I didn't launch the scatter pack until i23-24 of t3, expecting it to bloom at EOT. The drones are still in the air at end t4, surprisingly, but they are too close to the ISC and too far from me to be useful for much on 5. I spent most of t4 slipping them as "badly" as I could to try to keep them out of p3 range at EOT.

EPT + Pseudo G is nice because it makes the plan of charging a lot more risky; as long as you can fire on the shield the pseudo hits it looks pretty dangerous to crash. My speed plot made this kind of irrelevant t1 because I had the speed to just turn off and run.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Friday, October 23, 2020 - 09:21 am: Edit

Ok, that is good to know when the SP was launched. So ignore my comments about shooting the drones when there was no SP.

Uh, I see a possible mistake. Seeking weapons must close. "Slipping badly" when they otherwise could close would be wrong.

You must hate playing against the Gorn or Romulan. Their EPT + Pseudo S is more intimidating!

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, October 23, 2020 - 12:09 pm: Edit

By "slipping badly" I meant arranging for the drones to be as much "behind" the ISC as possible so they would "follow" it rather than cutting off a triangle and gaining extra hexes. I know the seeking weapon movement rules well from flying the RKR and Gorn.

I haven't flown the Klingon a lot against plasma ships, but the strategy has to be pretty different. Unlike the ISC, where the PPD puts the Klingon on a clock, if the plasma ship chooses to EPT ballet, the Klingon can run out plasma much more happily.

By Lee Hanna (Lee) on Saturday, October 24, 2020 - 12:52 am: Edit

I'm here, just not right away.

Re: overloaded PPD, yeah, that's something really difficult to pull off. In the first fight, I shouldn't have loaded that, I hit minimum range after the third pulse.

Second battle:
I don't have my notes in front of me tonight, I thought I fired my t1 phasers in the 6-8 bracket, and still rolled awful. It was at a shield the PPD was working over. His getting into overload range (again) was bad timing/maneuvering on my part, something I still need to work on.

Of my plasma salvos, Graham did a really good job of running out one of them, else I should have had some internals somewhere. T1's salvo was an EPT+PPT.

The t4 damage on me included 2 p3s and 2 impulse, so it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

At the beginning of t4, I thought hard about hitting him with everything from low speed, but then I remembered that was how I lost the last fight with Graham (and innumerable other duels in the past), so I took off running.

So far, this game has confirmed my belief that the dice spirits are a real thing: if my dice rolls are crap, then my tactics are good, if my dice are hot, then I'm in a bad position and about to lose. ;-)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, October 24, 2020 - 08:20 am: Edit

This is fun seeing both sides of the fight as it goes. Keep up the reportage!

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Saturday, October 24, 2020 - 11:20 am: Edit

OK, I admit that "slipping badly" had a different meaning for me. It is good to know that the Klingon drones moved legally!

Hi Lee, it is good to hear from you. Plasma do not roll dice. That is why I generally fly plasma ships. I rarely bolt because of the dice.

The Klingon's goal, in my opinion, is to close and overrun once the ISC's plasma G's have been launched and out of gas. The ISC's goal, in my opinion, is to run far away during the second turn of plasma G arming.

Have you noticed that the PPD is almost the equivalent of 4 standard disruptors? It keeps the battle roughly even.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, October 26, 2020 - 02:42 pm: Edit

An aside:

Flying the Archeo-Tholian tournament cruiser is like "picking up pennies in front of a steamroller."

Its power situation is ... not great ... and its weapons are not ... great ... and its internal structure is flimsy but it can fire unreturned phasers every turn if you time it perfectly.

-perfectly-

[I mean, yeah, the phasers are fantastic but the disruptors are kind of useless : no UIM and no power make ATC something something "Not Load Disruptors! Don't mind if I do!"]

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Monday, October 26, 2020 - 03:46 pm: Edit

Archeo-Tholian 4x PH-1s, 4x PH-3s and 1x Disruptor can fire L or R, turn mode B, has Web Caster and 2x snare, 2/3 cost movement. (Most disruptor armed ships have standard disruptors the Klingon have UIM on demand, the Lyrans have a one shot UIM). The Archeo-Tholian in the right hands is a nightmare.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Monday, October 26, 2020 - 03:48 pm: Edit

Archeo Tholian is one of the most dominant ships in the tourney. It is a high skill ship though. Takes some practice

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, October 26, 2020 - 05:51 pm: Edit

Yeah, this is all based on my first flight in the thing. But good gosh darn. What a difficult ride. The goal is apparently to arrange situations that would definitely be fatal, except there is web in between your ships, so it is not fatal.

I haven't seen very many ATCs in Sapphire, although I know it's a respected ship.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, October 27, 2020 - 08:10 am: Edit

ATC is very strong, but very difficult to fly; it is always victorious or killed by virtue of one hex or one impulse somewhere (i.e. the web was 1 hex in the wrong direction, so it got killed). As such, it is hard to do well with. Very good players in the ATC tend to demolish everyone. Slightly less good players in the ATC tend to do ok and then get killed by one hex.

It also is disadvantaged against ships that can just run into the web and kill it at close range (Fed, Shark, Lyran?)

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Tuesday, October 27, 2020 - 09:11 am: Edit

Let us not forget the slightly better shields. So, "sword or shield"? I.E. what is the best use of the free standing web?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, October 27, 2020 - 10:14 am: Edit

I can't imagine that anyone is forgetting the slightly better shields. It is one of the reasons that the ATC is so good; the "I can fire 4xP1 and an OL disruptor in basically any direction, and you are firing back at a stronger than usual flank shield, so ha!" is a huge advantage for the ship.

Clearly the best use of the free standing web is a wacky W web that lets the Tholian fire through it, at someone on the other side, and then when they crash it to shoot back, the Tholian can get behind a web hex and be immune to return fire. Which is hard to set up, but when it works, it is incredibly terrible for the opponent.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, October 27, 2020 - 11:30 am: Edit

Peter:

That was my experience. Turn 1, unreturned R5 phaser shot, keep flying, turn off, i32 my opponent (my son) HET into range 8 -just- off the side of the web, and Hydran fires 5P1 and 2 OLHB going through #4 and doing internals, with fusions to follow on i1 (including from the surviving fighter).

Amounted to 25-30 unreturned internals in two volleys, after which I can't really run away because phasers are back on i7.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Tuesday, October 27, 2020 - 03:16 pm: Edit

"Wacky W" eh.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, October 27, 2020 - 04:56 pm: Edit

Yeah, the Tholian lives or dies by 1 hex all the time (i.e. 90% of the game against a ATC I have played that ended with a dead Tholian ended with "Man. If my web was 1 hex further in that direction, I was fine..." or something). The Neo Tholian is way less good, but also way less dependent on web placement (although it helps). It can just shoot you sometimes.

The W web is, ya know, make a legal W shape, get adjacent to the web in a spot where you can shoot phasers at your opponent, they can't shoot you back, when they crash into the web to try and get you, slip away and end up behind one of the web kinks, blocking line of site. It's preposterous, but very effective when you can pull it off.

As such, history suggests that it is generally best to avoid closing on the Tholian's web once it is solid if you can avoid it.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, October 27, 2020 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Heh, I didn't have a 'W' (I knew the "W" was a thing from reading game descriptions but I didn't know - why - so I didn't bother and thank you for clearing that up), I just had a line of web placed diagonally to our approach so that whichever side the Hydran took, I could go the other way.

I made it breakdown strength, so maybe that changes things?

Yeah, one hex closer, or even turn off a hex sooner, and the Hydran loses overloads on the turn break and everything is peachy.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, October 27, 2020 - 07:17 pm: Edit

The W web is a thing that takes a lot of practice and is difficult to set up correctly. But it is the thing that makes the ATC potentially both devastating and completely demoralizing. Optimal situation, you make your opponent turn into the web in a spot where they end up with another hex of web in front of them. Or they go one direction, and you go the other, and then there is a web kink in the way of fire. It's a giant hassle.

Breakdown strength web is often a great move, but it limits you to max 4 hexes of web (4 hexes of strength 12 web from a 5 power WC), which often works against you.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Tuesday, October 27, 2020 - 08:41 pm: Edit

That is hard to do. Ships with a great turn mode can counter this tactic (Klingon for example). Plasma ships (a poor turn mode) hate the free standing web. I actually bolted (Gorn)- not too successfully.

The Lowly snare can block fire. Ugh, a frustrating ship to fly against.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, October 28, 2020 - 07:36 am: Edit

It is indeed hard to pull off (the W web). But still, the folks who were historically the most successful with the ATC were the ones who were best at the "playing spider" shenanigans (i.e. judicious use of the W web, and judicious use of the "sticky on/sticky off" aspect of the ATC and using their ability to turn web pass on and off to get stuck in their own web for a few impulses to stay behind it, again using the W shaped web to block fire even though they were stuck in the web).

As the Gorn, I have generally done just fine vs the Neo Tholian (see: the most recent Captain's log), but it does require regular bolting and not missing a lot. I beat Paul Scott's ATC in the Gorn to win the championships one year, but I did get lucky (hit 2/2 on my first R5 through a cast web bolt shot; he missed 2/3 OL disruptors at R1 on the last change of the game), and he never set up a W web to get unanswered fire on me (although I also generally refused to engage when he had a solid web on the map). So it is certainly possible, but I think the Gorn is general disadvantaged against the ATC.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Wednesday, October 28, 2020 - 11:50 am: Edit

Maybe Peter (or the peanut gallery) can answer another question for me. Why is the Neo Tholian (which is ostensibly the "big" Tholian) down on weapons compared to the ATC? It has less P1s and is down a snare to boot, as well as having to pay 1 point a hex.

[Changing topics a lot here.]

I flew the ATC last weekend on a lark; my son and I come to the map first thing every weekend morning, and my Klingon was frustrating him so I decided to try something new. I don't know that I'm going to make a habit of it.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, October 28, 2020 - 02:23 pm: Edit

Just worked out that way.

The Neo Tholian was the original Tholian TC from the mid 80's; it was essentially the same as it is now, but with 2 less power (it got 2 impulse engines grafted in at some point in recent history, and by "recent", I mean "the last 20 years").

The ATC was a "late" era addition to the TC set, showing up at the same time as the WYN Black Shark, Romulan TKE and TKR, LDR, and probably the Seltorian. When initially shared with the world (in some mid 90's Captain's Log), it had a 4-6 break down and only 20 warp power. And also 30 box shields in all directions.

This was rapidly changed to 5-6 breakdown and 24 box engines. But it always had the same guns (WC, 4xDisr, 8xP1, 4xP3, 2 snare). The shields were modded down to 30-30-27-27 at some point as well.

The ATC is far and a way just plain better than the Neo, even after the 2 power upgrade; the 2/3 move cost, the walley eyed disruptors, the phaser arcs, and the double snares means the ATC is way better at being a Tholian then the Neo is. The Neo is better at just flying up to something and shooting it with overloaded disruptors and a web fist, but if that is your plan, you might as well be a Shark or something.

The Neo is fun, and I fly it once and a while 'cause I have a soft spot in my heart for the original, 1980's era Neo Tholian Heavy Cruiser that I used all the time when I was a high school kid, but it is difficult to do well with, especially given that there are numerous match ups where all it's opponent needs to do is "move moderate speeds, arm guns, and go forward" and the Neo will be squashed.

The ATC is a very competitive ship, arguably in the top 3 of the tournament, but again, it requires a very specific set of skills (and temperament) to do super well in, and I don't have either of those.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, October 29, 2020 - 12:28 am: Edit

Back on topic.

The continuation of our Klingon-ISC battle was fought tonight, with the Klingon finally victorious in an absolutely brutal contest.

So Turn 5 I refilled almost all my phasers, armed 3 standards assuming I lose one to damage on the way in, and plot 17 hexes 13/14/26. He starts at 4 to weasel, but has a change to 8 plotted. At end of turn I am just coming up on R8, and i32 he HETs around to get his EPT in arc (showing me weaker shields, so I step in to R8 and give him 2 OLs, a standard, and phasers for a bunch of internals.

[We then realize he only had 4 batteries available. But after much figuring, we decide it is easier to just assume his engineer pulled off a miracle than to try to back up.]

On T6 I plot 4/14, holding my weasel started Turn 4 and starting two more weasels (my last two shuttles - the SP is 15 hexes behind me now). I arm 3 standards and the #4 disruptor as an OL (to fire in the hole on i1).

I fire in the hole on i1 and weasel. He starts the PPD and fires phasers, not getting much phaser damage through the shift but JUST hitting with the PPD (needed 9, rolled 7). The PPD is overloaded, and since I am at speed 4 I can't do anything about it so I take five pulses and something like 20 internals in about 8 volleys, since all my front shielding is gone. I lose a bunch of weapons and power. I launch 2 fast Type IV's so they are in the air before I lose drone racks. These are tractored just before EOT. He launches a fast F, which I run out a few hexes to get it to drop and take on my #4 for shield damage before turning around.

[Meanwhile, I hit hull and control spaces. More on that later.]

I circle around and get back to R1 on i32, again firing a (much reduced) alpha and doing internals through his fresh #6. I am still ahead on internals, but the ISC still has almost all its phasers (5 p1 left!).

He now has one fresh shield (#5) and about 10 total boxes elsewhere. I have a little bit of 3, most of 4 and 5, and no front shielding at all.

We start Turn 7 at speed 0, range 1, my down #1 (ship facing F) to his down #6 (ship facing D). I drop the weasel, plot tacs, arm weapons and throw the remaining energy into an 11 point tractor beam to make sure he doesn't get away. On i1, He tries to H&R both remaining disruptors and a shuttle, getting the shuttle but not the weapons. I tractor him (no fight since he held trac on the Type IVs.) I launch a drone and a shuttle (manned, but he doesn't know that). He alphas with 4 phasers at my ship, one P1 at the shuttle and a p3 at the drone, rolling poorly and failing to kill either.

On i2, he TACs his full #5 to me, but the drone (launched facing E) moves out to his down shield and HETs in for 12 in. I hit more power and another torpedo the third, a G torp), but no phasers.

On i8 I "alpha" him with my one remaining disruptor and 3 remaining p1s, rolling 3,4,6 on phasers and doing 23 damage to his... 24 point #5 shield. Whee. On i8 I TAC my right side P2s into arc and do another 11 in, still hitting no tractors but now starting to hit weapons (presumably because there was nothing else on his ship to hit?)

On i9 my crippled shuttle is eligible to fire and shoots a p3 in the hole, hitting no tractors but...

...hitting his one remaining control space.

Now, I did not know this, but I looked it up. Under G2.24, a decontrolled ship loses all active tractor links. So his tractors drop and two Type IV-F drones fly in the down #4 for 48 more in, blowing up the ISC. Internal 48 was the last excess damage box, and every box on the actual ship was burned.

This was a FANTASTIC game. I was very confident for a while but going into Turn 7 I was convinced I had blown it after the multiple small PPD volleys had stripped off so many weapons.

Thank you to Lee for being a great opponent and putting up with a few brain farts (neither of us could remember to set the facing of seeking weapons in impulse activity so we (especially me) had to keep fixing them on the map.)

We had something like 10 or 15 total shield boxes between us at the end.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, October 29, 2020 - 12:42 am: Edit

I exaggerated. We had 47 shield boxes left but only 11 in front (all on his #1).

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, October 29, 2020 - 02:23 am: Edit

Thoughts:

ISC-Klingon isn't an easy fight for either side, but I certainly didn't feel like I was in bad shape playing the Klingon. The drones matter, and the Klingon's biggest problem in the matchup is the one you expect in a disruptor ship: you can't power all the systems you want at the same time.

The nice thing about the Klingon is that you have a much broader choice of tactics than almost any other ship in the tournament. You can play for R15 and turn off. You can play for R8 (you can do internals from R8!) But unlike some ships, which have very distinct range cutoffs, nothing is making you fire, or turn off, at any range in the Klingon.

This fight in particular made me realize how important it is not to fire disruptors early in the turn. Of course, you mostly don't want to fire anything early in the turn, but since like 90% of your discretionary energy after normal movement and housekeeping is either in OLs, or isn't, firing disruptors gives away a lot of information.

If I had it to do again (against someone who wasn't reading this) the next strategy to investigate is crashing everything on t1 and t2 with overloads, and not giving the ISC time to reload things. Going 7 turns seems like advantage: ISC.