I remember a discussion some time ago...but as usual cannot find the rule. Tumbling. Speed 0. So sitting at speed 0...HET...breakdown. I am remembering that you do not tumble when at speed 0. But...do not see that mentioned under Tumbling nor under movement nor breakdown. Am I just remembering wrong? Or because you were speed 0...you just do not tumble. There is no direction of travel. No stopping at the end. So forth so on. So...Speed 0. Tumble or not and if so where does it say you do not tumble at speed 0?

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 04:49 am: Edit

Charles,

I am not 100% on the rule, you might still tumble even at speed zero, tumbling in same hex.

Although it does say in
"(C6.551) The ship CONTINUES (for the duration of the post-breakdown period) moving in the direction, and at the speed, that it was moving BEFORE ATTEMPTING the HET regardless of its facing". (and speed zero is not moving)

"There is no adjustment to the breakdown rating for speed (C6.523)".

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Wednesday, December 02, 2020 - 10:52 am: Edit

Hi Charles,

Here's my take. As quoted just above, C6.551 says you continue at your same speed. In the case you raise, that speed would be 0. I didn't see anything in that rule or elsewhere that suggests speed 0 would be treated differently than other speeds.

It's also worth remembering that speed 0 doesn't necessarily mean motionless. For example, a ship can execute erratic maneuvers at speed 0. C10.22

Going back to your question, think of it this way. A HET involves two things: the sudden initiation of a turn and the sudden stop afterwards. If the ship broke down and started to tumble, instead of stopping the turn immediately afterwards, it continued to spin uncontrollably. This spinning is independent of lateral movement. In effect, the ship is conducting unplanned, uncontrolled erratic maneuvers. See C6.553. As mentioned, EM is possible at a speed 0.

So my interpretation is that a speed 0 ship can tumble.

Jay

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Friday, December 04, 2020 - 03:15 am: Edit

Thanks Jay and Wayne.

I just remember somewhere....there was a rule that said tumbling at speed zero just did not happen because.....of something.

Maybe SPP remembers? Maybe it was an outdated rule that got changed? Anyway...not critical. But I am curious.

Chuck

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Friday, December 04, 2020 - 08:33 am: Edit

All good Jay, the HET is also a movement cost at speed zero (for tumble).

Chuck, yes, SPP will know.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, December 04, 2020 - 03:28 pm: Edit

I see no rule that says a ship at Speed Zero cannot tumble and based on the wording I would say it would. The fact that it is "in place" rather than cartwheeling across the map is not relevant. Other than that, I would refer the matter to SVC.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Saturday, December 05, 2020 - 03:29 pm: Edit

Thanks. I just seem to remember something about it. No biggy. Appreciate the help and consideration.

Chuck

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, December 05, 2020 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Charles H. Carroll:

It is no problem. Even if the ship was not moving when it broke down, it would literally be spinning madly and probably not on its center of mass, meaning it is in fact oscillating and targeting is difficult. Other wise a ship at Speed Zero doing erratic maneuvers would be wasting its energy (Grin).

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, December 09, 2020 - 03:00 pm: Edit

Can automatic large captor mines of types C and D be programmed to fire more than one weapon at a target on a single impulse in response to a single triggering event? How about large command controlled captor mines? Would each command firing require its own control channel or does one channel simply control the mine?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, December 09, 2020 - 03:58 pm: Edit

John Christiansen:

Type C and type D captors do not have a specific prohibition limiting the number of weapons fired due to a triggering event, and clearly in the case of a phaser captor defending against plasma it would make the mine all but useless to have such a restriction.

One channel suffices.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, December 09, 2020 - 04:53 pm: Edit

Thanks, Steve.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Thursday, December 10, 2020 - 12:42 pm: Edit

How does (G10.833) affect a two strand buzz saw? Would fewer web hexes translate to a higher at start web strength?

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Thursday, December 10, 2020 - 08:42 pm: Edit

Lol...ok...I have looked back over months...of answers....and found one from Steve that seems to disagree now...with the rules...as I...someone often wrong...interprets them. And yes...I am kind of a stickler for how something is worded and where it is located to give it context.

Now the standard belief. In error according to the rules now. Is that a fleet can only have one scout in it normally. Now why do I say this concept is wrong. Well here is why. A discussion happened in a campaign I am in now. And it was stated the normal belief. Being the kind of guy I am...I looked up the relevant rules and discovered something. Everyone referred to a rule that made that claim. The problem is...that rule has been updated and changed. In my paper version of Advanced Missions Captains edition. The rule 8.35 states...(S8.35) SCOUTS: There can be no more than one scout. Any ship
with a diamond symbol ◆ on the Master Ship Chart is a scout;
however, some special sub-types of scouts are handled otherwise by
(S8.0). See (S8.365) for the Kzinti SSCS. See (S8.55) for Police
Flagships.

Pretty straight forward...but it is under the...adding a scout for free section. As in...you have a full fleet and no more room for extra ships. But...if it is a scout...you can add it in addition to the other ships.

Now here is where...it appears to be an issue. The PDF Advanced Missions and the 50th Silver PDF edition do not say that at all. Instead they say this.
(S8.35) SCOUTS: There can be no more than one scout in the free
scout slot (S8.25). Any ship with a diamond symbol ◆ on the Master
Ship Chart is a scout; however, some special sub-types of scouts are
handled otherwise by (S8.0). See (S8.365) for the Kzinti SSCS. See
(S8.55) for Police Flagships. See (S8.47) for drone bombardment
ships.

Which makes no reference at all to the number of scouts in the fleet itself. Also researching the scout rules. 8.25. No mention of numbers. Other areas of ships limited for various reasons. No mention of number of scouts. Specific mentions of of a number of ships that cannot have more than a certain number. But scouts? Not a one.

Then we look at the PFT addition comments.

(S8.351) One PFT or a survey ship could be used in addition to the
one allowed scout.

So out of all the scout requirement rules. The only rule we find discussing number of allowed scouts since 8.35 was changed...is a vague out of place reference to some supposed limit to the number of scouts. Is this limit set because of the rule it is under...which means it deals with only the addition of an extra scout like ship? Or is it so out of place that somehow unlike every other limiting rule...it is not anywhere near where the rules make it obvious, sorry only one BCH allowed. Or only one PFT so forth so on.

So I have tried to find anywhere else a rule that says specifically. Scouts in a fleet are limited to 1 and only one....except when you go over command limits. and Then low and behold you can only then add a scout not only without penalty but get it as a free slot and not in anyway having to be under command limits.

So...the rule changes...which went from one scout is all you can have. Clearly stated. But in a very strange place for it. To one scout in the free slot is all you can add. And then the PFT reference to one scout. But again. Not having anything to do with where it should be. The position and location of it, should be strictly applied to adding a PFT to fit into the role of the free scout slot since...that is exactly where it is.

Now I know....everyone is going to jump on me and say this is the way we have always done it. But...where is the rule...that actually says this is the way to do it. Now that all the PDFs no longer have that phrase in them? Is the additional words the error? Since it was not actually where it should have been...as in under scouts or ship limits. Or was the original the error which was always supposed to simply be defining that scouts can be the only type ship added for free?

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, December 10, 2020 - 09:35 pm: Edit

I will try to state the issue much more simply (well, according to the way I'm looking at it, anyway):

Question S8.25 and S8.35. In a pick-up SFB game subject to the S8.0 rules, how many total "normal" scouts are allowed in a fleet? Please exclude, for purposes of this question, the exceptions (PFTs, DB ships, etc.)

Thanks!

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Thursday, December 10, 2020 - 10:47 pm: Edit

There was a update to S8.0 in Captain's Log #40:

(S8.25) SCOUTS: One scout does not count against the command limits. If this one scout is also a carrier or PFT, its fighters and/or PFs will count against the command limit as independent squadrons/flotillas (S8.23). Drone bombardment ships with scout sensors are scouts and one could be used for the “free scout” slot, but drone bombardment ships do not count against the overall limit on scouts in (S8.35) and are instead counted against the limits of (S8.47).

I believe there is a PDF for download S8_Update_CL40.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Thursday, December 10, 2020 - 11:30 pm: Edit

The issue Ken is while your statement is as the rules even now say. There is no statement in the rules specifically stating how many scouts a fleet can have that is under the command limit. I have a DN it has the escorts it needs. So 4 ships. I have the rest of the fleet as scouts? If not...where does it say I cannot?

By Peter DiMitri (Pdimitri) on Friday, December 11, 2020 - 01:19 am: Edit

SPP:

Urgent question.

M5.20 specifies that captor mines can be controlled by a base.

Can an agro station or mining station (or other ground bases) control captor mines?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, December 11, 2020 - 01:58 pm: Edit

Peter DiMitri:

Yes, ground bases can control captor mines.

Charles H. Carroll:

You can have one (1) scout. That is a ship designated as a SCOUT (a Gorn SC is for example a Scout, a Kzinti Scout Drone Frigate is a Scout, a Federation Scout is a Scout). But there are other units which have scout channels. Of these, you can have one (1) PFT tender with scout channels in addition to the scout, or you could have one survey ship in addition to the scout, but not both a survey ship and a PFT (why it says "or"). Note that if you are taking drone bombardment ships with special sensors, they do not count as Scouts, but are required to have consorts and are limited (if memory serves, I am not looking it up) limited to three in the fleet.

John Christiansen:

I would follow the rule (using it as a guideline) for the three spirals, and limit them to a maximum strength of a second layer of web in a wedding cake at start. The rules in (G10.8) allow you to have weaker web at start, but not stronger web, and I would apply that whether you reduce the length of the spirals or not.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, December 11, 2020 - 02:00 pm: Edit

Peter DiMitri:

To be clear, there was a scenario published in which the ISC was being ambushed in a minefield, and as part of that a small ground base had to be added to the scenario to control mines.

By Peter DiMitri (Pdimitri) on Friday, December 11, 2020 - 02:00 pm: Edit

SPP:

Thank you!

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Friday, December 11, 2020 - 02:59 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick

My point though, was that while you state what can be. There is no longer really a rule saying that you can have one scout.

There was such a rule even if it was misplaced from where it should be. As in S8.35. But then the updated books killed that rule. It went from you can have one scout.

To you can have one scout in the special free slot.

So where now...is there a rule saying you can only...have one scout ever in a fleet. Except for the special free slot spot.

All other limited ships under the limit section explains right there...in that section what their limit as far as numbers are. Scouts right there say...nothing.

The one semi vague PFT comment implies that either, you can have a scout and a PFT. Or maybe if you have a PFT you could have a second PFT if you call it a scout. Or if you have a PFT you could now add a scout in the special slot. In general it all revolves around the special slot.

Before the rule changes to PDF. S8.35 said you could have one scout in a fleet. (which was all there was. so PERIOD.) just one scout. The changes took that out. So where? Is the rule?

Chuck

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Friday, December 11, 2020 - 09:05 pm: Edit

Charles I agree thee seems to be no rule saying you can have only 1 scout. There are rules for how many PFTs and Drone bombardment ships. As well as rules for placing the PFTs and carrier scouts in the free scout slot. Now that is how I see the rules... like You say I/We could be missing something.

However by command limits you can have only 1 free scout. That is under the command limits. A HC has 8 command. Thus it controls a battle group of 3 war cruisers and 3 war destroyers for command limit of 5 ships. 2 more HCs and a Drone bombardment CA. 8 ships total for command limits.
Then has a WC scout in the free scout slot.

This gives 1 scout plus the DB. Now how I read the rules as written I could drop a War destroyer and put a war destroyer scout in the battle group. I could even drop a CA for a scout.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Saturday, December 12, 2020 - 05:20 am: Edit

Captain Advanced Missions rule book,
Scouts
(S8.35): There can be no more than one scout.
and (S8.351), (S8.352), (S8.354).

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, December 12, 2020 - 11:13 am: Edit

Charles look under the Starfleet master index. There is a update for

S8 Patrol Scenario Rules for SFB. It says there

(S8.35) SCOUTS: There can be no more than one scout. Any ship
with a diamond symbol on the Master Ship Chart is a scout;
however, some special sub-types of scouts are handled otherwise by
(S8.0). See (S8.365) for the Kzinti SSCS. See (S8.55) for Police

The 2012 Master Rulebook says,

(S8.35) SCOUTS: There can be no more than one scout in the free
scout slot (S8.25). Any ship with a diamond symbol ◆ on the Master
Ship Chart is a scout; however, some special sub-types of scouts are


The difference is the reference to the free scout slot.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Saturday, December 12, 2020 - 05:11 pm: Edit

And that's the simple issue Wayne. Sure the OLD rules said that. Then that line was replaced in the 2012 and 50th Anniversary Edition. Now that rule says you can only have one scout in the free scout slot.

So...is there an actual 1 scout rule? Nope.

Not that I can see.