John Christiansen - the main thing you're forgetting is the time scale between the two systems, F&E is a six month turn while SFB is a 1/30 second turn (but 1 minute ship time IIRC). This means that during an F&E turn, even if you had a battleforce assault per day that would mean 180 of them for one F&E turn and even then, there would be about 18 hours between them (which comes out to almost 2 million SFB turns (18*60*60*30) so there will be plenty of time for almost anything ...

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Tuesday, December 15, 2020 - 12:30 am: Edit

Stewart, I'm not forgetting that. It isn't relevant to the situation. As SPP pointed out in a different thread, the 6 months of a F&E turn isn't filled with continual combat. There's maneuvering, feints, and all sorts of other time consuming activities. I pointed out that when a ship is stuck in a web, that issue won't last months, weeks, days, or even hours. It'll be settled in minutes, and not very many of them.

The key points to the issue are "is stuck in a web" and "web". There's an urgency at that point. No ship can last long in a web if targeted by the base, and given time and opportunity the Tholians will reinforce their webs to the maximum.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, December 15, 2020 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Thanks

FQ1.38 only talks about dust (etc.) damage calculations. and the "half again" rule.

And phaser fire is just applied "as rolled" to the torp to meet the 6 and 17 point thresholds?

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Tuesday, December 15, 2020 - 07:10 pm: Edit

YES to all above

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Tuesday, December 15, 2020 - 08:13 pm: Edit

It isn't relevant to the situation.

Oh, and how is the time to disengage, travel to the rally point, regroup, resupply, and re-engage NOT relevant to the situation? After all that's also the time for the Tholians to capture/destroy any ships in the web plus reinforce their outer webs.

Or am I misunderstanding your web siege campaign?

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Wednesday, December 16, 2020 - 02:31 am: Edit

There isn't time to do any of those things (except disengage) before the ships trapped in the outer webs are destroyed.

All the things you can do in a 6 month F&E turn are irrelevant if you only have 6 minutes to live.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Wednesday, December 16, 2020 - 01:39 pm: Edit

The SFB scenario you have to somehow disengage WITH those ships, abandoning them means they are destroyed (with their entire crew) or captured, and the rest of your fleet is demoralized by the destruction of those ships and crews due to abandonment by your fleet without a serious effort to pull the crews out.

Do that a couple of times, and your crews decide that they'll take their chances with the Court Martial or mutiny + defection rather than entering the web.

So in the SFB scenario at some stage you stop attacking and start trying to withdraw ships and or pulling off crews. This means you do less damage.

I assume that the F&E "stuck in the web" rules reduce damage in later rounds to represent the losses inherent in recovery in earlier rounds, because there's no obvious way to account for recovery in a single round.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, December 16, 2020 - 04:40 pm: Edit

Stewart, it is a misunderstanding.

My campaign length scenario would have individual ships capable of withdrawing with the capability to return later. I was asking questions on how to allow an attacker ship to withdraw a distance with fire control turned off to allow another ship to enter within the command unit's command rating. If the current command ship were to be destroyed or withdraw, any incoming ships would have to fit within the next best command ship or have a high enough command rating to take over.

In the case of the Tholians, their ships could remain in the web, but with fire control off at WS-0, and under a minimum of (D18.1) restrictions. This way the smaller sized Tholian ships wouldn't be caught in open space while trying to get inside the web to reinforce the battle line.

The idea was to simulate a F&E battle hex attack on a Tholian base. Any web stuck ships would always be part of a battle force of ships and never the only target to focus on, and the Tholians wouldn't have an unopposed moment to dump energy in the web. Attacker ships could conduct repairs away from battle and the Tholian base could repair ships.

Some long term rules such as (J1.422) could be used. The players would be trying to preserve their forces for later use while trying to make strategic gains in a tactical situation. The attacker wouldn't have to plow through a minefield to attack a ship reinforcing the web, but rather pick away at the minefield under Tholian fire and withdraw to repair shields.

Effectively, multiple F&E rounds of combat would be played out as a single SFB scenario which would be fluid enough for ship changes mid-game. Because of the webs and the possibility of ships stuck in the webs would very fast turnover of forces be needed. It would also change tactics as the Tholian player might not want to destroy a ship in a web as it takes up a command slot.

It makes a Tholian base assault a one stop painful onion peeling event.

Sadly, the SFB rules don't permit the ship exchange necessary to make it work.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, December 16, 2020 - 05:11 pm: Edit

DLambert,

Two F&E rules are pertinent here:

1. "(512.314) If ships are stuck in the web, the Attacker cannot call for an approach battle or switch to a different target system in the same hex unless these “stuck” ships are abandoned and treated as captured." I take this as a recognition that ships stuck in web are an immediate concern. The SFB attacker cannot expect a stuck ship to remain alive between scenarios. It'll be captured or destroyed quickly if left alone.

2. "(512.32) TRAPPED: Crippled ships in the web cannot be withdrawn from the Battle Force (even between rounds) unless ...." (The rest describes how to withdraw that stuck cripple.) The next round, the cripple is still there and counts against the command rating of the command ship. There's no damage reduction other than the reduced firepower of the cripple. Uncrippled ships do not get stuck in webs in F&E. It's a common tactic in F&E to take damage as complete kills leaving no web stuck cripples.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Wednesday, December 16, 2020 - 06:41 pm: Edit

Effectively, multiple F&E rounds of combat would be played out as a single SFB scenario ...

Aahhh, there's the problem, each F&E combat round is (or is that can be) a single SFB scenario, linked scenarios is a (mini)campaign with time between each individual scenario (which can limit how much can be done between them).

The next round, the cripple is still there ...

Really? re-read (512.314) '...abandon and treated as captured.' Now if you are trying to make this a continuous scenario, you have to find the minimum amount of time that passes while still fighting with the enwebbed ships against the Tholians (remembering that one SFB turn is 1/30 of a second long). Think they can still survive?

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, December 16, 2020 - 08:50 pm: Edit

Stewart, your first point is generally true. In general a round of combat in F&E can be a complete SFB scenario. A ship stuck in web is an exception.

The full text of (512.314) is "(512.314) If ships are stuck in the web, the Attacker cannot call
for an approach battle or switch to a different target system in the same hex unless these “stuck” ships are abandoned and treated as captured." The definition of an approach battle is "APPROACH BATTLE: The Attacking Player may challenge the Defending Fleet to fight at a distance from the base sufficient for its weapons and scout sensors (but not its fighters or PFs) to be ineffective. This is known as the “approach battle”." You're making my point. As long as a ship is stuck in a web, the SFB scenario cannot end. The stuck ship(s) will be captured or destroyed by the time another battle force arrives. My campaign scenario neither offers an approach battle or nor switches to a different target system. The stuck ship is never left by itself.

Also, if there are no stuck ships and the attacker withdraws, the Tholians will reinforce the web as much as they can before the next round of battle begins. My idea, if the rules permitted, would keep the whole base assault consistent.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, December 17, 2020 - 03:57 pm: Edit

John Christiansen:

Let me try to explain it.

Stewart Frazier is correct, and turn in Federation & Empire is six months. And yes, fleets are organized and thrown into the fray. But the Fleets do not really make any sense compared to the (S8.0) rules for Star Fleet Battles. I have seen a Battle Line composed of C8s and Battle Tugs with D7s being the smallest units in it (the battle line) while the ships not committed (but in the battle hex) had large numbers of F5s and D5s waiting for future rounds (and yes, various support ships and carriers and etc.).

The battles rounds are only reflecting what roughly happened when it is all over.

So, yes, you are attacking a Tholian bate with all its we defenses.

But you are not just doing that in a six month turn. While it is the main focus of the attacker, there are other things going on.

The Tholians (and/or their allies) are being engaged in other skirmishes that are not at the base. The attackers are trying to besiege the base, and the defenders are trying to run convoys, protect planets/colonies in the hex of the base and behind it.

During that period you are going to run ships into the web (when you think you have a chance of reducing it) and if you do not plan to see them destroyed, your attack force is going to have to have made plans to pull them out.

But it is all abstracted, and no single battle line of the attacking force necessarily assaulted the base.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Thursday, December 17, 2020 - 04:50 pm: Edit

SPP, I get all of that and have accepted SVC's answer of Monday, December 14, 2020 - 09:34 am.

Since then all I have been doing is answering questions and/or clarifying points about what my idea was. I'm not asking for any changes or arguing why they're needed.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Friday, December 18, 2020 - 06:40 pm: Edit

Kudos on the North Polar Republic! Very amusing and seasonal! Though not including a Rudolph-class scout ship was an opportunity missed.

Happy holidays!

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, December 18, 2020 - 07:19 pm: Edit

SPP,

The tac intel rules say that at a certain range ships can distinguish "Electronic Warfare Fighter."

So, is this only for the size one versions? Because Heavy Righters & Bombers, the only thing needed to become an "EWF" is a software deal. No actual change in the fighter itself.

Or is the EWF revealed as such due to its emissions? Then could I shut that off sometimes? Because my opponent & would pretty much automatically zoink that one first with narrow Disr/ tons of Phaser ones...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, December 21, 2020 - 10:41 am: Edit

Mike Grafton:

I would have to say that a HFE, MBE, and HBE are not distinguished by that rule. Only size-1 electronic warfare fighters are.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, December 21, 2020 - 06:19 pm: Edit

OK. We were wondering.

So where would you detect the 2+ space fighters/ bombers working as the "EWF" for their squadron?

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Monday, December 21, 2020 - 10:05 pm: Edit

Tactical Intelligence (D17.4) Levels of Information,
Level I: gives you, external ordnance
Level K: gives you, EW and two-seat fighters can be distinguished from other fighters.

And actions like lending EW will be known.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, December 22, 2020 - 06:27 pm: Edit

See above response from SPP

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Tuesday, December 22, 2020 - 09:34 pm: Edit

I thought there was a diagram of a planetary ground combat location looked like. I checked module M and the index but I can't find it.

Anybody remember seeing it?

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Tuesday, December 22, 2020 - 11:22 pm: Edit

Ken, there is Module A+ that has a Planetary Landing Display (page 19 2003 copy).
If it is a boarding diagram, like in Module M then perhaps it is in a Captains Log.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Wednesday, December 23, 2020 - 10:47 am: Edit

Wayne that is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Monday, December 28, 2020 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Taking a look at CL44 and CL52 I noticed the Jumbo Armed Freighter forward structures to be rather different. Why would the F-AJ have a much larger forward structure than any/all of the specialized versions of the same ship? (Note: the description does discuss the warp drive section of the ship.)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, December 29, 2020 - 01:09 pm: Edit

Lawrence Bergen:

You may as well ask why the F-AL has a much larger forward section than any/all of the specialized versions of the ship.

The Armed Freighter versions of the Large Freighter, Jumbo Freighter, and Heavy Freighter all use the same command section.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Saturday, January 02, 2021 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Is the Super Energy Module mentioned in the Magellanic history in Y183 the same as the large energy module mentioned in (G20.23)?