My problem with X2 and Xorks is that they are MASSIVE design exercises. And X2, depending on how it works, should make the existing stuff so much stuff for the recycler.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 06:48 am: Edit

X2, like X1, is just a side trip, not a replacement for all previous products.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Will X2 include just X2 ships for the "standard" Alpha powers? Or will it also include some Xork ships (at whatever tech level is appropriate)?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, November 19, 2018 - 03:45 pm: Edit

No data is available. We could just put the Xorks into X2, or we could do the Xorks in their own module covering multiple time periods. (They did do some raiding as far back as Y100 and before. It was just rare enough they were treated as very rare monsters.) So theoretically the Xorks could have MY, GW, X1, and X2 ships.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, November 20, 2018 - 01:10 am: Edit

This is the topic to discuss X2, but in general ...

I will unlock it when I am ready. That will not be this year. I will move a lot of stuff from other places here for the time being. Moving a post or a folder here does NOT promise it will be included in X2.

LOTS of people suggested LOTS of things for X2. (You can go suggest things THERE if you want.) X2 is "all things to all people." Everyone thinks they know EXACTLY what it MUST and can ONLY be and everyone rejects all other ideas but their own.

After spending weeks reading every one of them, I decided how to proceed and said what I was going to do. Some accepted the concept, some rejected my decision. The argument grew so acrimonious (more that ever before on any other subject by a factor of fifty) that I just walked away in disgust. When I get healthy again I will go back to the topic, review anything new (and if I don't see anything I haven't rejected before) then I will repeat my decision, and see the results. If I get the same acrimony, I will formally and forever cancel the project and move on. If you reject my idea, fine, but I cannot make one project contain twenty different and mutually exclusive ideas.

By Jon Murdock (Xenocide) on Tuesday, November 20, 2018 - 12:37 pm: Edit

Has anything substantial been defined for the Xorks yet? Conventional empire or different tech? Motivation? Weaponry? Shields or something different?

[It has all been defined. It will be revealed in the fullness of time.--SVC]

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Tuesday, November 20, 2018 - 12:53 pm: Edit

Apparently they hate outsiders.

[They hate everyone including their slaves, each other, and themselves.--SVC]

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Tuesday, November 20, 2018 - 03:47 pm: Edit

For what its worth (probably nothing) I would like to see a playtest module for the Xorkaelians similar to the Nicozian one. A small package with just the general war era CA, CL, DD, and FF and the rules for that time period. Save the x-tech Xorks for Module X2 (or X2R). Does three things:

1. Generates interest (been a long time since last SFB module).
2. Generate some playtest.
3. Most importantly, generate some revenue for ADB. I think the Nicozian module sold a good number of copies and for the size was good value.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, November 20, 2018 - 06:02 pm: Edit

Given better health, a Xork playtest module is not out of the question. (without counters which are too expensive for short runs)

Given better health, I don't see any obstacle to doing some kind of module (without counters which are too expensive for short runs) with the rest of the new classes we started and moved on with.

Norman, I don't know you and have never worked with you, but most projects like that end up taking more of my time than my doing it by myself. I am not going to go into specifics about which outside designers did good or bad jobs. I will say there is no way I would turn over the "most wanted SFB module" to someone I have never worked with.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 01:32 am: Edit

In Jan 2019 I had the weight loss surgery, which worked, and am now in much better health. (I lost 170 pounds. I now exercise about 15 hours a week and walk about 3 miles a day. I have a personal trainer named Mark who has dialed up my workout several times.)

I will remark that the controversy came down to which of three paths to follow:

OPTION ONE: Take a non-X or X1-ship, add more boxes without increasing the movement cost, give it some more die roll and timing bonuses, and on you go. I rejected this concept as just plain boring and likely to produce SSDs which were too small to read.

OPTION TWO: The so-called 50/200 plan. Basically, take any SSD, making some minor tweeks, write "Second generation x Tech" across the top. When non-X shot at it, you did only half as much damage. When X2 shot at X0 and maybe X1 it did twice as much damage. This is the one I plan to go with.

OPTION THREE: Something really clever that nobody has thought of yet but which instantly catches fire with 100% of players who love Option Three tea-totally to death.

By Ken Rodeghero (Ken_Rodeghero) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 07:54 am: Edit

“By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, November 13, 2020 - 02:08 pm: Edit

This really isn't the topic to discuss the 50/200 paradigm (so I won't) but the reasons for it are in the X2 topic if anyone wants to know. (Short form: anything else is just a bigger SSD with more boxes on the original movement cost. If you want an X2 ship that is not 50/200 then just take any SSD and double every box.) I would respectfully suggest any further discussion of 50/200 go to the X2 topic.”

This post coupled with Option Two listed just above get to the heart of my question.

Basically, would an X2 ship fighting another X2 ships be identical to a same-tech matchup in X1 or GW-era? Would differences only show up when you cross tech boundaries?

I would like X2 vs. X2 to be different and show the evolution of technology. However, I recognize that cross-tech fights need to be accounted for and poster-sized SSDs or 2-point fonts are not options.

This likely cannot be answered now and need not be since neither design nor playtest have happened. I am interested in what you come up with to solve the above design problem and will buy it regardless.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 11:42 am: Edit

I can see the gripe that X2-v-X2 won’t be revolutionarily different from GW-v-GW, but should it be? Was X1-v-X1 more than evolutionarily different? Is Indefatigable-v-Derflinger revolutionarily different from Iowa-v-Yamato or Evolutionarily diffferent? Is MY-v-MY? Is EY-v-EY revolutionarily different? I just don’t see that lack of difference as an issue. Nor do I see a way to make it revolutionarily different.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 12:40 pm: Edit

I am concerned that the 50/ 200 rule might be a bit too drastic. Maybe something like 75/ 150?
SVC SAYS WE WILL SEE ABOUT IT WHEN WE GET THERE BUT IT IS MUCH EASIER TO DO HALF/DOUBLE THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

I would like to see the various empires again be more different. So there would be empire specific tech that doesn't get into service elsewhere For example:
SVC DOESN'T SEE ANY NEED FOR MORE EMPIRE DIFFERENTIATION THAN WE HAVE IN X0.

A few kinds of empire specific drone racks. Maybe an GE rack that can do ADD or E rack duties. Only size 1/2 drones & stuff. Used by Klinks for anti drone and anti Stinger duties. Hasa the special ability to "burst fire" up to 4 VI drones at once...

Gorns/ Romulans/ ISC get different flavors of Plasma. So the ISC adopt Plasma D or K racks in place of some/ all of their aft Plasma F. Maybe they have a rack where they can replace each D with 2 K torps. Gorns get GW era (or X) Paravian torps to replace the F torps and the ability to carronade all tubes. Roms get something else.

ISC install PPDs on a lot more ships. Currently it is almost uncommon.

Tholians figure out how to make lots more Webcasters and replace many/ most/ all of their Photons & Disruptors. Maybe there are 4 or 5 different kinds of WC. One replaces the aft web generators and can only cast web in a limited arc, up to range 3 and only 3 hexes of web...

Maybe a new kind of "web" that functions like a EW wall and has a long duration?

Feds go for something from the Aurorans. I'm thinking something salvaged from one of the races there that got zorked out of existence

Lyrans go for the new and improved Disruptor cannon? Their ESG can now hold more in the capacitor and has a reduced cool down period. So you can cancel an announcement and then announce again in 4 impulses?

Someone figures out how to reverse engineer the Carnarvon turn weapon (heel nipper) and cram it into a 2 space drone. Fires at up to range 4. Just for the Kzinti to screw with the Lyrans and Klingons.

1/2 space module for a drone that gives JUST THAT drone a couple/ three points of ECM protection that also help vs ADD. IN any module position.

Drones that have a "top speed" and a "range in hexes" so I can program it to go speed 20 early and then fire it up to speed 32 on demand.
SVC FEARS THIS ONE WOULD GET IMPOSSIBLY COMPLEX.

A 2 space drone module that can drop off a 4 or 5 point mini tbomb after a preprogrammed number of hexes travelled. Drone bus keeps going to preserve the mystery. Rare.
SVC NOTES THAT RARE BECOMES COMMON IN THE HANDS OF PLAYERS AND SAYS THIS ONE IS TOO DANGEROUS TO CONSIDER.

etc. Mostly not NEW tech, but each empire pulling what they think is the BEST tech and going all in.

By Ken Rodeghero (Ken_Rodeghero) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 12:52 pm: Edit

A fair point but I did say evolution and not revolution. If X2 was different from X1 similar to how X1 was different than GW then that would fit the bill for me: that is, better or upgraded (but not more) weapons and technology, etc.

Modern naval battles are vastly different than WW2-era. Is that a fair comparison of X2 vs. GW? I don’t know. This is a game and need not be 100% analogous to anything real-world, although loosely shadowing historical events seems consistent with how SFB has been designed.

I would prefer that X2 vs. X2 be different in some interesting and meaningful way. As for some brilliant Option Three: I got nothin’ so I see the issue. I just wanted to articulate my thoughts.

By Ken Rodeghero (Ken_Rodeghero) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 12:58 pm: Edit

I’ve also grown more fond of the 50/200 rule the more I’ve thought about it. I was trying to think of ways to show the differences and considered having an X2 ship require two slashes to destroy a system/box when taking damage from a non-X2 ship. Then I realized this was the same @#$& thing.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 01:06 pm: Edit

While I can support the 50/200 or 75/150 dynamic when fighting across tech boundaries, I am interested in X2 vs. X2 battles being different, in some way. Perhaps extending overload range to 10 or 12 hexes, introducing heavy overloads at 4 hexes, and improving hit probabilities slightly. I just think that X2 vs. X2 fighting needs to be deadlier, with typical damage being higher than X1 vs. X1, GW vs. GW, MY vs. MY, or EY vs. EY eras.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 02:29 pm: Edit

This is just my $0.02 CAD worth here, and *purely* my opinion. That said, if I'm ignored, or the Steves don't find this workable, I'm not about to huff like a petulant child and grab my ball, headed home....

When we saw X1 pop out, we saw a HUGE increase in offensive capabilities, but not nearly as much of an increase in defensive capability. This lead to the idiom of X1 being "eggshells flying around with hammers".

What if the X2 evolution put the weapons development on hold, and emphasized the defenses of the ships, giving them endurance under fire?

Defensive modes might also be a development for some weapons, like what I suggested in the Tholian X2 thread many years ago of a Web Caster firing mode that solidified on a target's shield facing, preventing all non-Tholian phasers and heavy weapons (aside from web breakers) from being fired through it for a short duration (on the order of 8 impulses or so).

Again, just my thoughts on it for a unique direction to consider.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 02:51 pm: Edit

We will definitely see evolution (not revolution).

X2 ships will have more power than X1 ships (not to mention X0 and XM and XY ships) for the same move cost.
X0 flies at speed 15 with loaded weapons.
X1 flies at speed 22 with loaded weapons.
X2 might well fly at speed 30 with loaded weapons.

X0 isn't dangerous beyond four hexes.
X1 is dangerous at eight or ten.
X2 might be dangerous at sixteen.
We need to be careful here and keep maneuver as the key element, not snuff it out.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 03:16 pm: Edit

We need to be careful here and keep maneuver as the key element, not snuff it out. One idea I remember considering was a 7th "reserve" shield to catch whatever leaked through the main ones. That might make maneuvering to hit a side or rear shield irrelevant, so I'd go slowly in that direction. Longer weapons ranges (say range 12 overloads) also make maneuver less relevant.

The reason SFB has been a 44 year success story is that I dumb lucked into just the perfect mix of maneuver (speed vs weapons ranges) on the first pass. The reason Sup2 failed was the super-phasers meant any range other than one was irrelevant and which shield you hit didn't matter so you just flew right at the enemy and rolled dice. Not really any point in playing at all; just roll some dice and see who gets the best score.

We might want to use seeking weapons to drive the enemy even harder. Speed 48 plasma/drones/Stingers-Spiders, if not speed 64.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 04:32 pm: Edit

A post-Y175 General War ship should stand some chance against a X-tech ship. Otherwise, what's the point of including them in the game? Seriously, if they unbalance the game, you need to just build a whole new X-tech only game engine for them. Let's assume we're talking about modern wet navy wargames and how that translates to SFB.

Early Years == Teddy Roosevelt's pre-Dreadnought Great White Fleet.
Middle Years / Four Powers War Era == Dreadnought-era Omaha-class cruisers.
General War (to Y175) == World War Two Cleveland-class cruisers.
General War (Y175+) == Korean War / Cold War era Boston-class guided-missile cruisers.
X-1 Advanced Tech == Late 20th-century Ticonderoga-class guided-missile cruisers.
X-2 Ultra Tech == Early 21st-century Zumwalt-class guided-missile destroyers.

So, can a WW-2 ship stand up to a 1960's ship? Sure, it might not win but it'll put up a good fight. Can it stand up to a 1990's ship? Again, it probably won't win, but it could do some serious damage. By the same token, a Cold War ship should be able to take on a late-century ship, and perhaps could get a lucky shot in on a new, stealthy modern ship.

Same idea applies here. I don't expect a time-warped Four Powers War ship to survive against a X-1 ship let along an X-2 ship. But it should have half a chance against a Y168-Y175 ship, just as a Y180 ship should have a chance against an -2 ship.

Or have I missed the point????


Garth L. Getgen

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 04:43 pm: Edit

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Everything you said has been part of the product plan and overall game development plan for 43 years. You said nothing new, nothing we aren't already doing.

By Ken Rodeghero (Ken_Rodeghero) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 05:19 pm: Edit

SVC,

Great point on the balance between speed, maneuver, weapon ranges, and seeking weapons. Any change will drive other changes to re-find the sweet spot for a tactically interesting game. It would be far too easy for the game to devolve to overruns, range 50+ phaser duels, or something else being the only viable tactic. Losing overloaded phasers in X1 helped but lots of testing will be needed to balance on the knife edge again.

Any chance X2 ships will move more than 32 hexes in a turn?

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and entertaining the conversation.

Ken

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 05:24 pm: Edit

From a game mechanic perspective I think 30 or 31 is going to be more than enough. It just gets icky trying to move ships two hexes in one impulse.

By Nick Samaras (Koogie) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 05:37 pm: Edit

SVC,

Technology aside, have you thought about where you want to take the history of the SFU in X2? Aside from the Xorkaelian invasion.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, November 14, 2020 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Yes. You'll read it in X2.