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	Archive through December 05, 2020	25		12/05 05:56pm

Might it make sense for the Federation Police to build or convert more police ships (and mission variants: scout, commando, etc) to the "improved" (R2.A2) standards by this point in time?

Or, might it make more sense for them to build or convert some of their police flagships to "battle frigate" standards, and/or to bring more of their POL mission variants up to "police frigate" (R2.121) standards?

For that matter, can police frigates themselves be given "improved" (frigate-sized) engines, or would the swapping out of one engine type for a more powerful type only work for "dynamic balance purposes" with a two-engine POL?

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On an historical note, the R-section entry for the police frigate notes that the decision to put this class into production was somewhat of an economic bailout, aimed at propping up the primary contractor for the production of POL warp engines (of which the police frigate uses three).

Perhaps, by the time this topic was being re-addressed, said contractor might have found a means of re-tooling their facilities to build frigate-sized engines... or perhaps they ended up going bankrupt after all, allowing their rivals (who already could build such engines) to swoop in and make a more compelling bid.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, December 05, 2020 - 01:30 pm: Edit

I would like to see a FF based version of a POL flagship. NOT with greater everything than the FLG, but just the extra stuff that a FLG has put into a frigate. Maybe start with a Frigate transport, and convert some of those cargo boxes to barracks/ cargo/ special mission shuttle/ etc...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, December 05, 2020 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Mike Grafton:

I suggest, strongly, that you check Module R6. Most FLGs ARE FRIGATES. The Pol hull was too small to have the extra stuff installed.

Fed FLG is a FF variant.

Klingon FLG is an E4 variant.

Romulans got a BattleHawk variant.

Kzinti FLG is a FF Variant (but until the Cutter showed up, the POl was also an FF variant)

Gorn FLG is a DD variant (but as has been noted, they have the smallest destroyer and anyone else would have called it a frigate).

Tholian FLG will be in Module R4T, and is essentially a DD variant.

Orions . . . you are kidding, right?

Hydrans FLG, the Inspector is a Gendarme Variant

Andromedans . . . again, you are kidding, right?

Lyrans is an FF variant.

WYNs . . . Please, you are killing me.

ISC is a Destroyer Variant.

LDR is a Frigate (got one finally).

Seltorians, none.

Jindarians. None.

Vudar a Frigate variant.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, December 05, 2020 - 05:01 pm: Edit

For what it's worth: I do recall seeing a fan-design SSD of the Fed FLG redone in the shape of the POL. It had all the same boxes, just not in a saucer. On the flip side, I made a SSD for the POL as a saucer; again, with all the same boxes and phaser arcs.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, December 05, 2020 - 05:56 pm: Edit

So... it appears that the existing POL ship class (Callahan class for example, the one depicted in the published deck plans) is trending towards obsolete as the time line moves closer to the X2 era.

SVC (above) mentioned that a heavier Police ship would be a better option, and that such things are already in the game.

IIRC, there were several designs published in Captains Log, but again, iirc, none were entirely successful for various reasons.

So, it would appear that a Non X2 police ship design would need a higher movement cost than 1/3=0.334,

Have more than 1 photon torpedoes,
Have more than 3 phaser 1’s,
Have at least 2 phaser 3 defense phasers,
Have at least 1 drone rack (type G?)
Have a minimum of 2 cargo boxes.
Have at least 2 admin shuttles.

And it needs to use an existing warp engine design that is in production and used by the Federation in an existing (published) design available near the X2 YIS service date for Star Fleet X2 ships.

What the design can not do, is make the Fed X1 and X2 frigate designs obsolete.

It can not replace the Federation Police FLG obsolete.

And it may not have special sensors.

Any other restriction or guidelines that need to be observed?

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, December 05, 2020 - 10:11 pm: Edit

It was purged from the board when SVC/Jean cleaned out old topics, but once upon a time long ago I posted a submission for the Wide-body POL.

Take the standard POL+ and cut the aft hull down the middle. Insert about five meters width with the following SSD additions: one box each Center-Hull, Cargo, Shuttle (but no extra spare shuttle), Tractor, Impulse, AWR, Ph-1, and G-rack Drone. Shields increase from 14/12/10/9/10/12 to 15/12/12/12/12/12. Crew size increases from 10 to 12 and BP from 4 to 6. Warp boxes and move cost remain the same. No changes to the forward hull section.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, December 05, 2020 - 11:34 pm: Edit

So you added 8 SSD boxes.

Up to the Steve’s to decide, but at a guess, that increase in mass should increase the movement cost.

Given the long discussions about the POL being some what under powered, it might be reasonable to swap the original 5 box warp nacelles for the 6 box FF/FFG types.

That would add a net total of 2 more warp power than the the POL or the POL+ had.

That ups the increased SSD boxes by (8+2=10).

I’d suggest making the movement cost 3/8.

That, or add a third 5 box POL engine nacelle and just make the Movement cost 1/2=0.50.

But, again, it’s up to the Steve’s to decide.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, December 06, 2020 - 02:17 am: Edit

I recall this same discussion back then. {sigh} Note that this adds two points of power (IMP & AWR) but only one Phaser to eat that energy, so it already has a net gain of one power. There's not enough added to justify giving it two more points (four total), even with a change of movement cost. If it got a third engine, I'd want to give it a second Photon. And hey look! They already made such a ship. See Module R-8 for the PFF.

EDIT: I might consider swapping the second TRAC (which is basically padding) for another BTTY to help the power curve.


Garth L. Getgen

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, December 06, 2020 - 10:25 am: Edit

If it wasn't too much trouble, I wanted to re-state my thoughts from my last post into a more formal set of suggestions.

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To lean on the historical data in the police frigate R-section, perhaps Solar Turbomecha (the primary contractor for the 5-box POL warp engines, and the owners of the Tacoma-Rigel yards which produced the PFF class) finally went bankrupt in Y187 - perhaps as a consequence of the anti-corruption investigations launched in the wake of the collapse of Chairman Torrance's government that same year (according to the data in Prime Directive Federation). At this point, the owners of the Blohm and Vulcan shipyard (noted as having proposed the improved cutter design back in Y177) would swoop in to make a bid to take over the Tacoma-Rigel yards, leading to a debate in the Council as to the yard's fate.

For their part, the Federation Police, while aware of the need to respond to the increasingly dangerous threat posed by the Orions and Andromedans in their areas of operation, are wary of being forced to rely too heavily on Star Fleet for their logistical support. So, as part of the deal brokered to resolve the impasse, the new owners agree to refurbish the Tacoma-Rigel yard to be able to construct frigate engines (which the yards at Blohm and Vulcan are noted as already building), to guarantee that the police get "first refusal" on any work to be commissioned at Tacoma-Rigel going forward, while increasing access to the Blohm and Vulcan yard for police commissions.

The result of all this is that, from Y187 onwards, the following begin to take place:

*The improved police cutter design from Captain's Log #24 is resurrected; new ships of this design begin to be constructed at both yards, while older POLs are steadily refitted to the new configuration over time. By Y205, the IPL has become the most common police ship in Federation service.

*Just as the standard POL has been used to create various "mission variants" over time [see (R2.A35) to (R2.A38) in Captain's Log #47], so too would the improved cutter be used as the basis for scout, commando, and other such variants. Again, some of these would be new builds, while others might be upgrades of hulls built to the configurations seen in CL47.

*An "improved" version of the police frigate, with its 5-box POL engines swapped out for 6-box FF engines, would also enter service. However, it would serve in more limited numbers relative to the IPL. (That said, perhaps it too might be given a number of "mission variants", if there were enough of these hulls in service to warrant it.)

*A new "heavy police flagship" design is created, which does for the police flagship what the battle frigate does for the standard frigate. While some FLGs are upgraded and some new heavy police flagships built, regular FLGs remain in service in certain corners of Federation space. (Perhaps a "design competitor" could be an alternative police flagship design based on the "improved" police frigate suggested above?)

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The sum total of all these designs and re-designs would be to give the Federation Police a somewhat different look as of Y205 relative to their structure as of Y185, without going too far away from designs found in various SFB modules and issues of Captain's Log.

Of course, I defer to ADB's wisdom as to whether or not any of the above would be worth considering.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, December 06, 2020 - 03:03 pm: Edit

Sorry, I meant to say onto the battle frigate (etc).

IIRC the darn FLGs are usually nearly defenseless. It's the "stuff" that makes them important.

By Benjamin Kidd (Bakidd) on Sunday, December 06, 2020 - 07:16 pm: Edit

Gary, also note that an improved Police Corvette is also possible. Per Captain's Log #23, by the end of the General War some shipyards were able to produce nine box large freighter engines which were not subject to the acceleration limitations of previous commercial engines.

Given that the (R2.A3) Police Corvette design was abandoned because of the limitations of the then-available engines (freighter engines were too slow, while eight box military engines were unavailale), and a prototype was actually built using the eight box large armed freighter engines, that design would surely have been re-evaluated and likely produced in significant numbers if the prototype showed the frame could handle the engines.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, December 07, 2020 - 03:53 pm: Edit

I might note that the IPL retains the POL's nimbleness and its Move Cost of 1/3, whereas both the police corvette and police destroyer (R2.A4) are Move Cost 1/2 units which are not nimble.

While an argument could be made for the Federation Police to consider moving to destroyer-sized units as the basis for their fleet going forward (and if that's how things end up going, well and good), I might personally prefer keeping Move Cost 1/2 units (such as the improved police frigate and heavy police flagship units proposed in my last post) as backstops rather than as mainstays.

By Benjamin Kidd (Bakidd) on Monday, December 07, 2020 - 05:29 pm: Edit

Gary,
The size of the average police unit in the X2 era is a cultural/doctrinal issue. They can obviously build the larger ships, the question is whether there is the desire (of police command) and political will (of the various empires) to build them and pay for the larger crews. No organization can avoid fighting the last war to some extent, so how did the last war play out?

Specifically, how did the Andromedan War play out for police vessels? Did a bunch of them just get blown up by the Andromedans when trying to escort convoys and defend colonies, or did they keep their police cutters in the safe zones?

If a bunch of Fed police ships died heroically while protecting convoys from Andros, I could see the public supporting larger police ships. If they mostly cowered in their bases and waited for fleet support, I agree their doctrine would solidify around improved but still move 1/3 ships and relying on the navy to intercept any X1 or X2 pirates that show up.

By Benjamin Kidd (Bakidd) on Tuesday, December 08, 2020 - 12:40 pm: Edit

Are the war destroyer's six box engines exactly the same as the frigate's? It looks like it but the R section entry doesn't state it outright.

If so, then Gary's scenario of the Federation police upgrading all their cutters using frigate engines seems extremely plausible, as the shipyards will be awash with excess frigate engine production capability and looking to sell those engines to someone after the war destroyer construction contracts dry up as the General War ends.

If Solar Turbomecha starts undercutting other major competitors for the largest contract currently available, rather than just picking up the scraps, those competitors might just point intrepid investigative reporters to various shady dealings they were already aware of but had ignored when they weren't a threat to their own bottom line.

Alternately, Blohm and Vulcan could just be flush with cash from their success with their wartime construction contracts and simply buy out struggling Solar Turbomecha to ensure a steady market for their frigate engines after the war.