably be a LOT less expensive. What that cost gives you is throw weight of drones.

Think of it this way. Your CC + 2xBC, if I remember things correctly, will have six Type-B drone racks and six Type-C drone racks for a drone launch rate of eighteen drones per turn.

By contrast, a CVS with a full squadron of HAAS, a CLE, and an FFE may only have two Type-B drone racks, but the full squadron of fighters and the matching number of Type-C drone racks will give them a launch rate of twenty six drones per turn.

(Again, this is if my memory isn't malfuncfuncfunctioning...)

The cost for this heavier drone throw weight is sustaining the drone throw. Each HAAS has only two drones, so after two turns, not only would both groups likely have all their Type-C drone racks empty, but the fighters are also in need of landing to reload, so at this point, the CC + 2xBC would still have three times the drone throw weight, courtesy of their Type-B drone racks.

There's also the matter of non-drone firepower. Kzinti carrier escorts don't have disruptors.

I can't say if one is better than the other; it all boils down to how you're planning on fighting the groups.