Archive through May 16, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Proposals Board: The "X" Files: OLD X2 FOLDER: X2 photons: Archive through May 16, 2003
By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 09:21 pm: Edit

The vanilla fed DN has only 8 phaser 1's.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 09:28 pm: Edit

That's what I'm referring to as the YDN.

The 8-P1, 4-photon DN

Any DN later than that one has 6 photons and can can muster a max 96-points of photon damage.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 09:37 pm: Edit

No we are both wrong.

I just looked at the SSD.

The Federation DN has 10Ph-1s and 4 Photons.

2 FH Ph-1s
2 LF+L Ph-1s
2 RF+R Ph-1s
2 360 degree Ph-1s
2 RA Ph-1s

4 FA Photons

And all for the price of a BCH (180 BPV).

By Mark James Hugh Norman (Mnorman) on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 03:47 am: Edit

John and MJC: The Fed YDN has 8 P2 and 2 Photons.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 06:55 am: Edit

Unfortunately we are talking about the Fed DN which is an MY ship.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 02:14 pm: Edit

I was wrong in my terminology. Thanks for setting me straight.

I did mean to say "every Fed DN after the basic DN..."

...could pump out a potential 96 points of photon damage. 4x 24-point photon is not a game-breaking base-buster. Especially when you toss in P-8's on the base-side of the equation.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 09:11 pm: Edit

That's about the size of it.

Hey I wonder If X2 base mounted Special Sensors can generate 8 EW on top of the 8 Generated by it'self.
Subtract out 8 for the enemy and 6 loaned for the enemy and you get a defensive ship that could go a long way to protecting bases.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 04:40 pm: Edit

That would inevitably set up a push to make all Special sensors generate 8 points of EW.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 12:59 am: Edit

I can't wait for X2 to get published...I'm leady thinking of Term Papers for X2 ships.

They this one on for size.


The Psuedo R12 overload.
When playing a Fed, consider arming up 12 point standard every turn and firing them in a narrow volloy at Range 12. If the narrow volley misses just turn away and rearm.
If the narrow volley strikes, you do a full 48 points of damage to the enemy.
If you do it an impulse before the enemy doesn't move, then on the next impulse you'll be able to follow it up with Phaser-5 fire.
At that range your 6 bearing ( latter 9 bearing ) Ph-5s will do 12 ( or 18 ) points of damage for another good mizia result.
Then you just pull away at speed and never let the enemy into R8 of you.

If you're really going fast against the enemy you can be a few hex rows across and hit his shield #1 without getting run down, making the all but disengagement for the enemey vessel very difficult indeed.
Against PFs, Frigates and Advantaged EW opponents you'ld be best off useing those 12 pointers as Proxies for 6 points of damage per hit.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 10:38 pm: Edit

For anyone interested this is the Photon I'm proposing.


ADVANCED PHOTON TABLE
RANGE0-12-34-56-89-1011-1516-3031-40
HIT(STD)NA1-51-41-31-31-210
HIT(PROX)NANANANA1-51-41-31-2
HIT(OL)1-61-51-41-3NANANANA
DAMAGE(ALL)---------VARIES---------


16 Point max fast-load, 12 max standard-load, 20 point max over-load.

The ranges have typically increased by one hex per bracket and a new bracket (9-10) has been added. The range has been extended to fourty. Standards only have a chance to hit if a -1 or better can be achieved. The prox has a reasonable chance equal to the disruptor. If a -1 can be achieved it becomes a rather impressive weapon. A fleet could engage a target from R40 with an impressive effect. With this table I'm am still a bit reserved about 16 point fast-loads and 12 point standards. Might have to revert to X1 typical but still allow 20 point max OL.

Maximum Over-Load range for all heavy weapons (in my proposal) will remain at R8. This is for maximum compatibility.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 06:59 am: Edit

1) A Move away from the heavy hitting but increase in accurracy is bad for photon flavour.

2) An advatage at R5 & 3 isn't all that much a bonus considering the 20 point warhead is so weak compared to a 24 point photon.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 08:21 am: Edit

How is a 20 point warhead with 16 point fastloads a "move away" from heavy hitting? That would be the biggest photon ever published, save the conjectural "mega" photon. 80 points of photon damage in one shot certainly qualifies as heavy hitting to me.

The range advantages seem fair enough. Nothing too extravagant, but that increase will let the photon compete more fairly with the disruptor at R5 without changing the too-hit numbers for the entire column. It's worth playtesting, I think.

All that being said, I do like the 24 point ones better. My one concern is that players will rarely bother to arm their photons over two turns when they can fast load a 16 point one in one turn. I'd do it if I had time...say, when a scenario started, or during a lull in the fighting. But otherwise, I'm not sure it's worth waiting that long for the extra damage.

I may begin playing regularly again, and hope to start really testing some of this stuff. This proposal of Loren's and the one I put up some time back about the non-holdable, even energy cost 24 point overloads are two things I'd want to try for the 2X photon.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 11:58 am: Edit

The big deal with this photon is the twelve point standard. Combined with the R9-10 proximity advantage have a prox warhead at 6 each is big. Being able to score a fairly relyable 12 points at R30 is pretty impressive. At R30 the negative factors of a narrow salvo are minimized so it possible to touch some one with 24 points from a cruiser at R30. That's major. Certainly the retrograde is deadlier. It can really foul up someones approach plans, wich given the circumstances of the era, is exacly what the Feds would be looking for.
This Proximity set up plus 24 point warheads would be an uber weapon, IMO. I tried to scale it down. 20 is a start. It may have to be 18. But 20 is good for now.

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 01:19 pm: Edit

...Or standard photons drop to 10 points.

I'd prefer to not go below 20 with OL photons unless they're just too powerful by themselves at 20.

I tend to resist ideas that move the Fed toward being a sabredancer, which is why I wasn't thrilled with Tos' photon proposals a couple of months ago.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 01:22 pm: Edit

I have no objections, and think it's certainly worth playing out. I plan to, and will post results in the playtest thread once we do it.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 01:56 pm: Edit

John, those are options I'm open to. I finally decided of 12/20 because both are 4 points above thier respective counter parts. However, currently 8 is half of max OL so 10/20 sounds OK to me too. The problem with ten is that the loading sequence is skewed as 2+3.

Hmmm, but now that I look at it maybe that's a good thing.

Well, one or the other but 20 is the maximum for me. I've got a Fed XDD that with three photons and six Ph-V (lets average at 4.5 points) can drop 87 damage into you at R5. If my K-C7 did that I'd be pretty happy. A XDD going toe-to-toe with a GW-BCH is tough enough for me.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 02:43 pm: Edit

Thought about this. I think Loren is on the right track in respect of the damage levels the X2 photon should have. My only concern is, again, that 16 point fastloads pretty much mean there's no pressing reason to arm over two turns, and I don't think that's very photon-ish. So, how about this.

Change the photon from a base of 8 weapon to a base of 10. 10 point standards, 5 point proxies, 15 point max fastloads, and 20 point overloads. Use Loren's table, with one slight modification...give the standard a 1 in 6 chance to hit at point blank range. Here's an example table:

RANGE0-12-34-56-89-1112-1516-3031-40
HIT(STD)11-51-41-31-31-210
DAMAGE1010101010101010
HIT(PROX)NANANANA1-51-41-31-2
DAMAGE00005555
HIT(OL)1-61-51-41-3NANANANA
DAMAGE202020200000
}

Note: The overload damage chart is the max possible, though it would still be the usual variable damage.

The arming cost would increase, of course (five points for a 10 point standard). This would, IMHO, give the photon a damage boost without loosing the photon flavor, and would also still provide a good reason to wait on overloads rather than constantly fast loading.

Thoughts?

By John Trauger (Vorlonagent) on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 06:14 pm: Edit

I'm game.

I hold out the hope that we can push it to 24, but that's fine by me.

By Aaron Gimblet (Marcus) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 01:11 am: Edit

I just cant see why a XBoats 4 24pointers are a quantum leap over the 6 16 pointers on a BCJ(okay, they fast load, the XCA has more power, they dont shock, blah blah blah. But the BCJ is X0 and approx 200 BPV. The XCA is 300ish as I see it, and is, well, X2.)

By Geoff Conn (Talonz) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 04:26 am: Edit

Quantum torpedoes eh? ;)

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 08:03 am: Edit

Quote:

How is a 20 point warhead with 16 point fastloads a "move away" from heavy hitting? That would be the biggest photon ever published, save the conjectural "mega" photon. 80 points of photon damage in one shot certainly qualifies as heavy hitting to me.


HHHMMmmmm where to begin?

You throw around four 20 point photons that took you two turns to arm...you probably got hit by that X1 Klingon with six Disruptors on the off turn, but lets not talk about that.
You do 80 points of damage at R0 or 40 points of damage at R8...your Klingon opponent ( which is considerably cheaper than you ) is doing 60 points of damage to @ R0 and 30 @ R8.
This is only a 33% increase where as in the MY period the Feds had a 100% increase in damage over the Klingons.

It gets worse because how often will the 2 turn arming 20 pointer be made when one can build 16 pointers every turn!?!...the 16 pointer fastloads are generating 64 points at R0 every turn and 32 @ R8 and that's not exactly doing much better than the 60 and 30 of the six disruptors.

A 24 point Photon warhead with standard to hit numbers will be much more Fed like than a slightly increased To Hit and a weaker warhead strength weapon.

Everyone looses their minds when they think of a ship doing 96 points of damage...let a Kzinti CS tractor you...four type V drones later and you'll know that 96 points of damage isn't beyond the capasitites of X2!


Quote:

The big deal with this photon is the twelve point standard. Combined with the R9-10 proximity advantage have a prox warhead at 6 each is big.


Yes and No.
If you're within R15 you can Fastload those warheads but outside, you'll have to take two turns...that means:-
6 UIM Disruptors at R16 will inflict ( 6 x 4/6 x 2 ) 8 points of damage.
Alternating pairs of four 12 pointers as proxies at R16 is doing ( 4 x 3/6 x 6 x 1/2) 6 points.

Fastloaded R12 Proxies are nice but since the Feds must pay in warp the Klingon should be able to find a way to counter fire.

Even with a new and improved 1-5 your ( 5/6 x 4 x 6 ) 20 average points of damage at R10, cost you 24 points of power to summon ( all warp ) giving the Klignons a pretty good shot as smashing you at overload range.
What with 15 ( 25 after the refit ) points of BTTY and Caps to SSReo and cruisers jumping up to 50 boxes on the shield #1, the 20 points of damage you can do isn't worth all that much.


Quote:

The problem with ten is that the loading sequence is skewed as 2+3.


Or 2.5+2.5


Quote:

Well, one or the other but 20 is the maximum for me. I've got a Fed XDD that with three photons and six Ph-V (lets average at 4.5 points) can drop 87 damage into you at R5. If my K-C7 did that I'd be pretty happy. A XDD going toe-to-toe with a GW-BCH is tough enough for me.


What's the Klingon X2 D5 enemy going to chucking at it!?!

You'll do about 5 points of damage at R5 with Ph-5s BTW.

At R5 the Klingon equivalent ship will be hurling back ( we'll just say intergrated UIM rather than +2 UIM ) four OL Disruptor shots and ( a General Oblique ) 8Ph-1 shots ( a Perfect Oblique would make that 9 ) so the Klingon enemy who BTW has a much better drone capasity than your Fed XDD will be chucking out ( 4 x 5/6 x 6 + 8 x 3.5 ) for 48 points of damage.
Against the Feds I don't know if you're talking about a fully refitted version or a centerlining unrefitted version but since the example above uses a unrefited Klingon and an Oblique that's what the Fed will have 4 Bearing Ph-5s and three Photons, would generate 20 points of phaser damage at R5 and either 2/3 times 3 times 20 for the new idea photons or 1/2 times 3 times 24 for the 24 pointers for either 40 or 36 points of photon damage for again, 60 and 56 points of damage respectively...now considering the Feds take two turns to arm the Photons this way, the advantages aren't all that great for the Feds and the Feds have lower numbers of Drones.

60 Vs 48 and 56 Vs 48 and we think the Photon needs to be watered down!?!...indeed.


Ask yourself what a Fed BCJ can do at R5.


Quote:

The arming cost would increase, of course (five points for a 10 point standard). This would, IMHO, give the photon a damage boost without loosing the photon flavor, and would also still provide a good reason to wait on overloads rather than constantly fast loading.

Thoughts?


Pushing 15 to 20 is only marginally more worth while than pushing 16 to 20.


Quote:

I hold out the hope that we can push it to 24, but that's fine by me.


Dito


Quote:

I just cant see why a XBoats 4 24pointers are a quantum leap over the 6 16 pointers on a BCJ(okay, they fast load, the XCA has more power, they dont shock, blah blah blah. But the BCJ is X0 and approx 200 BPV. The XCA is 300ish as I see it, and is, well, X2.)


Amen Brother!

By Andrew Harding (Warlock) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 09:20 am: Edit

Given that X1 plasma cruisers lug around a 70 point direct fire alpha, keeping X2 Feds at just 64 seems a tad low to me as well.

By Mike Raper (Raperm) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 09:23 am: Edit

Agreed, but we're not talking about 64. The issue is 20 point overloads, for 80 points.

By Mark James Hugh Norman (Mnorman) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 09:28 am: Edit

Andrew: How often do plasmas hit in direct fire. Also note that plasmas fire once every 3 turns, while photons fire once every 2 turns, so for perfect balance the plasmas should do 1.5 time the damage of the photons. Of course, this is not entirely fair on the plasmas as their bolt does not quite represent the full equivalent of their seeking weapon capability.

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Friday, May 16, 2003 - 10:21 am: Edit

Mark:

1X Plasma can be Fully loaded in 2 Turns. And loaded as an F EVERY turn.

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