Based on my (limited) understanding of the timeline and design intent of the X2 ships, aren't they supposed to be more capable and well rounded than X1 ships? Not sure if that was a consensus or just one interpretation of what X2 "should" be, but it seems reasonable.

The X2 ships were all designed during the Andromedan War, so it seems reasonable that they would all have built in capabilities to hunt RTN nodes, either via a universal X2 technology (providing some or all special sensor capabilities), HDW style option boxes, or a full flex system capable of different functions (including special sensors) during the same scenario.

It also doesn'ts seem like a stretch to say that the engineering advances allowing X2 also allowed cheaper production of standard GW level technologies, making more powerful engines practical even for bulk freighters.

By Jean Sexton Beddow (Jsexton) on Tuesday, December 01, 2020 - 03:30 pm: Edit

Jay, I would strongly suggest you read X1 and X1R thoroughly before making more suggestions. You enthusiasm for this project is heartening, but you may need to understand more about the "current" X-ships to understand where they are heading.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Tuesday, December 01, 2020 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Alan: 44! == 2.65827e+54.


Garth L. Getgen

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, December 01, 2020 - 06:49 pm: Edit

X2 ships are not particularly designed to hunt Andros. The Andro War was over when they were built.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Tuesday, December 01, 2020 - 09:50 pm: Edit

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Would advanced technology (X1 and/or X2) versions of the Prime Corvette and/or the Armed Cutter be off the table also, or might they be placed in a separate category to auxiliary units derived from bulk freighter hulls?

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The standard "cargo pod and an engine" freighters never had X1 so they don't need and won't have X2.

As far as Free Traders, Armed Transports, and Fast Couriers (FedEx) they'll get similar upgrades to anything else.

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By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 09:07 am: Edit

See, that's the thing that confuses me about X2.

I always figured that X1 was the experimental phase where empires did radical things to improve their position in the war. So, only some elements were improved and those improvements were applied very unevenly.

For X2, it is no longer experimental; it is just how things are done now. The (economic) costs should be less than X1 because they know what they are doing now and are not making such radical experiments. In other words, X2 would be the "new normal".

When the empires moved into the Middle Years from the Early Years, *everything* moved up. They went from the "normal" of the EY to the "new normal" of the MY. So, I would expect something similar for X2: it is just the "new normal", which would imply that everything is moved into X2.

Getting back to the "costs" part, I would NOT expect X2 ships to be (in game and in background; obviously BPV is a completely different beast) more expensive than X1. X2 should be a demonstration of what was learned, experience at doing it, and economies of scale. Therefore, X2 should not be super-rare and hard to get; it should just be how things are done.

With the move into the Middle Years, everything was upgraded because it (presumably) make economic sense. Even freighters were upgraded because it make no economic sense to keep older, slower ships around. Time and technology moved along, and even civilian enterprises had to keep up. I would expect the same thing for the X2 transition. X2 shouldn't be "super-X1". Instead, it should be "X1 made mainstream".

And in that case, I guess that's what I would want to see for X2. Rather than ramping up even over X1, it would take those X1 improvements and apply them evenly everywhere. Plus, the ship designs would no longer be "war-footing", but rather more general purpose to allow for more flexible deployment and use. I'd probably also end up endorsing the idea of wide-spread NWO use on all ships to increase that flexibility. (Plus, remove the need for so many variants.)

I know that the above is all unusable nonsense, but using the above approach would "feel" more like organic growth than just continuing to make bigger, faster, meaner death ships.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 09:50 am: Edit

I don't agree that X2 is cheaper than X1.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 10:00 am: Edit

Perhaps it's as much a question of logistics as it is of familiarity with the technology itself.

In Module X1R, it's noted that while the transition from the Y-era GURPS Prime Directive Tech Level 11 to the "modern" (GPD Tech Level 12) era could be handled with (more or less) the same resource base, X-technology requires new rare minerals, new industrial processes, and new logistical networks - which over in Federation and Empire are abstracted as XTPs. Such efforts were quite limited through the end of the General War, but would accelerate in the years to follow (not least once all of those "war surplus" gunboats get converted into workboats and used by teams of prospectors to search for the resources in question).

While this process is hinted at in F&E ISC War, it might eventually be more fully accounted for in F&E Andromedan War - both in terms of how more fully integrated the production and application of XTPs would be, and in terms of how much of that progress was interrupted by the actions of the Andromedan invaders.

Would the use of XTPs have become more "normalized" as of Y205, or might there have been there unforeseen roadblocks (Andros notwithstanding) in terms of XTP production that keep them at somewhat of a premium?

By Benjamin Kidd (Bakidd) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 10:16 am: Edit

I can't disagree that the actual real-world trend has been for the same military unit to cost more as technology improves. Even as a percentage of GDP, an F-22 costs far more than an F-15, which was a dramatic jump from an F-86, which cost considerably more than any WWII aircraft.

Is that the kind of divergence we would expect to see in X2 technology? Would everything get more expensive, or would some elements (technologies with non-military applications) become cheaper? Compared to WWII, for example, the cost to build an aircraft carrier (as a share of GDP) is so high only the US operates them, while the relative cost of building a supercomputer or atomic weapons is way down.

I can see it going either way, but if X2 is more expensive than X1, X2 pirates seem impractical (like non-state actors fielding F-22 equivalents).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 10:51 am: Edit

Benjamin,

Actually, it's not clear the unit cost, adjusted for size of the production run, of an F-22 is that much more expensive than the F-15 as a percentage of GDP. The problem is that the very hefty R&D costs were amortized over only a small number of production airframes. If you spend $20 billion on R&D, and if the final product costs $100 million a copy once you begin serial production, and if you only build 100 units; you have spent $20 billion R&D and $10 billion actual production costs for 100 units. This $30 billion for 100 units results in a cost of $300 million per unit. But if you produce 500 units your total costs amount to $70 billion for 500 units; a much more reasonable (though still expensive) $140 million per copy.

The F-22 would have been a very expensive fighter in any case. But its apparent cost is sometimes exaggerated by the fact that so few (195, of which 8 were test models and 187 operational airframes) were ultimately built. Originally, more than 700 F-22s were planned, which would have drastically reduced the cost per unit. By contrast, I believe more than 1500 F-15s of all models have been built, amortizing the R&D costs over a much larger number of airframes.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 10:57 am: Edit

Addendum to the previous:

Figuring out the "real" cost of aircraft like the F-22 or F-35 (or Typhoon) is very difficult. As far as I can tell, there is no universally-agreed-upon methodology regarding the "correct" way to compute the costs. So different sources come up with significantly different answers depending on the methods they use, and whether they want the system in question to seem cheap or expensive. There are comparable difficulties determining the "real" operational cost per flight hour.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 11:18 am: Edit

To clear up something:

- There is a reason I said "economies of scale". It is that outlined by Alan above.

- When I said that X2 costs less than X1, I simply mean that they don't have all of those ridiculous R&D costs Alan mentions. Maybe the individual components are still pricy, but the whole thing is able to be produced at much larger scale meaning the average prices effectively go down. They are still ludicrously expensive ships.

- I am positing that the XTP is no longer needed. XTP was required because *reasons*. I dunno. Fundamentally, it meant that the empires didn't know what they were doing or how to do it well, and XTP was a construct used to reflect that limited ability to construct X1 ships. With X2, they *do* know what they are doing, so all of those other special considerations don't apply. X2 becomes just normal "general production ships" for their era.

Finally, I want to admit that the above is all NOT the direction that SVC is heading. He appears to be doubling-down on the "specialness" of X2 as ramped up from even X1. This is intended to be a suggestion for a different approach.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 11:32 am: Edit

Also, can X2 admin shuttles have 10 damage points and move speed 12 or 16? Might as well give them a chance to take a hit from something. Maybe 12 damage points so they can take a T-bomb?

They still just have a Ph-3. The idea is not to make them *cause* damage, but rather to make them much more survivable in their increasingly dangerous environment.

(If you want an explanation, the extra damage points are really just a very small 360 degree shield. The actual shuttle is still the same size. Just a lot hardier.)

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 11:56 am: Edit

X2 does indeed have ridiculous R&D costs.

Modern day fighter costs are not relevant to this discussion. I told you the answer (no X2 police ships) so move on to something else.

By Benjamin Kidd (Bakidd) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 12:13 pm: Edit

Mike, if admin shuttles get substantial improvements from X2 tech, it's hard to argue that improved X2 fighters would somehow not result, which is an item on the "hard no" list.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 12:17 pm: Edit

I have some questions

When X2 ships are fielded, will new classes of X1 and non-X ships still be deployed by the various space empires that have access to X2?
ANSWER BY SVC: NO, THE EXISTING CLASS OF X1 SHIPS ARE ADEQUATE.

Will non-X technology also improve as the timeline goes on?
ANSWER BY SVC: NO.

When a large war comes to the galaxy once again, will it be fought with only a handful of X2 ships, or will there be some sort of way to mobilise non-X resources effectively?
ANSWER BY SVC: YOU FIGHT A WAR WITH WHAT YOU HAVE. ALL EMPIRES WILL HAVE SOME X2, A BUNCH OF X1, AND SOME X0 WITH LOTS OF X0 IN MOTHBALL RESERVE.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Nuclear Powered Warships. So we should have nuclear powered commercial ship. They did build one (1), and scrapped it. It is not cost effective taking into account all of the expenses. Freighters have radar, but it does not compare to military grade radars. Freighters are vulnerable to pirates going through the straits of Mallacca or along the Somali coast or the Nigerian coast, but are not much faster (or better armed) than they were at the end or World War II. And "fast" convoys were quickly discontinued after the war in favor of more economical speeds (and, yes, they were not in convoys any more). So I do no see X2 freighters (or X-1 Freighters).

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 02:18 pm: Edit

Since I hadn't seen all of the old discussions, I wanted to make sure that approach was mentioned. Not really an issue.