The Hydran is my third favorite tournament ship. Kudos on your tactics!

Lee has now learned rule number 1 - "do not let the Hydran close to range 3 or less".

As a Hydran, my drone opponents from years past tend to approach to range 8, fire, turn, and run away to get behind the drones. The reason is to allow the speed 20 SP drones to catch up. Against the Hydran, the purpose of the drones is to use up phaser fire.

Had Lee guessed Graham's tactic, the Frax could have stayed out of range 8 on turn 1. The Hydran would be most embarrassed in having to discharge those OL HB. Then the Frax could charge (to no closer than range 5)!

There are many tactics for both ships - and they do not always work depending on the counter-tactic. That is the challenge!

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, December 18, 2020 - 11:59 am: Edit

The Frax, like a can't do a lot to you outside Range 8 either; I mean, he could have corner dodged, but I've still got fusions and phasers (and fighters) on turn two, and he'd have a lot less room to maneuver.

A Hydran is also entirely happy to trade fire at R8 (4 fighter fusions and 5 P1 to weaken a shield, followed by OLHBx2) and then have a disruptor ship "escape" behind drones. The drones are gatling food, so you just follow him and he can't turn to fight you again without getting too close (at least not easily).

[Against a Hydran, I've always shot fighters first with disruptors, as long as they are leading the ship, so I trailed them here.]

The Turn 1 exchange was on the hex row, Hydran #6 to Frax #5.

The Frax arcs were okay; he got all his guns pointed at me. The problem was that his moves were really predictable after he accelerated and turned. I knew he was stuck direction F until 32, so I could keep turn mode satisfied until then, when I thought I would get R2, and just turn to get him in FA (if necessary) and fire.

The Frax can't even make me even make more decisions by calling for fire a couple of times (R5, R4) and then not firing to try to get me to burn the bores early: until he yaws, he's only got 4 P1 and 2 disruptors, so I ignore him.

Note: We didn't think the Frax had a scatterpack, because it isn't on the SSD either on SFBOL or on the tournament page of starfleetgames. If the Frax has a scatterpack, that would have changed a lot. He did have heavy and fast drones.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, December 18, 2020 - 12:14 pm: Edit

The FRAX does not have a scatter pack. Only the Kzinti and Klingon have access to scatter packs in the tournament.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Friday, December 18, 2020 - 01:07 pm: Edit

Could the Frax really go speed 28 after t1? After 42 internals it doesn't seem likely he still had enough warp for that kind of speed. Maybe he did.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, December 18, 2020 - 01:08 pm: Edit

"Instead of leaving the Fighters behind, you could have held the Fighters until you had the Tractor Beam engaged."

I didn't mean to leave them behind, really; I was planning on slipping to keep them close, but then I saw that Range 2 was hard to avoid after he turned and I went for it. He could have yawed the other way i32 (which preserved his escape from fighters on t2) but then it's R1, my #1 to his #2, and I know he doesn't want R1 on a (presumably) down shield for OL or even Sui OL fusions on Turn 2 i1 (and he still has to stress about the beam).

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, December 18, 2020 - 01:14 pm: Edit

"Could the Frax really go speed 28 after t1? After 42 internals it doesn't seem likely he still had enough warp for that kind of speed. Maybe he did."

I didn't hit a lot of warp; I think he was down more power than I was, but not a lot more power; also he had a decel plotted to 14 almost immediately.

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Friday, December 18, 2020 - 01:20 pm: Edit

Ok. so the Three-Legged Trash Cans with Tentacles triumphed over...over the What? What exactly are the Frax? Sure, they are a Klingon Inspired Enemy in the Simulators, but what do they look like?

Do they all look like Evil Captain Kirks then??

By Lee Hanna (Lee) on Friday, December 18, 2020 - 09:15 pm: Edit

Evil Captain Kirk (fictional) here. I think that game was a case of target fixation on my part. I have fought and lost to Hydrans since they first appeared in the Expansion booklets, so I should have known better.

The Frax boat hadn't lost much power on the first exchange of shots, we both lost more weapons than power in that exchange.

I was kinda surprised that the fighters had trailed, I hoped to get out of their range on t2. Once again, I failed to foresee that I'd get tractored. Perhaps that's a bad habit from playing with the same group for years-- tractors rarely get used.
I really needed to shoot from further out and turn away. Maybe next game.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 12:24 pm: Edit

That is the thing about Hellbores, the "down shield" does not have to be facing in order to hit it.

The beautiful thing about the Hydran at range 8 is that 8 fusion beams (assuming the FTRS are with the ship) and the 5 P1's should take down a shield. The OLHB's will do internals if they hit. Of course the Frax can do this also with good disruptor rolls (1 - 4 to hit) and 8xP1. Never-the-less, the Hydran will always be able to hit the down shield on subsequent turns. The down side is that the Hydran will not have its heavy weapons for T2. The Frax will likely pursue to get an alpha shot off for T2. The danger is that this costs a lot of power (24), so the Frax will slow down greatly. The Hydran will in theory circle around and get to range 8 (or closer) by the end of the turn for another round of OLHB's. (That is one of my Hydran tactics.) Knowing Graham, he might charge to get those "mini-photon torpedos" into play. 16 pulses at range 2 would do the trick. Most players try to take out the FTRS for this reason.

I did not know that only the Kzinti and Klingon are allowed SP's in tournament play. It has been a while for me. I guess the Hydran would not be afraid of a 2 drone wave.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 01:11 pm: Edit

Important Tournament Drone Rules:

-Only the Kzinti and Klingons get scatter packs in the tournament.

-All drones are Type IM by default.

-All empires can trade 2xIM for 1xIVM twice (i.e. maximum of 2xIVM on a drone ship), except the Kzinti, who can do this 3 times.

-The Kzinti get 4 points for drone modifications, where making an M drone into an F drone costs .5; you can get extended range (.5 each) or I think extra drones (1.5 for a IM), but that rarely happens (and is only rarely a good idea). The Klingons get 2 points for this (and can spend .25 to change a VIM into a VIF). No one else gets drone modification points.

-There are no reloads and all racks are type B (unless they buy an extra reload drone, which might be possible; I don't honestly remember that one). The Kzinti and Klingon can unload drones from their SP to use as reloads. They can't unload drones from their racks to make another SP however.

Notably, the Shark, WYN, Orion with drone racks, and FRAX only have M speed drones ever and only only ever have a maximum of 2xIVM, and can't use scatter packs.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 01:18 pm: Edit

The way the Klingon kills the Hydran (I have executed this strategy against my son frequently including once about an hour ago) is to kill the fighters at R8 with disruptors, turn off and avoid R4 (or R2), take minor internals from the bores, and then chase down the Hydran on Turn 2 and deal more internals at R3-R4. If your scatterpack and rack drones occupy his gatlings, that's got to be good enough because that's all you're going to really get with the drones.

If you don't hit weapons on your 1-2 volleys in, you're probably dead when the bores come back, because the Hydran will do more internals than you will (to a fresh shield) on turn 3, and unlike almost ay other matchup, you don't dare get on top of him, even without fighters.

But if you get a bore, a fusion and a couple of phasers and then maybe another phaser on mizia, then it's a game, and I'm not unhappy being the Klingon there, because I have a lot more weapon hits to take.

The problem for a Frax is that this whole strategy depends on 1. Hitting with 4/4 (and please, please, at least 3/4 so that follow up phasers in the 6-8 bracket can finish the job) disruptors on turn one; and 2. controlling the range while in pursuit; neither of which things the Frax is as good at (No UIM, C turn mode, needs to yaw to get all its weapons in when chasing).

Obviously the Frax isn't forced to DO this, but what else? You can try what Lee did (crossing the Hydran's T to fire a broadside, then presumably running) but if they speed change at the wrong time (or just turn off after R8) you aren't really getting internals [Average damage is about 30-35 at R8 even with 4 OLs] his fighters live, and you have to get turned around to chase him on turn two.

[Also, thank you Peter, that's the best explanation of all that I've ever heard.]

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Sure!

Yeah, again, I'm unconvinced on the FRAX; the Shark does everything the FRAX does, but generally trades 2xP1 for 2xDrone Racks (which is probably a better trade) and much more robust ability to take internals (due to the crazy P3 arcs) and a dual shuttle bay for 1 power. Like, the wacky arcs are, in theory, a benefit, but they also sometimes result in things like making your initial main exchange out of your #5 shield, giving up 6 internals for limits benefit.

I dunno that the FRAX has that good of a situation against the Hydran. If I were using the FRAX against the Hydran, I'd very much be angling for a late turn R4 strike with 4xOL and 8xP1 when you can turn off and run for the rest of the turn to avoid fighters. Hopefully blow off a HB with the ensuing internals, make it to the end of the turn without getting pasted by the fighters, and then reallocate to run away and phaser down the fighters as they come to get you. I mean, it's not super easy to pull off, but I've certainly beaten the Hydran in a disruptor ship (Lyran and/or Shark?) like this.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 02:00 pm: Edit

I mean, sure, but the problem is then you are running away on Turn 2 when you'd really like to be taking advantage of the fact that Turn 2 is when you have heavy weapons and that Hydran doesn't. If the Frax have some crazy weapons system with an intimidating name (Death Bolt, Quantum Wave Torpedo, etc.) they need it on the tournament ship because the way it works now, it's just a D&D ship that you mostly wouldn't take over a Klingon or a Shark.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 02:07 pm: Edit

Well, yes. But again, that is mostly what D+D ships have against the Hydran--shooting it in the face at R4, blowing some weapons off, and then avoiding close range till next turn when it can adjust as appropriate.

Like, I don't think the FRAX is gonna be any *better* at this than anyone else. And probably worse. But if I was in a FRAX and fighting a Hydran, that's what I'd be trying to do :-)

Like, the Lyran has the ESGs (which help against pre-emptive hellbore shots) and the UIM so the R4 shot is more likely to be solid. And then the offside P1s for a potential follow up or early fighter killing. And the Shark has 2 more drone racks and general toughness and utility.

But yeah, if the point here is "The FRAX isn't really that good, and probably not ever worth taking over a KLI/ZIN/GBS", then yes! Agreed!

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 03:17 pm: Edit

What is the Rationale behind only the Kzinti and Klingon being able to launch Scatterpacks? That is a Powerful Advantage that I believe other empires using Drones should have.

It sounds like the Kzinti and Klingon are Deficient in some way, thereby needing the Scatterpack to make up for it. But we all know that is not the case. If an empire has Two Disruptors and Four Drone Racks (meaning they are Heavily Reliant on Drones), then I could see this Rule benefiting them. But if an empire has Four Disruptors and Two Drone Racks, and then has the benefit of being able to use a Scatterpack, where other empires with Two Drones Racks Cannot, this doesn't seem Fair (or Balancing).

You might answer:
1) Well, it's Always Been That Way or
2) That's how it was Printed in Module-T or
3) The Answer goes back to the R-Section and Background for the Kzinti and the Klingons (meaning the Answer is Historical)

But those aren't really Answers from a Design and Balance Perspective.

What is the Logic behind this Exlusionary Rule that only benefits the Kzinti and Klingon?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 03:40 pm: Edit

Norman wrote:
>>What is the Rationale behind only the Kzinti and Klingon being able to launch Scatterpacks? That is a Powerful Advantage that I believe other empires using Drones should have.>>

Game balance. When the tournament ships were designed originally (well, second originally), the Kzinti and Klingon were given scatter packs, and no other drone using races were, and then ships were balanced around that.

The Shark, for example, was specifically designed to be balanced without a scatter pack. And indications are that it is (the Shark is actually one of the strongest ships in the tournament, even without a scatter pack). If you just willy nilly allow the other drone using ships to use a scatter pack, you then need to rejigger all the balance of everything. Which seems like a terrible idea.

The Shark is a top tier ship without access to a scatter pack; the WYN AUX is a top tier ship without access to a scatter pack. The Orion rarely has enough drones to really count as a drone ship (I don't think I've ever seen an Orion with more than 2 drone racks), but it also does just fine without a scatter pack. Adding a scatter pack to any of these ships would likely make them way too good.

>>It sounds like the Kzinti and Klingon are Deficient in some way, thereby needing the Scatterpack to make up for it.>>

Well, no, they were just balanced to work with a scatter pack. So they work with a scatter pack, and have proved to not be too powerful with a scatter pack. Just like the Shark and WAX have proved to be perfectly solid without access to a scatter pack.

>>But those aren't really Answers from a Design and Balance Perspective.

What is the Logic behind this Exlusionary Rule that only benefits the Kzinti and Klingon?>>

That is how they are balanced.

If the issue here is "why doesn't the FRAX get a SP", well, the FRAX isn't a sanctioned, balanced ship, and has been in playtest for 2 decades without much progress. Is it possible that giving the FRAX a SP would make it viable? Sure. Maybe that could help. But no one has ever suggested that, or given it any significant trys. As, well, apparently no one is that interested in the FRAX being a sanctioned, official tournament ship. Which is fine, as they are already plenty of options for disruptors and drones.

But if the issue is "why do the Klingon and Kzinti get scatter packs and no one else does, that's not fair!", well, decades of collected tournament data suggest that, well, it is perfectly fair, as the Klingon and Kzinti do not seem remotely overbalanced with scatter packs, and the Shark/WAX/Orion don't seem remotely underbalanced without them.

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 03:47 pm: Edit

It's worth noting that on the Hydran TLM, the Four Fusion Beams are RF+R and LF+L. So in regards to "the Hydran at range 8 is that 8 fusion beams (assuming the FTRS are with the ship) and the 5 P1's should take down a shield", the opposing ship would have to be directly on a Spine, otherwise the Hydran (and its Two Fighters) would only have 6 Fusion Beams.

At R8, Standard Fusions will score an Average of 1-2 Points of Damage, while OL Fusions will score an Average of 1-3 Points of Damage. PH-1's at R8 will score an Average of 2-3 Points of Damage.

So on Good Rolls, the 5 PH-1's will score 15 Points of Damage. 8 Standard Fusions will score 16 Points of Damage, while Overloaded Fusions will score 24 Points of Damage. However, if only 6 Fusions are used, the Damage drops to 12 for Standard and 18 for Overload.

All in all, the Statement is True, assuming Good Rolls. At least 30 Points of Damage (roughly) would be scored at R8, which should collapse a Shield. But this is also assuming the enemy is directly facing the Hydron on a Spine.

The Enemy would then be Extremely Vulnerable to Ranged Attacks by Hellbores...

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 03:51 pm: Edit

Like, in a historical sense, the Original tournament ships were published in a middle issue of Nexus, and were more or less close to what many of the original 12 TCs were; that is where they got the standardized 30-30-24-24 shields, 5 batteries, 4 shuttles, 2 tractors each. The original Fed was a little nuts, with 2 drone racks in it, and demolished everyone in the first sanctioned big tournament (which is, I suspect, why there has been so much reluctance to adding a G-rack to the Fed all these years). The Tholian might not have existed; the Orion was vastly different; the Lyran was terrible. The use of scatter packs was in flux at this point; it is possible that no one got them originally, and then the Kzinti got one at some point, and them also maybe the Klingon.

Check, they messed around with those, and the second run of original 12 TCs were officially published in, IIRC, Captain's Log #6 (the B10 issue) in, like, 1988. Those original 12 (FED, KLI, RFH, ZIN, GRN, ORI, THN, HYD, LYR, ISC, WAX, AND) mostly are largely the same as they were as originally printed (the ORI got a couple extra P3s at some point; the THN got extra power; the HYD got an extra 360 P1; the LYR got the one shot UIM and the P3s moved to the 360 turret; the ISC lost 2P3, the WAX got option mount restrictions; the AND has been in constant flux for 20 years). And in that batch of original 12 ships in CL#6, the Klingon and Kzinti got scatter packs. And the WAX and Orion did not. And they all worked out fine.

A few years later (6? 8?) in the mid 90's, in a mid teens Captain's Log (possibly; it might have been the original Module T Tournament book where they showed up; possibly I'm conflating the upgraded version of the ATC that showed up in a CL), there was the original set of 6 expansion TCs (TKR, TKE, ATC, GBS, LDR, SEL?); they got messed with and tested for a while, and eventually got sanctioned after various tweaks and whatever. And of those, for example, the GBS was designed to not ever have a scatter pack, and did just fine without a scatter pack, and doesn't remotely need a scatter pack.

The FRAX was released as a playtest ship in the late 90's some time, but never apparently got seriously playtested. I've probably used he FRAX a few times as a lark, but again, as noted above, I don't know that the FRAX needs to get balanced or sanctioned, as between the KLI, ZIN, GBS, WAX, and LYR, we got enough disruptor/drone action.

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 03:52 pm: Edit

Who's being a "Willy Nilly"?? LOL!!

The logic makes sense, assuming all other Tournament Ships have been Balanced for Decades in this regard.

It's just strange. Let's say a New Player learns SFB and becomes quite proficient at using Scatterpacks in their Tactical Game.

Then they try Tournament Play, and they are told, "Oh, only the Klingon and Kzinti are allowed to use Scatterpacks."

Then the New Player forms a Frowny Face (without Understanding Why, but Accepts It Anyway).

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 03:54 pm: Edit

Nexus and 1988??

Boy, you are OLD!!!

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 03:57 pm: Edit

>>Who's being a "Willy Nilly"?? LOL!!>>

It was just a comical turn of phrase.

>>Then the New Player forms a Frowny Face (without Understanding Why, but Accepts It Anyway).>>

Sure. But if they want to use scatter packs? They can. Just be the Klingon or the Kzinti. The GBS, WAX, and ORI really don't need them. The FRAX might, but the FRAX is probably an evolutionary dead end, so best not to worry about.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 03:59 pm: Edit

Norman wrote:
>>Boy, you are OLD!!!>>

Indeed I am :-)

I wasn't playing tournament SFB when those ships were published in Nexus, but was reading Nexus at the time (I was in high school at that point); I got CL#6 when it came out with the original 12 TCs, used them a few times with friends, but didn't actually start playing tournament SFB till the early 90's; I went to Origins the first time in 1995 (Philly), got demolished, but at that point, the rules and ships were all pretty set.

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 04:07 pm: Edit

Excellent! Now we know Admiral Bakija's EXACT Age.

Home in on his Geographical Location and Beam Him Up.

Begin BRAIN EXTRACTION Immediately so that we will Forever WIN Tournament Play!!

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 04:11 pm: Edit

My concern is not so much about the other TCC's "doing fine" without a Scatterpack (meaning they have an Equal Chance of Winning or Losing, or so we are told).

But rather, my concern is that a Tactical Element has been removed from these other Drone Using Ships. Sure, they can use other Tactics with the Weaponry and Systems they have left, but they have lost a Vital Element that should be there (because you can always load a bunch of Drones on a Shuttle theoretically).

It's like Drawing Right Handed and Missing a Finger. Yes, you can do it, get used to it, and create wonderful drawings. But shouldn't that Finger be there...? Oh well, Such is Life.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, December 19, 2020 - 04:19 pm: Edit

Sure. But they also removed a tactical element from plasma ships, in that they don't get pseudo torps for F tubes (mostly; the TKE gets pseudo Fs but only has 3 tubes), which is losing a vital element that should be there. And the Fed, up until just recently, didn't have a drone rack like it normally would have. And the Kzinti can't get armored drones (I don't think I have played a non tournament game with Kzinti where I didn't have armored drones since they were published in a late Nexus in the 80's). And the Klingon can't get ECM drones (or benefit from EW at all). And the Orion can't have whatever option mounts it wants and a free ECM shift. These are all sacrifices made to make the tournament work.

And in the end, it's all for the best. As it works fine. If someone wants to use a SP? Be the Kzinti or Klingon :-)