Archive through December 18, 2020
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: SFB Tournament Zone:
Tactics Discussion:
Archive through December 18, 2020
The Frax looks fine; I mean, it may be pretty good with the wide arcs and so on but it isn't anything terrifying. It's probably a lot like a 1-1 WYN Shark I guess? Except forget everything you know about which shields ships want to fight out of.
There appears to be a playtest Carnivon TCC in SFBOL, but it isn't on the list as a tile to drop so I can look at the SSD with "add a piece", it's only on the list of tournament ships when you start a new game. So I need to start two instances to get a look at it.
As for this game: As tough as the weasels were, I think the ISC probably wants to go fast in this matchup; it has a power advantage over a Klingon (if the Klingon has OLDS) and therefore preferential movement if it wants it.
The Schirmer stats (Aces or Proles, take your pick) give the ISC almost 60-40 in this matchup (57% in both docs), but that isn't how it feels flying. I'm not a really strong player (and I think that the stronger the players, the better off the ISC probably is), but I didn't feel like the Klingon's systems were giving me a static disadvantage.
>>I can't seem to find a Carnivon TCC.>>
I'm pretty sure there is some sort of unsanctioned, totally home made, ballpark reasonable playtest Carnivon TC on SFBOL somewhere. The Carnivon ship is going to be very difficult to balance in tournament play on the grounds that:
A) The deathbolts are kind of nuts and "modular" so someone needs to decide what kind of deathbolts are reasonable for tournament play.
B) The deathbolt reloading rules are *incredibly* arcane and involve a deep level knowledge of deck crew actions, which otherwise don't come up in tournament play much, and require rules on moving deck crews around the ship and how many deck crews you have is super important to the use of deathbolts.
C) The absurdly named "heel nipper" is basically an instant death weapon in a duel--get to R1, launch deathbolts that move next impulse, fire the heel nipper and if it hits your opponent likely explodes. Which, again, leads to a lot of balance questions on a closed map.
>>Frax TCC is on the ADB Website and has weapons I recognize. I don't know what Carnivons have and don't see it in my rulebook (the Silver Ed. compendium) so that might be a little harder.>>
The FRAX has been around as an official playtest ship for decades; as a straight forward, what, 4xDisr (FX/RX), 8xP1 (FX/RX), 4xP3 (one in each corner), 2 drone racks ship, it is totally reasonable (i.e. it doesn't have the AFD in tournament play), it is in no way unreasonable. The problem with it more than anything is it is almost exactly the same as the Black Shark, but is just worse--the Shark can have the exact same armament, but with 1 more, better arc P3, or can be just better with 4 drone racks. And also has double shuttle bays. Yeah, the FRAX has the wacky arcs and, IIRC, one extra power (39, I'm pretty sure), but the Shark is gonna win out any time you have to choose between the two. The wacky arc game is never gonna make up for the trading 2xP1s for 2 drone racks, the extra P3, and the general robustness of the Shark.
Peter, can please elaborate on C)? I'm not exactly sure I follow your line of reasoning.
The Heel Nipper will:
1) Make you lose 1 Warp
2) Make you lose your Next Scheduled Movement
3) Force you to Involuntarily Turn
A Typical Death Bolt will score 30 Points of Damage if it hits. However, there are some things to keep in mind.
1) 10 Points of Phaser Damage will destroy the Death Bolt
2) A Type-I Drone will destroy a Death Bolt
3) Anti-Drones score Double Damage against a Death Bolt
4) The Carnivon will probably only have 1 Death Bolt on the map at any given time.
5) Death Bolts are Inaccurate and there is a Chart to determine which Random Shield is Struck. So it may not be the Shield you were Hoping for.
Given this info, I am confused by your Statement: "The absurdly named "heel nipper" is basically an instant death weapon in a duel--get to R1, launch deathbolts that move next impulse, fire the heel nipper and if it hits your opponent likely explodes."
The Heel Nipper by itself will not destroy the Enemy Ship. Let's assume the worst in that the Enemy Ship has been forced to Turn in a Awkward Direction and Lost its Next Scheduled Move.
Now let's assume a Single Death Bolt strikes it on a Shield that is Undesired. That is only 30 Points of Damage, not enough to "Destroy the Enemy Ship or make it Explode." And this doesn't account for the possibility that the Enemy Ship might just use Defensive Fire to score 10 Points of Damage, shooting the Death Bolt down. Even if you assume that Two Death Bolts strike, that is still only 60 Points of Damage, which if you subtract a Shield from, is not enough Internals to Demolish the Enemy Ship (Wound it, yes, but Completely Eliminate It, doubtful).
I would agree that the Deck Crew Rules are Overly Complicated, although they do add Depth to the Death Bolts for those Players willing to use them. And yes, the Modularity of the Death Bolts is a problem for Tournament Play.
If the Frax is a Worse Ship (even with Better Arcs and 1 more Point of Power) than the Black Shark, then your assessment is correct. However, that assumes Both Players are Equal in Skill. If the Black Shark is flown by someone Not So Experienced or who just flat out Makes a Mistake, then the Frax can still Win. In other words, all the Internal Designs on the SSD do not automatically Guarantee Success (which I know you already know, but just wanted to reiterate).
Finally, in regards to the "absurdly named "heel nipper"", isn't it possible that the Dog Men Engineers have a Strong Sense of Humor? 
Normn wrote:
>>Peter, can please elaborate on C)? I'm not exactly sure I follow your line of reasoning.>>
The heel nipper results in a free, automatic anchor, essentially. You get to R1. You launch whatever death bolts you are capable of launching and move the next impulse. You use the heel nipper. If it hits, your opponent does not move the next impulse, regardless of their speed. If they don't have, what, 3 phasers per deathbolt available, the deathbolts hit and kill you. No. They don't automatically kill you (neither does the heel nipper). But generally speaking, in tournament play, if a couple heavy drones hit you? Your game is over. And deathbolts are bigger then heavy drones.
>>1) 10 Points of Phaser Damage will destroy the Death Bolt>>
Yes. This is basically 3 phasers per deathbolt. If the ship can launch 2 (which may or may not be the case), you need to have upwards of 6 phasers available to avoid instant death.
>>2) A Type-I Drone will destroy a Death Bolt>>
You can't launch type I drones as a deathbolt that is launched at a range of 1 hex and will hit you the next impulse 'cause you aren't moving due to the heel nipper.
>>3) Anti-Drones score Double Damage against a Death Bolt>>
So the Klingon has a 33% chance of hitting a single deathbolt and then, what, a 33% chance of killing it. That isn't helping the situation.
>>4) The Carnivon will probably only have 1 Death Bolt on the map at any given time.>>
As noted, it is unclear at press time what the launch rate is for deathbolts. IIRC, the carnivon is capable of launching 2 of them at some point.
>>5) Death Bolts are Inaccurate and there is a Chart to determine which Random Shield is Struck. So it may not be the Shield you were Hoping for.>>
I'm pretty sure it isn't random, but based on "leading" and "following" rules.
>>Given this info, I am confused by your Statement: "The absurdly named "heel nipper" is basically an instant death weapon in a duel--get to R1, launch deathbolts that move next impulse, fire the heel nipper and if it hits your opponent likely explodes.">>
It is slight hyperbole that suggests that the interaction of the heel nipper and deathbolts will make it very difficult to balance the Carnivon ship on a closed map using the tournament rules set.
Ah, now I see your Logic. The Comparison between a Free Anchor and Heel Nipper+Death Bolts makes Sense. Given all these conditions, you are Correct.
From a Tactical Standpoint, it seems to me that the Player Opposing the Carnivon should do Everything Possible to Avoid this Situation.
1) Stay away from R1. Don't let the Carnivon get to R1 (which is easier said than done).
2) Have Multiple Phasers ready to shoot down Death Bolts
3) Have a HET prepared (or Warp Tactical Maneuver)
"(E24.312) Heel nippers do not affect reserve power, so
reserve warp power could be used by a target to execute a
high energy turn or a warp tactical maneuver on the impulse
following a heel nipper hit."
4) Keep your Speed Up to Avoid the R1 Heel Nipper+Death Bolts Combo
5) Use Tractors
6) Blast the Carnivon with an Alpha Strike BEFORE he gets to R1. In other words, make him Pay for getting that Close.
You are correct that Death Bolts are not Random, but use "Lead, Normal, and Follow" Designations. My referal to randomness was based on the fact that you cannot accurately predict Exactly Which Shield the Death Bolt will strike, especially if the Heel Nipper forces the target to Involuntarily Turn. This is because normally, the target is moving, turning, and sideslipping during the turn, so you don't know which Shield the Death Bolt will hit (when you designate Lead, Normal, or Follow). Of course, if the target is Stationary or Barely Moving, with its Shields stuck in a Predictable Facing, then that's different.
In terms of Fixing this deadly Heel Nipper+Death Bolts Combo, I'm not sure what can be done. Death Bolts are meant to be a Really Big Missile (similar to a Tachyon Missile). That means it's going to do a Lot of Damage and take More Damage to Destroy than a Typical Type-I Drone. There should be nothing wrong with this Design.
So it seems the problem lies with the Heel Nipper. The First Thing that comes to mind for me in order to Balance the Heel Nipper for Tournament Play is to Remove the part where it causes the target to Lose their Next Scheduled Move. This would prevent the "Free Automatic Anchor" and allow the target ship to move away and have more time to deal with the approaching Death Bolt(s). The target ship will still lose 1 Warp and be forced to Involuntarily Turn (assuming the Heel Nipper successfully hits).
Ah well, this analysis into Carnivon TCC Tactics is Insightful and Thought-Provoking. The Carnivons may well play out much differently in Fleet Battles vs Tournament Duels. It may be that the Carnivon TCC just can't be fixed, meaning the "Free Automatic Anchor" will Always Work, no matter what you try to do, as a Designer and Player, to Fix It.
Thanks for Sharing your Experience and Thoughts, Peter.
Norman wrote:
>>From a Tactical Standpoint, it seems to me that the Player Opposing the Carnivon should do Everything Possible to Avoid this Situation.>>
Sure. My point is simply that balancing the Carnivon in tournament play with the tournament rules is likely to be difficult to do.
>>Thanks for Sharing your Experience and Thoughts, Peter.>>
Oh, sure. I'm not, like, trying to suggest that this ship is impossible to make work. But it likely has a significant hurdle to clear to get it balanced in the tournament environment, most of which revolves around the heel nipper, but given that the Powers That Be tend to be super reluctant to invent special rules for tournament play (that are significantly different than regular play), it will probably be rough to fix.
bribe spp with chocolate
Note as a Plasma player I would love a Heel Nipper. How often does a player escape from a plasma launch at close range. If I could just freeze that ship for 1 impulse it dies.
There are tactics for every ship. You might look at the Disrupter cannons a two turn firing disrupter. That does double a normal disrupter.
The death bolts are easy to evade. The Heel nipper makes it easier for them to hit.
I'm not done forever with the ISC, I just wanted a break. Carnivons were a favorite "new" race in my group a few years back, so I thought I would take it up.
As yet, I have been unable to open the SSD in SFBOL, but I can see there is one there.
If the SSD is in the Tournament file on SFBOL, you should be able to open SFBOL in "authenticated" mode (i.e. off line), start a room, pick the ship you want to look at, and then start the game, and you'll see the SSD. IIRC, the Carnivon SSD is a 3rd Gen SSD (i.e. in color with numbers instead of boxes).
I don't think the Carnivons are sanctioned for tournament play if there actually is a Carnivon tournament ship out there online. If you plan to play tournaments wanted to make sure you knew.
It is not at all sanctioned, and not even an official playtest.
There is a home made Carnivon TC somewhere on SFBOL (as noted above). But still, totally unofficial. And likely very sketchy.
Heh, since I'm the guinea pig here, I'm actually not nearly as worried about how balanced the Carnivon "TCC" is as the fact that I don't actually own a copy of the rules for the Carnivons at all to know how they work... I've got the basic set, advanced missions and the collected Silver Edition binder that has everything (I thought!) together, but it doesn't have Death Bolts.
Playing against better ships is fine (I used to play the TKE regularly), but mystery ships are hard.
Anyway, we'll figure it out tonight one way or another. I'm flying the Hydran for only the second time in my life, so it could be comical.
Currently looking at Carnivon SSD on SFBOL Tournament game (I started in authenticated mode, so the game will load with 1 player).
Standard shields, breakdown, batteries; Turn Mode C.
39 power (30/3/6); 4xFA Disruptor Cannon (exactly a double disruptor--same power but 2 turns for twice damage; I *think* you can hold them, but not completely sure); 4xP1 (FA/L/R), 2xP2 (RX), 5xP3 (RX); 2xFA Heel Nippers; 2x Death Bolt racks.
Don't have the Death Bolt rules nearby (they aren't in the MRB), but they are 10 damage, 30 warhead, speed 20 (from the SSD notes). I don't remember if you only can launch 1 per turn or not (I'm probably conflating Death Bolts and Tachyon Missile rules in my head, as they are similar things). I do remember that the reload rules are convoluted and require deck crew actions and weird timing (i.e. you can start reloading them the impulse after you launch them like fighters or something, so the time you can launch another death bolt from a given rack is based on some kind of 32 impulse count from when you start reloading them, unless you use 2 deck crews, which might speed it up?).
Disruptor Cannons cannot be Held, but can use a Rolling Delay.
PREPARING DEATH BOLTS
(FD20.20) REQUIREMENT: Each death bolt must be
“prepared” prior to being launched. Preparation requires one
“deck crew action” (J4.817) to move a death bolt from ready
use to the launch rack. This deck crew action can begin at
any time in a given turn, but must be recorded (J4.8175).
(FD20.201) Two deck crews can work on one death bolt and
combine their activities. It does not require energy to prepare
a death bolt.
Also, Peter, you said, "the Powers That Be tend to be super reluctant to invent special rules for tournament play (that are significantly different than regular play)"
But IIRC didn't the IPG get modified with some Special Rules?
(FD20.21) LIMIT: A given death bolt rack may have no more
than one death bolt prepared for launch (or in any stage of
preparation) at any given time.
Norman wrote:
>>Disruptor Cannons cannot be Held, but can use a Rolling Delay.>>
Helpful; thanks!
>>(FD20.20) REQUIREMENT: Each death bolt must be
“prepared” prior to being launched. Preparation requires one
“deck crew action” (J4.817) to move a death bolt from ready
use to the launch rack. This deck crew action can begin at
any time in a given turn, but must be recorded (J4.8175).>>
Ok, so my memory was correct; you launch the death bolt, and on the next impulse, you can immediately start "rearming" the death bolt with a deck crew action, so if you have 1 deck crew to work, and you launch a death bolt on impulse 8 of turn 2, you can launch your next death bolt on impulse 9 of turn 3 (as you can start the DC action on impulse 9 of turn 2). If you have 2 deck crews to work, you will be done with the deck crew action by impulse 25 of turn 2, but I don't think the death bolt rack can launch more than 1 death bolt in a turn, so you'd have to wait till impulse 1 of turn 3 at earliest?
>>But IIRC didn't the IPG get modified with some Special Rules?>>
Not really? It just can't use the EW mode (well, at press time) as ships can't generate EW in tournament play. So not really a special rule so much as "the tournament doesn't permit that particular function to have an effect". But the Vudar is specifically still a playtest ship and hasn't be sanctioned as an official TC in a decade.
So back to the death bolts, if the TC has 2 deck crews available, it can effective launch a death bolt from each rack once every 32 impulses. And I suspect it can launch 2 at one time (i.e. there doesn't seem to be a "only one death bolt per 2 racks per turn" like old drone racks or tachyon missiles, which I'm probably still conflating in my head with death bolts). So the Carnivon *can* launch a couple death bolts early for someone to deal with, rearm the death bolts, get to R1, launch 2 death bolts, fire the heel nipper so the target misses its next move, and this is gonna make a huge mess (and there are also the disruptor cannons...). Again, this isn't instant death. But it is *very* potent and likely something that would need to be managed carefully for this ship to work in the tournament environment.
Now that I'm thinking about it, I'm pretty sure that I wrote a Tactical Note about death bolt launch rates (that, to be fair, wasn't really a tactic so much as an explanation as to how the rules work) pointing out that you could theoretically launch 2 death bolts from a given rack in a single turn if you doubled up deck crew actions (and had lots of deck crews)--launch a death bolt from rack A on impulse 1, have 2 deck crews prepare a new death bolt starting on impulse 2, launch a second death bolt from rack A on impulse 18. Which I'm pretty sure is legal, as IIRC, there is no restriction on launching more than 1 death bolt from a particular rack per turn.
Which results in the number of deck crews a Carnivon ship has access to being very important; all ships come with a default 2 deck crews, so on a tournament ship, the best you could do is launch 2 death bolts on impulse 1 of a turn, have 2 deck crews reload a new death bolt in one of the racks in time to launch a 3rd death bolt on impulse 18, and then start reloading both racks normally in time to launch 2 more on impulse 19 of the next turn. But there might be some delay on moving deck crews from rack to rack I'm glossing over.
But in non tournament play, if you can get extra deck crews as Commander's Options, or are on a carrier/escort, you can double up deck crews and launch 2 death bolts per turn a lot of the time.
AH HA! You have OPENLY ADMITTED to having something against GECKO REPTILES (stalling our progress for over a decade)!
FIRE ALL ION CANNONS AT THAT GORN BATTLECRUISER!!!!!
Ahem. Yes!
Peter Bakija:
Note #2 under Crew and Marines of Annex #6: "Non-carriers and casual carriers (J4.62) cannot purchase extra deck crews (ony Romulans have fighters in the Early Years and only they can purchase extra deck crews).
Carnivon non carrier ships cannot purchase extra deck crews.
Ah, ok, thanks! I had mis-remembered that you could buy extra deck crews as Commander's Options for non carriers.
So unless you are a Carnivon carrier or escort, you are limited by having 2 deck crews; in tournament play, you always are limited by having 2 deck crews.
Lee and I did have our (Fifth!) game on Wednesday; it was a little short and one of my children knew I had finished and told everyone I could come to dinner... so an immediate rematch was unfortunately not in the cards.
Putraack (Frax) vs. SummaryJudgment (Hydran)
I hadn't really played the Hydran before, but I have read some things about it and played against it a lot as it is Trent's main tournament ship. I had an idea what I wanted to do: Overload the bores, leaving fusions empty, and push my movement to the end of turn so that I would have as much chance as possible of an impulse 1 fusion overload shot.
This kind of worked out. I allocated 19 moves 13/25/26, moving on all of the impulses at end of turn, and two tractor, to recall fighters after they fired.
We both approached, moving more or less up the map, with a few slips in from me and a couple of slips out from him. At some point he turned in and sped up to 28, but because I also accelerated, he didn't cross in front of me, we were on a collision course. Worse, at speed 28 he couldn't turn again until Impulse 32.
So we rapidly approached (my fighters falling behind) and since he didn't fire, I just held fire and closed in, on the theory that this is what a Hydran wants to do anyway. On i32 I was able to turn in and guarantee Range 2, and we exchanged fire, 8 P1 and 4 OLDS against 2 OLHB, 5 P1 and the LS gatling. This resulted in 25 in after 3 allocated reinforcement on my #6 and 5 batteries (killing 4 (!) P1s, a fusion, and a Hellbore and 4 power) and two volleys of 16 and 26 (or something like that) to the Frax. Importantly, the Frax lost all the batteries.
So turn 2 EA was fairly easy, because I decided to gamble given the Frax didn't have batteries. I threw the transmission into Park. OL the fusions, 2 in tractor (4 total effective at R2 with batteries). I started the HB, tossed 1 into the phaser cap for the 2nd Gatling, and figured if he got away, well, I could get another volley of internals when he next approached with the remaining HB, and I was guaranteed R2 OL fusions on i1 through the down shield at least.
On i1 he announced Speed 28, and I got him with the first point of energy. My OL fusions did 12 in, and his p3s did 8 in to the Hydran. On i2 I tacced to R2 front centerline, but held fire since he had drones and was launching shuttles, and I wanted to make absolutely sure I killed all his toys, because I had all turn to shoot his ship, and at least several more impulses to shoot his down #5, because at pseudo speed 14 his turn mode was not satisfied.
I waited for my fighters to come up, at which point he resigned (killing two drones and two probable SS with ship and fighter gatlings.) When my fighters got to R1 with unfired fusions, he conceded.
One hex further out (turn mode satisfied on 1i31, not 1i32 for instance) and the Frax is doing more internals than the Hydran, can't be tractored, and it's a game.
So your range 2 exchange was, what, #6 shield to #6 shield?
It seems like for the FRAX in a fight like this, the arcs could be problematic; if you ended up inside of his FA (i.e. more traditionally in front of his ship), he'd only have 2xOL and 4xP1 to shoot, and at speed 28, the turn mode seems like it might get in the way of a good firing opportunity (although the movement precedence certainly helps out, which is why I suspect the speed 28 happened).
While I am not a fan of just running up to someone and firing everything at point blank range, it seems like the best tactic for the Hydran. Still, the Hellbores might be useful at Mid-Range (outside of Knife Fighting but not Long Range).
Instead of leaving the Fighters behind, you could have held the Fighters until you had the Tractor Beam engaged.
Speed is an issue for the Hydran seeking to use all of its Fusions.
I agree with Peter about the Frax Arcs. But with FX/RX, the Frax should still be able to maximize firepower along the Oblique Lines.
Doesn't the Frax have access to a Scatterpack like the Klingon and Kzinti? If so, that could have been a deciding factor against the Hydran, depending on When it was employed.
What if the Frax countered the Tractor Beam with more energy to break free or prevent it?
Perhaps a HET could have helped the Frax, if only to turn a Damaged Shield away at Close Range?