I don't know all of the ships that ever existed for the FED. I remember the NCL but don't think it is better then the CC in any way, especially if the CC has a drone rack.

Does the FED have another 2/3rds mover that might be viable in tourney play?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, October 18, 2020 - 01:54 pm: Edit

"That the Fed exists in the 4 photon form makes it risky to play the generally very strong Archeo Tholian and Orion (and Andro if the Andro gets okayed in the current playtest version)."

This is a really important point that shouldn't be overlooked. The 4 photon crunchy Fed is a major restriction on some ships that would otherwise be problematic (and I think the Orion is at the head of the line, but I haven't flown in or against the AT much).

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Sunday, October 18, 2020 - 04:16 pm: Edit

As I said before the problem is within the Photon to hit range and personally think its the 5-8 range! at 1-3 its just too low and needs to be 1-4. True its a powerful weapon but it is 2 turn arming weapon.
I also agree that the Fed CF should not be used(though I do like it!) as its not a CC class ship.
Giving the Fed TCC G rack or not makes no difference as its the photons that are key!
How many time has the Fed TCC won a match not a tournament when it has missed with 3 out of 4 photons or even 2 out of 4? It will interesting to know how it has done?

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Sunday, October 18, 2020 - 06:05 pm: Edit

1) I don't feel like you can create a ship that will be 50/50 against all opponents.
2) The Fed is the Fed. That is the Photons are an all or nothing prospect. But if you with 4 Fully OL Photons at Range 8. Most opponents will have a hard time to come back from that.

Note: If you read the GH story by Bill Schoeller who got the Gold Hat in the Fed said that the goal was always to get to range 2. That is when the Fed has the best chance to hit with the photons.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, October 18, 2020 - 06:22 pm: Edit

I think the 50-50 to hit with the photons at R8 is one of the things that makes it workable. Hitting 2/4 at R8 is often enough to make a game of it. And some times you hit 3/4 at R8, putting your opponent in a significant hole. And that every once and a while you hit with 4/4 at R8 makes folks need to be wary of even R8.

Yeah, once and a while, you hit 1/4 or worse at R8. But generally speaking you are gonna hit 2/4 at R8, and if it is on a rear shield, that's gonna hurt. And even on a forward shield, 2/4 and phasers is significant if you have space to run on the reload turns, even if you end up cornered at the end of it.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Sunday, October 18, 2020 - 08:46 pm: Edit

Paul Franz, Peter Bakija, I agree.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, October 18, 2020 - 10:29 pm: Edit

The photon is what the photon is; we are certainly not changing a chart written in 1979. A tournament battle is not won or lost by a single volley. Over the course of the battle you will fire two, or three, or four such volleys.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, October 18, 2020 - 11:20 pm: Edit

Paul Franz, Peter Bakija, I agree.

By Russ Simkins (Madcowak) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 01:21 am: Edit

Photon is a big tree in front of an RPS forest. Remember when you first started play SFB and it seemed like there were limitless options of things you could do to surprise your opponent? That to me is what is missing. It's nigh impossible to truly surprise an experienced player as we've grown to anticipate a limited number of viable options of things that can be done, by you and to you. It has become advanced tic-tac-toe with a dice randomizer.
Perhaps adding a wide selection "hail mary" options to keep both sides guessing/sweating what their opponent might have up their sleeves. I can think of one right away which is to remove the emergency requirement from the probe as a weapon. Expensive and hard to set up the shot but if you gambled on it, you have the advantage on knowing you need to get in line with that narrow firing arc. Never understood how that is only an option after you've had your gut ripped out? The risk and expense of the gamble should be what limits its use not the "because I said so". Alone this wouldn't be near enough to fix the issue but just one example in a required multitude. Having a large enough number of hail-mary possibilities would keep the game tense and in doubt and hopefully exceed most of our capacity to constantly consider each reinstating surprise as a component of the game. RPS concerns would be lessened. And an opportunity to get some use out of otherwise neglected systems like probes, scanner, sensors, control boxes, etc.
I'm reluctant to hope that any changes to status quo would be considered but if you don't offer up even a wild, hair-brained solution you're just complaining right?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 09:20 am: Edit

Russ wrote:
>>Remember when you first started play SFB and it seemed like there were limitless options of things you could do to surprise your opponent?>>

There are still limitless options to surprise your opponent. Most games I play are won or lost by virtue of someone doing something unexpected/surprising.

I can't remember a game where someone said "Huh. I did not expect that to happen..." and were the winners of the game.

Surprise. It is how you win.

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 09:50 am: Edit

What happened in Andy and Brian game? Just wondering what happened?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 10:39 am: Edit

I think it hasn't happened yet. There is a note from Droid on the 15th that they haven't yet played, and there might have been an accidental report advancement.

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 11:35 am: Edit

Ah thx Peter!

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 01:14 pm: Edit

Andy and Brian will be playing next week.

By Ken Rodeghero (Ken_Rodeghero) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 03:42 pm: Edit

I like the G-rack addition to the Fed. I also agree that changing the photon is a no-go and I don't have any interest in seeing fast cruiser tournament ships.

How about also adding a couple points of power to the Federation TCC (from 38 to 40 with 2 more AWR) to allow it to move a bit better when reloading/overloading photons?

Since photons are power hungry, 40 power would seem reasonable to test out. This also avoids diverging too much from the weapon loadout of the historical command cruiser design.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Aside from the Fast Cruiser ( We have 2 Wynns, 3 Romulans, really not sure what the opposition to a
Fed fast cruiser is, but I digress)... 40 power is, to me, the most reasonable buff for the Fed.

By Timothy Linden (Timlinden) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 04:05 pm: Edit

A simple and minor fix to aid the Fed CC (if desired) would be to allow it to actually start with full overloads like it should be able to given the WS tournament ships start at.

That would then just be removing a tournament rule restriction, not doing something wacky.

Tim.

By Majead Farsi (Devil) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 04:29 pm: Edit

After some careful thought, I think the best thing to do is play test the Fed TCC vs all the other ships a few times and see how it does. Should play each ship at least 3 times using different tactics each time. That should point towards any flaws if any!

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 04:35 pm: Edit

The "as-is" Fed TCC has more than adequate playtest data from Robert Schirmer's data analysis. It is an underperformer.

The G-rack might change that. So, if that's what you mean, then absolutely we need to playtest the G-rack TCC and see whether it gets the bump it needs.

I'm also in favor of giving the TCC full overloads, or giving it 2 more AWR. The G-rack is an alternative, probably not a supplement. However, we should do small steps.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 05:22 pm: Edit

I scanned the Netkill data for the Fed. If I am reading it correctly, it won 47% of the time when players were equal (527 games!). It ranks 10th out of 18 ships. 9th is the Andromedan - no way the Andro is better now then the Fed is, so really it ranks 9th in the dead center of the playing field.

We are working on adding the G-rack which probably will help the ship win a few games against better ships. I agree we should really think about giving it more photon energy to start. I think that will also help a bunch and will probably help it win a few more games against better ships.

Isn't all we really need is to help the Fed win a few more games? Honestly, it is not that bad. This last Sapphire shows that a little bit. We have a Fed in the final and had 2 in the semi.

It needs only a little help.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 05:38 pm: Edit

If the G-rack fixes it (we need a lot more data there) then we don't have to spend more time on the Fed and can spend the effort elsewhere. Personally I consider 47% to be within the margin of error of the data.

Try to remember that all 18 ships cannot be in the top 9.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 07:07 pm: Edit

True that there's a Fed in the final, but we did start with four, and they fought 2 Andros and an Orion to get there. And there are no Romulans.

I'd add 2 power before changing the initial overload energy, as the Fed doesn't have a problem overloading for the first pass anyway; it's the second one that's the problem. Anyway, until the G-rack has been evaluated a whole lot more, it's all moot.

On the subject of the G-rack...as the Fed's biggest problem is the Romulans, saddling it with ADD rounds seems a bit silly.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, October 19, 2020 - 07:31 pm: Edit

Jim Davis:

It is NOT "saddled with ADD rounds" against the Romulans. While Type-VI drones are only marginal (at best) the Federation has the option of changing the four ADD rounds to Type-VIM drones. So against a Romulan (or a Gorn, or the ISC) he has two type-IM and four type-VIM drones and no ADDs. NOTE: If the Federation Captain thinks the ADDs would be more effective in his plan for the battle, perhaps to knock down an expected suicide shuttle but type-VIs are pretty good at that, he has the option of keeping them.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Tuesday, October 20, 2020 - 12:13 am: Edit

I see that there is a plan to delete some of the history of the Sapphire tourneys. Can we get something set up where we can record both finalists and the ship they flew in these tournaments forever?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, October 20, 2020 - 08:55 am: Edit

I think the tree is separate from the topic.