This topic is ONLY for those who tried SFBOL, did not like it, and did not stick around.

We want to know why you didn't like it, and what Paul could do to improve the interface/client so that you (and lots of other new players) could join the fun. Jean's preliminary report is as follows:
Some who tried and left said it was "clunky".
Some who tried and left said it was "not intuitive."
Some who tried and left wanted a video tutorial.
Some who tried and left wanted the client to do more of the work.
These comments came in randomly over the last six months and Jean didn't record much more than that, and didn't ask for details, but now, Paul needs details if he's going to do what you want.

(If you are a current player, Paul is already doing a great job of adding the features you want. DO NOT post in this topic about what current players want. You will be deleted. Actually helpful comments about gaining new players will be considered.)

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 11:45 am: Edit

I am a current player but will make a quick comment, even if I get deleted.

I am online a lot. I am not always playing but I have the client open a ton and see the action of players coming online and out. I have seen the many new faces including those who have full on signed up and those using demo accounts. I get asked about the client quite often since I am there usually and sometimes try to help someone learn how to use it.

My impression is that the new folks are excited about the client but often times there is no one there or available to walk them through it.

Maybe we could form a small group that helps orient new people but is a group that plays offense about it. Like, when someone signs up for a demo account we get their email address and and reaches out and schedules an orientation. I think that will help.

I will volunteer to be on the group.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Some come here expecting a video game, not a client.

SVC: pity, Maybe Paul can do one? Or someone else can?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 06:15 pm: Edit

Thanks for the worthwhile comments.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 07:31 pm: Edit

There's just waaaay too much going on and little way figure out which tools are where.

It's hard to know what to do. For instance, just firing weapons can be a struggle. I watched the YouTube videos and still struggled to do impulse activities and fire in the same impulse.

A major improvement would require a pretty strong overhaul. The interface needs to be reorganized and modernized.

It would be great if it automated more stuff. I think most people expect an electronic tool to be able to do more work for them. It's SFB so you can't automate everything but there's definitely room for improvement. For instance, it can't pick a phaser to hit on its own but it could mark off other boxes.

It's clear that it has been growing for decades and that introduces issues. Legacy applications are a lot like Legos. The pieces can fit well but growing structures often require scaffolding that wasn't thought of early on.

None of this is intended as a dig at the dev. It's been in use for years, official events run on it, and it's clearly still in use so it gets the job done. If it didn't it would have died a long time ago.

This last bit is kinda a stretch but it would go a long way towards helping me justify paying for a subscription: a cadet game. By that I mean that there are cadet missions in cadet training book. A ton of those have automated control rules for the opposite side's units. It would be amazing if those existed in SFBOL itself. I've played SFB forever so the rules part of that doesn't matter, but it would be a great way to step gently into the application itself.

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 09:31 pm: Edit

Not a comment on the platform.
I have tried to set it up several times over the years, on 4-5 different PCs, and 3-4 different ISPs. At one point Paul Franz tried to help get it working and it never did. I don't know what a fix for this may be, but knowing about it may help. I doubt I was the only person with this issue.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 07:31 am: Edit

Ginger wrote:
>>For instance, it can't pick a phaser to hit on its own but it could mark off other boxes. >>

(This is a feature, not a bug; there are too many variables involved in "which phaser do I want to hit on this particular point of damage?" for the interface to take into account, and many of the variables change based on information that the interface doesn't have access to. If the interface picked which phaser was hit, it would either significantly change how the game worked, or require people to undo and redo phaser damage all the time, which is more of a hassle than just always asking which phaser you want to hit).

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 08:01 am: Edit

@Peter: That's why I said that it can't pick one but that there are other systems which is could pick.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 08:56 am: Edit

I guess I don't understand what you are saying then? Whenever you lose a weapon, you get to choose which weapon to hit, as you always have that choice based on what is armed, what isn't, which way you might turn, etc. Hitting hull and warp and control doesn't matter which specific box you hit. When you hit tractors and shuttles, generally speaking, the machine assumes you are hitting the empty/unused one, but the oner can always decide which specific tractor or shuttle box is hit.

By Tony L. Thomas (Scoutdad) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 09:18 am: Edit

Steve,
I have tried SFBOL several times over the last few years but never hung around long.
The system is not very intuitive, but with time it becomes easier.
For a new comer, it can really be a challenge to learn.

I consider myself an experienced SFB player, and I had some really long-time SFBOL players walking me through the interface. And even with these crutches, it was not easy to remember the steps needed to fire your weapons, and the other functions phase... Lord!

Anyway, I have a huge advantage over most SFBOL players. I have a face-to-face group that still plays SFB and Fed Comm. This is the primary reason for me giving up on SFBOL. The interface is not the greatest in the world, but if it had been my only option - I would have kept with it and eventually mastered it.

I realize there are issues that led to the system being what it is and that many of those cannot be changed, but...
If you wanted to make it more accessible, I think the two easies things to invest time / money / resources in would be:
1) A fairly detailed users manual.
2) A few youtube walk0thru videos. Possible designed / written by Paul himself. Something that was written specifically to guide a newcomer to SFBOL through the various aspects of the game in a logical progression.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 09:18 am: Edit

"Whenever you lose a weapon, you get to choose which weapon to hit, as you always have that choice based on what is armed, what isn't, which way you might turn, etc. Hitting hull and warp and control doesn't matter which specific box you hit."

This is exactly what I mean. If there is no difference in which box is hit then the system itself can pick them. When there is, the player would pick them.

There are a few fringe cases where it does matter (such as power in ships with booms). Those can be coded accordingly. For instance, booms are always the highest boxes on the SSD. The application can choose boxes going bottom up so that it always leaves as much in the boom as possible.

By Patrick H. Dillman (Patrick) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 01:58 pm: Edit

Andy Koch's comment is essentially the one I get from people that I try to get to use the client.

By Ken Rodeghero (Ken_Rodeghero) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 04:02 pm: Edit

Would it be possible to add special "tutorial rooms" to walk a new player through the mechanics without requiring a second player? Sort of like a programmed cadet manual where things are more scripted. You could start with movement/impulse chart, then energy allocation, arming and firing weapons, shields, etc. and culminate in simple automated scenarios like kill the drones coming for the planet, monster scenario, etc. To keep this manageable you would have to greatly limit options (i.e., always uses a Fed CA or Klingon D7 vs. pick a ship in a BPV range).

It's been a LOOOONG time since I was on SFBOL so apologies if something like this already exists. To get me back means I need more time and not sure ADB can help with that.

To get new players there should be a less steep learning curve and the ability to learn/play solo.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 05:05 pm: Edit

It doesn't exist Ken. I doubt it will, as this is a sideline endeavor for the folks running it (Paul Franz) Unless I miss my mark.
I am willing to do walkthroughs though. I am sure there are one or two others who might respond to an e mail to help as well.

Gary Bear walked me through back in the day...good ol Gary Bear

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Miss Gary. Haven't heard from him in a LONG time. Actually got to meet him FTF once, too.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 06:01 pm: Edit

I would be fine with teaching new players how to use the SFBOL client interface.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 06:04 pm: Edit

I last used it about 20 years ago. It was OK; I didn't expect it to be simple, as SFB isn't simple. My screen wasn't big enough to do the job properly, but that should no longer be an issue. I imagine the interface has improved too.

I doubt I'd like the not-SSDs. SFB without SSDs is not SFB. I don't even like the FC style coloured ones for children. But those ships have sailed...

The main issue was and still is timezone. Apart from Devil and maybe ScottishEngineer, I'm not sure if there are any players left on this side of the Atlantic.

Other than that...time, kids, etc. If it's still there when I retire in 10 years I'll be sure to come back

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 09:24 pm: Edit

Ginger,
It seems that your current issue is that the boxes on the SSDs are marked off starting at the top instead of starting at the bottom.

Am I correct?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 10:45 pm: Edit

Paul, by Ginger’s original post, that was only a smart part of one of many issues.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Friday, January 08, 2021 - 09:22 am: Edit

@Paul, as @Steve said, that's unfortunately the tip of the iceberg.

By Frank Lemay (Princeton) on Friday, January 08, 2021 - 11:47 am: Edit

Personally,
SFBOL is a great venue to use to play !

SFB itself requires player participation, a lot of it, SFBOL also requires player participation but not as much.
Doing 80 damage rolls by dice is simplified by SFBOL. Fluff damage is applied automatically but when a decision is needed by you, you do get a pop up window asking which phaser you want destroyed or which imp engine destroyed or Sensor etc.
If a particular hit is not the hit you want, simply edit the ship.

In short, you must be willing to participate somewhat to make the client work.
Whenever there is an issue, I have found there is always a simple work around solution which works just fine !

Also, there are a lot of us seasoned players [tourney or patrol or campaign ] more than willing to help new comers to the client.

I myself go out of my way in offering to help newcomers, all they need do is ask !

So if a new comer needs help, send them my way, I will go out of my way to help them understand SFBOL.

Cheers
Frank

By Frank Lemay (Princeton) on Friday, January 08, 2021 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Further more, if I had a choice between playing ftf or SFBOL, I will pick SFBOL every time as it really is much more easier to use.
Also, there is an added benefit of saving unfinished games whereas in ftf, you need to record your ships/drones etc positions or leave it on the table top and hope the dog or cat does not swipe your pieces off the board with their tails.
:>)

Cheers
Frank

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Friday, January 08, 2021 - 01:47 pm: Edit

Ginger/Steve,
Understood. But at the same time saying the interface needs to be “modernized” does not tell me much. I do not know what that looks like. Is there a computer game that you play that reflects a modern UI when it comes to playing a board game?

I am not a UI designer and I don’t play that many computer games.

When it comes to the Cadet Training manual there is a Cadet game room that helps setup and play the Scenarios #1-6. I need to re-look at the Training manual to see what is automated, though I know there some things that are in the Cadet game rooms that should be trimmed to simplify the use there.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, January 08, 2021 - 05:08 pm: Edit

Paul has a point. I remember a time when several people over several months asked me to modernize our counters. Only when someone showed me the counters from another game company did I figure out what they meant. To get new customers means a new better client/interface/controlpanel, but to get that means better defining just what it is.

By Shawn Hantke (Shantke) on Friday, January 08, 2021 - 06:06 pm: Edit

The old SJG Ogre computer game vs the new SJG Ogre computer game.

The Warp Factor

Star Trek: Strategic Operations Simulator

Starfleet Command series.

Star Trek: Bridge Commander

Star Trek: Legacy

Star Trek: Encounters

Star Trek: Tactical Assault

Star Trek: Conquest

Star Trek Timelines

Star Trek: Bridge Crew

I am sure most if not all of these will have videos of them being played on Youtube.

Mark Abukoff has probably played most of them, he is on FB. There is a FB Starfleet Command Group that would know a ton about the Starfleet Command games.