Thanks for the continued reporting!

Not that it mattered, but why'd you launch the two type IVF on impulse 27, when he had time to react and deal with them, rather than wait till R1?

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Thursday, December 03, 2020 - 09:45 am: Edit

"and opened activity to give him the business."

Remind me to Never get this guy mad at me - that's Mob Talk!

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, December 03, 2020 - 11:47 am: Edit

"why'd you launch the two type IVF on impulse 27,"

I'm not 100% sure, but I think the rationale was planning on turning a down shield to him to get his #1 on i30 and so it wouldn't hurt my feelings too much if he used a bunch of phasers on the drones, which he did. I was also concerned that he would go ahead and shoot my weak #1 and kill a rack before they fired if I waited.

He was direction E, and I was a couple of hexes north of the spine facing C, and he had already tacced four times. He could have had a tac, but I sort of doubted it. My plan was to go to R2 on the spine, where my down #6 faced his partially repaired #1 (because I was moving and he wasn't).

He also had both tractors still at that point, so if I launched on i32 at R1 he could drop trac to the slow Type I and tractor the Type IV's, and shoot the Type I with a phaser cycling over the turn break.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, December 03, 2020 - 01:57 pm: Edit

Ok, seems reasonable.

Keep in mind that with tractors, if you voluntarily drop a tractor, you can't use that tractor again for 8 impulses, so if you have 2 drones in tractor on impulse 32, you can't drop them and immediately tractor drones on impulse 1.

Also, at R1, due to the sequence of play, tractoring (and labbing) drones both happen before drone launch, so if you launch fast drones at R1, your opponent can't tractor or ID those drones the same impulse. Which generally results in being forced to overkill them with phasers to avoid being hit by the drones [*].

[*] There is also the seldom used "I launch a suicide shuttle at the incoming fast drone!" which *does work against a R1 drone launch. But then, if your opponent blows up the shuttle, and he probably will, you end up getting hit by the drone anyway. Wah wah.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, December 03, 2020 - 02:20 pm: Edit

That's right, and kind of knew that, but I remember thinking that maybe he could shoot the Type I, eliminating the tractor "involuntarily" such that it would be available right away? My thought processes may not have been optimal. I thought about looking this up, but decided, for the other reasons given, it wasn't worth the look and I should just launch early and let him shoot drones, since with Type IVs he would have to use multiple phasers to guarantee a kill at R1, or fire at R2 and clean up at R1 if necessary, which was okay with me too.

I do think of the Klingon as a DF ship with drones around to bother your opponent with so you can get better DF shots without completely dying, not a drone ship with disruptors. Maybe this is wrong, but it's been how I fly the ship to date.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, December 03, 2020 - 03:43 pm: Edit

Graham wrote:
>>I do think of the Klingon as a DF ship with drones around to bother your opponent with so you can get better DF shots without completely dying, not a drone ship with disruptors. Maybe this is wrong, but it's been how I fly the ship to date.>>

Heh, I played the Kzinti for many, many years, and that's how the Kzinti worked too. Drones suck up phasers and compromise maneuver. If I ever hit my enemy with drones, it was mostly by accident, or occasionally 'cause I was already winning, and the drones just made me win more.

That being said, if you can ever arrange to launch fast drones from R1 such that they'll hit the next impulse unless your opponent shoots them down immediately, always do that :-)

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Thursday, December 03, 2020 - 08:51 pm: Edit

Hey Graham,

Has anyone attempted boarding party raids against your power systems?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, December 04, 2020 - 02:09 am: Edit

Not in my experience. Hitting power is often good on the DAC, but power hits don't to anything until the next turn, so they aren't generally what you want if you are desperate enough to H&R anyway.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, December 04, 2020 - 07:35 am: Edit

I honestly don't see H+R raids happen all that much in tournament play; usually when they happen, they are a desperation play against a guarded tractor or something. Once and a while, a Klingon will have allocated a point of power to transporters, they'll send a flurry of H+R raids in a knife fight, maybe kill one rando, unguarded system, and not much will happen as a result.

The .2 cost of transporters generally means you need to allocate for something that isn't likely to pay off most of the time, if you can even try it, or have a point of battery power you can use for the fractional costs, which is generally going to be less useful than just having the whole battery available for speed changes or tractors or something. Sometimes you'll have a half a point of power left over from a P3 refill, and putting that into transporters isn't out of the realm of reason, but even then, you are often just better off leaving your phaser capacitor .5 light, planning on fire a P1 as a P3, and using the full point of power for something more effective.

I mean, yeah, I'm sure there have been games won or lost by virtue of a H+R raid larkilly blowing up a guarded tractor and all, but generally speaking, H+R raids don't come up much, and when they do, they tend to not really have much effect.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Friday, December 04, 2020 - 10:17 am: Edit

The chance to be successful is practically nill against a guarded system. Granted, the chance is not good against a non-guarded system. Never-the-less, if one is going to do it, a battery, impulse, APR or Warp is not likely to be guarded. Maybe a shuttle bay or a lesser phaser could be targets. If one destroys a shuttle bay with an armed shuttle, woohoo - one less wild weasel or suicide shuttle and internal damage to boot. I lost a bridge once - it turned out not to be critical. My opponent was a non-conventional thinker. Smiling, he said he almost got the captain of the ship!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, December 04, 2020 - 10:49 am: Edit

John wrote:
>>Never-the-less, if one is going to do it, a battery, impulse, APR or Warp is not likely to be guarded.>>

Sure. But as Graham pointed out, usually when H+R Raids happen, it is the result of general desperation in a situation where ships are already messed up. And in those situations, you are generally trying to H+R something specific that is going to kill you very soon (i.e. the tractor you are stuck in, or the phaser that is going to turn into arc and shoot you next impulse or something), and those specific things are usually guarded.

Like, sure, if you are in a situation where you can just launch 5xH+R raids into a mostly undamaged ship at low risk, and you are just looking to do general damage, hit the things that probably aren't guarded, as then you are likely to at least get *something*. But those don't tend to be the instances where H+R raids happen most often.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, December 04, 2020 - 12:43 pm: Edit

One additional point is that it's generally necessary to use ever-valuable reserve power for the H&R, making the transporter use more expensive in real terms.

It's just not something you see a lot, although it kind of made sense here since the opportunity cost was so low for Lee; he didn't have a lot of shielding anyway and hitting even one disruptor would have evened out the internals that impulse, leaving him a disruptor up the rest of the game with an additional few points on his #1.

Also it depends on the situation. You probably don't risk the down shield most of the time, but seeing a beat-up but weapons-rich Klingon floating in to R2 with OLs obviously allocated (Speed 15 all turn, not a lot of reinforcement, yeah, he knew I had OLs), with a 4 point facing shield, it made more sense here.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Friday, December 04, 2020 - 07:49 pm: Edit

In a knife fight, I took out my opponent's last impulse with an H&R on i32 (nobody guards impulse engines. Unlike warp, each box has to be guarded individually) . So next turn, he couldn't TAC twice by i3 to get a fresh shield in arc and point the other big plasma (a KR) at me before my weapons cycled. So he tried to HET and broke down.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Friday, December 04, 2020 - 08:44 pm: Edit

Cool! I will keep that in mind for future use!

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Saturday, December 05, 2020 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Jim,
Agreed. Wow. That is a great idea.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Sunday, December 06, 2020 - 12:52 am: Edit

Jim,

A single boarding Party , assigned as a guard, is sufficient to protect all connecting impulse engines(D7.8372).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, December 06, 2020 - 09:16 am: Edit

Yeah, you gotta guard each impulse group, but not each box.

But in general, much like the "I got the guarded tractor and escaped and won!", any instances of H+R raids having a significant impact on the game tend to be pretty few and far between :-)

Yeah, you *can* get the last impulse engine and prevent your opponent from using an impulse TAC on the next turn or hit the shuttle bay and blow up their last weasel or get their last unguarded P3, so the next stray internal gets the P1 that was about to clear and shoot you. But it really doesn't happen much, as H+R raids don't work much, and usually when you need them most, you don't have the power available.

I mean, not to say that if you *can* use a H+R raid, and it might save you, you shouldn't try. But still, in a grand sense, they don't seem to happen much or have much of an effect in tournament play.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Sunday, December 06, 2020 - 01:11 pm: Edit

All true.

Yet in the Klingon vs ISC skittle games between Graham and Lee I have seen Lee use H&R raids twice now and against guarded disruptors. That is ok because the ISC was desperate. The chance of success is very low however.

When I do the rare H&R raid, I have a tendency to target power systems. They are not likely to be guarded. Perhaps a better target would be the shuttle bay. There are four boxes for four H&R raids. One might get lucky with the dice (1/3 chance) and take out a scatter pack or suicide or wild weasel shuttle.

It is very tough to get a down shield on a ship that has fired all of its weapons, be within range 5, drop your facing shield and have transporters powered to do H&R raids. It is even tougher to obtain this condition early in the game.

Personally, 4 charged P1's will do more damage. Yet it is likely that both ships have fired all of their weapons. As Graham has indicated powering transporters can be done via batteries. Pssst, Lee I will not tell you that Graham's klingon has 7 transporters - SMILE.

By Lee Hanna (Lee) on Tuesday, December 08, 2020 - 10:59 pm: Edit

I used H&R twice? I thought I was being original!

Yes, I did note that the Klingon had 7 transporters, I was hoping he wasn't thinking of them.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Wednesday, December 09, 2020 - 04:55 am: Edit

I think in a close knife fight, 1 point of power is worth it for a chance at 5 internals.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Thursday, December 10, 2020 - 12:48 pm: Edit

Prufraack (ISC) - Summaryjudgment (Klingon) IV

Last time, I thought I had a fair amount of success with OLs and speed on turn one, so I plotted 19 moves 15/16/26 and filled my disruptors.  Lee started at 17, and slipped in a few times.  On i17, he went 31 and on i18, launched two 20 point plasma torpedoes from the B and C launchers, and turned off to direction B.

I thought for a moment about just ramming the torpedoes, but I could run them out without committing to turning off too early, and I didn't want to lose a shield and then take a PPD on it at end of turn.  So I eventually turned to C, and then finally to B, to run the torpedoes out. When I did, he turned back to A, but did not start the PPD on turn 1.  I discharged 4 OLs at end of turn, but I didn't feel to bad about it since I didn't take damage, either. I launched two type I-M drones on 32.

Turn 2 I was closer to start the turn, so I armed 4 OLs and moved 19 again, 15/26, since 15 gave me the two hexes in five impulses I needed to run the G's to 1 if they were real.  I moved direction B twice, while Lee continued to close and on i4 started the PPD, hitting me inside R10 four times centered on my #3,#3,#3, and #2 (when I turned on i7).  Both torps were real and impacted on i6, so I had the green light to charge.  However, he turned off and slipped out, eventually speeding up, so the best I could do was an R8 disruptor shot on his #3, hitting 3/4 for 18 shield damage. He fired a rear F, which I mis-timed and took for 20 on my #1. I launched two type I-M drones on 32.

At this point I was feeling confident. I had taken a fair amount of shield damage (I had a third of my #1 and #3, and dinged up #2 and #4) but I was in pursuit position going into a no-PPD, no-G Torpedo turn on which he would have, at most, two fast F's and a rear F.

Turn 3 I allocated OLs and speed (you may be sensing a pattern here), but because I had to refill some batteries, I set a weird 21/16/14/16 plot with the intent of using batteries to keep speed 21 if I needed to. Just leaving a disruptor empty would have been smarter and more flexible, so this was an unforced error I was lucky didn't cost me.

Lee started at 31, running into the northwest corner with me following behind about 10 hexes. He was facing F, close enough to the north edge that he would probably have to turn E and then D, rather than turning to the right (which would also have exposed his weak shield). So I stayed a few hex rows "below" him, to make up hexes when he turned.

Early in the turn, I burned my batteries to keep speed 21, as planned. On impulse 11 he had turned to direction E and launched a rear F (D-torpedo) as he turned south, at what was still fairly long range but possibly worried about the arc.

By i14 Lee was running south down the West wall and I was approaching along with my four drones, which his turn had allowed to group up in one hex.  On i14 he declared Emergency Deceleration to weasel the drones. On i15 he launched a 20 point B-torpedo.  On i16 he stopped, and weaseled.  I calculated I could end the turn at Range 1 with a couple hexes to spare, so I turned to direction E and moved forward to R8 perfect oblique, firing an OL disruptor at the weasel so the explosion period would be over before I arrived at R1.  I rolled a 1, getting it.  (We thought there was a 2-shift, but now I'm not so sure because I think the EW is for the ship, not the shuttle.  It didn't matter.)

I slipped out to consider running the F to 13, but then Lee declared that the B torpedo did not drop on its sixth move, meaning it was a G, and therefore a fake, not a fast F.  Therefore instead of running another hex (and ending the turn at R2) I slipped in front of the D-Torpedo, taking it for 10 on my clean #4, and then turned to direction F to close in.
On impulse 26, I couldn't avoid taking it inside range 5 so Lee fired the real fast F from the B launcher, and pushed it to my right so it hit my weak #3 for 5 in (my batteries were gone to keep speed 21).  Once again, my DAC luck held: F Hull x2, A Hull x2, Warp. [It hit on i30]

On impulse 27, Lee launched another weasel, both one impulse too late (to move out of his hex at speed 6) and too early (to avoid my killing it and getting a post-explosion period shot.  Unfortunately, I didn't notice that I could have done that until i29, so the weasel survived to be killed by drones.
On 3i31 my drones crushed the weasel, Lee taking 7 on his #5 as collateral.  On i32 I arrived at R1 and took my shot through the shift, the ISC took 21 on the #6. and we went to EA.

The critical thing, now that we were at R1, was not to let him get away...  I armed 3 OLs (Needed the energy and thought I might lose one before they cycled anyway), refilled the phasers and batteries, plotted a warp and an impulse tac, and put the rest in a 9 point tractor.  I thought it was unlikely that I could beat his tractor if he parked, but if he parked, I didn't much need to.
The ISC opened up in reverse, at -8, and on impulse 1 I tried the beam, going up to 8 and getting it with allocated tractor.
On i3 I launched a shuttle, which was labbed and IDed as an admin.

On i4 he fired a p3 at the shuttle and all 6 p1s at my ship.  He rolled okay for 30 damage but failed to cripple the shuttle and I burned batteries to leave my #6 at 5 boxes because I wanted to leave it facing for a few impulses if I could.

On i5 I launched another admin and on i6, both my admins moved direction A (so that if he took internals through #6 and then turned his #1 to me to use the C Torpedo, they would get shots in the hole)  On i6, he launched a shuttle (which I think had to be a suicide through the tractor tube, as no other legal way to do so) so I killed it with two p3s.

On i8 my weapons were hot, and I launched two fast heavies (I waited for weapons to cycle so that I could be sure to get the same shield even in the event of an ISC speed change.)  On i9 they hit for 35 in followed by 3 OLD, 3 p1 and 2 p2 for another 55 internals and the game.

Tough match; as usual when you're doing the approach in the Klingon you feel like you're losing; this goes double when you realize you'll be firing through a shift at the end. But the Klingon is still a great mugger.

By Steven Hecker (Sjhecker) on Thursday, December 10, 2020 - 01:05 pm: Edit

J.327. WW does not get the benefit of the 6 points of ECM, but does get small target modifier (E1.7), which is 2 ECM at ranges 12-24, and 4 ECM at 25+. So no shift at range 8.

By Lee Hanna (Lee) on Thursday, December 10, 2020 - 11:57 pm: Edit

Another match of doing well with the ISC boat... until it's wrecked. I even ran a handful of practice matches with it before this game, to work on the opening turns. It's time to quit with it, though it remains a favorite.

Next time, perhaps Carnivon or Frax?

A note: on the last turn, I brain-farted on his tractoring me, and put a lot of energy into reinforcing the #1, thinking I could pull away before his weapons cycled. I did power the tractors to stop the drones I knew were coming, but did not think of getting anchored. Sigh.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, December 11, 2020 - 12:49 am: Edit

I can't seem to find a Carnivon TCC. Frax TCC is on the ADB Website and has weapons I recognize. I don't know what Carnivons have and don't see it in my rulebook (the Silver Ed. compendium) so that might be a little harder.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Friday, December 11, 2020 - 09:17 am: Edit

There is a non-sanctioned Frax TC. Go to the StarfleetGames Home, click Master index, click T, click Tournament Downloads and you will find the Frax. I do not know about the "Online Tournament Ships" for Online play - someone else will have to help with that. Those 8 P1's should give the Frax the edge.

The ISC Emperor (aka me) reminds Lee that this is all a simulation. Even I have trouble facing off against the Klingon in the ISC. This is why the friendly match caught my interest. The Gorn fares better and so does the Romulan. Those 2 S torps and 2 F torps are much more feared.

If you really want to upset the norms, try a Klingon vs Klingon match - it can happen in tournament play.