I'm not SPP, but my guess would be because that is the natural break point in the TRL damage chart. Setting it at 12 means that you can just chop off the rest of the chart.

Then again, in C3A, it was 10 hexes, not 12. So, while C3A is all conjectural, moving the 12 hexes is a retcon, as I assume it should show 12 hexes, too.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, November 12, 2020 - 04:03 pm: Edit

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Quote:

SPP; why 12 hexes?

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By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, November 13, 2020 - 02:45 pm: Edit

Mike West;

Better Make it 10 just to be consistent. We chose 10 for the Andro PFs' TRLs in Module C3A, so just make it 10.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, November 13, 2020 - 02:54 pm: Edit

OK. Like I said, I am good with either, I just need to know what it is for sure.

Thanks!!

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Saturday, January 02, 2021 - 02:04 pm: Edit

What is the towing cost of the Joser (RS1.8A) Cargo Pod (P-C)?

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Saturday, January 02, 2021 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick

Ok I really do not like being a pain lol. Though it may seem otherwise to some. Also I love the way you interact and answer so many questions that we have.

Naturally after the butter up comes the but. I am still waiting on the actual rule that we now have dealing with there being but one scout allowed in a fleet normally. Excluding the one scout freebee.

(S8.25) SCOUTS: One scout does not count against the command limits.

Ok this seems to apply to the free scout mentioned in S8.35 cool. But it does not say you can only have 1.

(S8.35) SCOUTS: There can be no more than one scout in the free scout slot.

This makes it very clear that you can only get one free scout for the command limits.

(S8.351) One PFT or a survey ship could be used in addition to the one allowed scout.

Now this rule...refers to another rule and makes it clear that somewhere there is a rule which says you can only have one scout unless using the free scout rule. Cool. The problem from mine and some other peoples perspective is that other than your earlier declaration from on high that there is but one scout. The rule book does not have the referred to rule any more.

What I mean of course by any more, is S8.35 used to say there could be but one scout. Of course that was obviously an error because it was supposed to be saying you could have a free scout in the free scout slot as the revisions which are available now clearly show.

But as far as I can tell, there is no previous rule before S8.351 that states the rule S8.351 is referring to unless it was referring to the rule in 8.35 which stated there can be only one which was an error.

Perhaps in F&E there is such a rule which the rules mention is what most of this is based on? Not knowing F&E and only beginning to learn it I cannot say.

Anyway I would appreciate it if you could show me what rule was being referred too in S8.351 because having the words..."could be used in addition to the one allowed scout". Implies that there is a rule saying there is only one allowed scout. Where is it? Or another interpretation of S8.351 would be that in addition to the one free scout....if you use a PFT you get yet another free ship. Especially since it is under the free scout slot so should be referring to just the free scout slot since it has no link to a rule outside this section.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Saturday, January 02, 2021 - 09:41 pm: Edit

Could not find the towing cost, Ken, but I can take a guess...

IF my count on the SSD is correct*, the cargo pod has 26 boxes. While VERY close to the 25 boxes on civilian cargo pods (which have a towing movement cost of 0.25), it's still larger. For this reason, my guess is that it would have the same towing cost of the larger single weight pods of the Federation and Gorn (0.3333).

(* My count might be off; my vision was pretty blurry from spending too much time with the Josers, and I'm still fighting the hangover... )

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, January 03, 2021 - 04:29 pm: Edit

SPP,

Do the Jumbo Auxiliaries for the Carnivons use the same W1, W2, W3, W4, W5 scheme as the Heavy Auxiliaries?

W1 = Phaser 2
W2 = Heel Nipper
W3 = Heal Nipper
W4 = Death Bolt
W5 = Phaser 3

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Sunday, January 03, 2021 - 04:34 pm: Edit

Charles:

Any ship with special sensors is designated as a scout under (S8.25).

The Scout listed under (S8.35) does not count against the command limit of your Flagship. Flagship, typically being defined as the ship with the highest command rating.

A second ship with special sensors (PFT, ACS, DCS, Drone Ship, etc) may be added to your battle force. This ship does count against the command limit of your Flagship.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 04, 2021 - 03:00 pm: Edit

Charles:

Believe me, I am trying (no sarcasm is intended by this statement, it is just a note that I am obviously not succeeding).

Notice under (S8.47) (which is a reference included in the rule, of course) that drone bombardment ships do not count against the scout limit if they have special sensors. This benefits both the Klingons (D6Ds) and the Kzintis (CDs). Both (provided that each drone bombardment ship is matched by two non bombardment ships) can have three special sensor equipped ships plus a ship that is a scout (D6S), and this scout could occupy the Free Scout slot.

The point is that the rule on Free Scouts (S8.351) you are allowed a scout, and it can be a free scout. If you have eight or more ships, you can have two scouts (and they can both be true scouts, i.e., D6S, but only one can be in the Free Scout slot [and under (S8.47) two of the eight ships could be D6Ds).

The point is that if the ship has special sensors, it is nominally a scout. Normally ships designated "Scout" are the true scouts, but you also have the Scout Carriers. Any ship with special sensors us basically a scout, but you cannot have a second SCOUT (ship designated by its rule as a scout as opposed to one that has scout abilities but is not designated a scout) unless you have either or more ships. So you can have an exploration ship or a PFT with scout channels in a fleet with seven ships or less. Unless they are otherwise exempted (e.g., DB ships with special sensors) and qualify under their own rules (are accompanied by two other ships making up the battle force).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, January 04, 2021 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Thomas Mathews:

The weapons for the Jumbos was basically defined by the weapons for the Heavies. While there is no separate listing, Module C6 included the heavies and their weapons were spelled out. So the basic ship to look at is the Heavy Auxiliary Carrier (this is the ship in Module R8 which had the list of weapons that would be used in the weapons options of the various heavy auxiliaries (and for the Jumbos) of all the empires). For the Carnivons, this notes that the Heavy Aux CVA Had

W1: Phaser-2.
W2: Heel Nippers (LF+L, RF+R).
W3.: Heel Nipper (RA)
W4: Death Bolts
W5: Phaser-3.

So with the exception that the Heel Nipper firing arcs were spelled out, it is the same as your list.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, January 04, 2021 - 06:46 pm: Edit

Thank you SPP. I appreciate your reply as it helps with me some F&E work.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Tuesday, January 05, 2021 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick

Yes...I understand all of that. And it is wonderful. And totally not the point lol.

While yes it points out the only thing really mentioned. That you can have a free scout and what they can be. And it mentioned the command rating also cool. Yet no where in any rule does it ever say....you can only normally have one of the listed types of ships called scouts.

And I am not trying to be a pain or obnoxious. Just every other type of limited ship is specifically addressed in the rules and defined as you can have 1 and only 1 of such and such except scouts. Once upon a time there was such a rule. Misplaced and obviously an error. Where is said specifically. You can only have one scout. Then you made the rule read correctly...S8.35 and now it addresses the free scout as it should have instead of saying only one scout is allowed.

I have pointed out rules in the past that in this conversation that addressed the specific nature of every limited ship and how they are limited. As in BCH ships. Maulers...so forth so on. 1 per fleet. Scouts.....um....you can have a free one and see this proves you can only have two. All this proves is you can have a free one in addition to any others.

Just glance over the rules...all limited ships are specifically listed as having 1...or with Drone Bombardment ships 3 in a full fleet. But no where in the rules does it say scouts are limited to one ship per entire fleet except see S8.35 and S8.351 where you can have a Free Scout outside of the ships command rating. We do get sent to those rules but only to talk about how this ship is free and can go beyond command limits.

Now as a friend pointed out...it was sort of implied. But implied is not the same as having a rule saying that. And that is all I am pointing out. The rule that actually said that, which was supposed to say something else...was changed. So now there is no rule saying that.

Chuck

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 02:38 pm: Edit

"(S8.35) SCOUTS: There can be no more than one scout in the free scout slot (S8.25)."

That does not say there can be only one Scout. It says there can be no more than one "Free Scout," that is to say a scout that occupies the Free Scout slot, of which there is only one (1) such slot.

"Any ship with a diamond symbol u on the Master Ship Chart is a scout; however, some special sub-types of scouts are handled otherwise by (S8.0)."

So you can occupy the Free Scout Slot with a ship that is not designated a scout, but has special sensors. Such as a survey ship or a PFT (not all PFTs have special sensors, so you cannot occupy the slot with such a ship). With publication of the "Early Yeas" there is more than one "survey ship" which did no have special sensors and they could not (if you created some special scenario where one was available) could not occupy the slot (so there is a point to the rule).

If you had TWO scouts in your battle group, ONLY ONE could be in the Free Scout slot, and from the stand point of the rule it wold have to be (if your second scout was not a designated scout but had special sensors) the dedicated scout would have to occupy the Free Scout spot.

"(S8.351) One PFT or a survey ship could be used in addition to the one allowed scout. This second scout could be a regular scout if the total battle force has eight or more actual ships."

You can have more than one scout in a battle force, as allowed by the rule, and if the force is LESS than eight ships, the added scouts must be either a Survey Ship or a PFT tender, but not a dedicated scout ship. If you have eight ships or more, then you can have a second dedicated scout, but only ONE (1) can occupy the "Free Scout" slot. The rule does not create a Second Free Scout slot.

There are exceptions even to the PFT and SR in a fleet of seven ships, e.g., drone bombardment ships with special sensors. You could have a fleet with a Scout, a PFT, and SR as three of the ships, and two more ships, and then include two drone ships (two supporting ships for each drone ship) giving you five ships with special sensors in seven ship fleet (an example, and not intended to cover all special cases, and remember with the PF you also have the possibility of a PFS).

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, January 06, 2021 - 08:07 pm: Edit

So, for example, you could have a scout carrier (plus escorts), DB Ship (without a diamond), a PFT AND something that is a "true scout" with a diamond?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Sigh. I hate when a message just vanishes.

To reply (again) to Mike Grafton (sorry Mike, the earlier response to your query just vanished, and some of the frustration from it doing so is leaking through in the new reply I fear, it is not directed at you).

You can have a DB ship WITH special sensors, so your DB ship does not have to not have a diamond reference, you just have to have two consorts before you can have a second DB ship.

But Scout Carriers are a little odd. They specifically say "Scout" and generally have the full electronic warfare suite (four special sensors on a cruiser hull). The passage of time has largely standardized that, most special sensor equipped cruisers (PFTs, SRs, DBs) have just two special sensors on a cruiser hull, and size class 4 scouts have two but are designated as scouts (never mind that the Kzinti SF had three and the Federation has EIGHT). So the Scout Carrier is a SCOUT. And under "(S8.345) "Scout-Carriers" (with special sensors and six heavy fighters) count against the PFT limit." Thus the carrier could be in the Free Scout slot (although not its escort, but more to the point) its fighters would then count against the Command Limits of the flag ship as a SEPARATE/INDEPENDENT squadron even though their carrier is present. So you nominally have TWO PFTs in the force (Scout Carrier and PFT), and one (the PFT or the Scout Carrier) has, I say again HAS to occupy the Free Scout Slot under (S8.341) "There can be only one PFT; exception: a second PFT could occupy the scout slot but its PFs would count against command limits (S8.25)."

At this point, wanting to add another Scout ship is basically blocked because your force has only six ships (with the nominal addition of this sixth ship), and not eight ships, which is the minimal requirement to have a second Scout. "This second scout could be a regular scout if the total battle force has eight or more actual ships"

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, January 07, 2021 - 06:02 pm: Edit

Ok. It just seems like that if there ISN'T a diamond then you can do all kinds of stuff...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, January 08, 2021 - 11:49 am: Edit

Mike Grafton:

Question: Which ship with special sensors does NOT have a Diamond in its notes column of the Master Ship Chart? Essentially, all ships that have special sensors should have such a diamond (whether scout, PFT, Drone Bombardment ship, police flagship), and if they do not it is probably (very likely) an error or oversight. Note that there are ships that have some of those functions (SCS, or drone bombardment) that do not have special sensors and thus do not have the diamond in their notes column, but a ship that has special sensors (or even one special sensor) should have a diamond in its notes column.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Friday, January 08, 2021 - 02:01 pm: Edit

Dunno. I stand corrected. I thought the diamond was for actual scouts, not all ships that have special sensors.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, January 08, 2021 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Mike Grafton:

Any ship with scout sensors can occupy the Free Scout slot, but for some ships doing so has disadvantages. Scout Carriers and PFT are not really free scout, because if you put then in the Free Scout slot their heavy fighters or PFs count against the Command Limit as an independent unit, so you gain nothing by using them as a "free scout. Drone bombardment ships require two ships to accompany them, and are in essence free, but only have two spacial sensors if they have special sensors at all. A police flagship can be our free scout, but it has only one special sensor.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, January 16, 2021 - 12:12 am: Edit

SPP:
A discussion in the Federation Commander section brought up some questions I have one cloak availability and costs (if any) for a couple units. Below, when I ask what the "cloak cost" is, I mean both the energy cost to operate, and the BPV cost to install. Also, assume I am talking about Romulan units in all cases, though feel free to mention any Orion instances if there are any.

First, the ComPlat. It has no cloak cost listed, but the unit description doesn't say it isn't allowed. Oddly, the SAM base says it can't use a cloak, but the ComPlat doesn't. So, can the ComPlat use cloak? If so, what is the cloak cost for the unit?

Second, the Operations Base (from R7). It doesn't even have an SSD I can find, but is instead implied by the Operational Auxiliary. Can either the Base or the Aux ship use cloak? If so, what are the costs? (These units are not in FC, but looking at the rest made me curious.)

In both cases I freely admit I could have missed something.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Saturday, January 16, 2021 - 01:24 am: Edit

Mike West:

The cloak BPV cost is 25 BPV to install

I think Ships/units with cloak normally say they have cloak in SSD

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Saturday, January 16, 2021 - 01:47 am: Edit

Mike West:

25 BPV is the cost for an Orion CA to have cloak,

(R8.R4) the cost is written for each ship on the SSD

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Saturday, January 16, 2021 - 11:41 am: Edit

As far as the Commercial Platform cloaking goes, I think there's an implied, "It can't have one installed" element.

First, as I understand it, the Commercial Platform is solely a civilian unit; it's not even allowed to serve as a military logistics hub. As such, the militaries wouldn't make use of it.

Second, as has been established in the rules, the Romulans restrict cloaking devices solely to the military; not even their police are allowed to use them. This would leave (legal) civilian use of them flat out.

Perhaps an Orion MIGHT have a cloaking commercial platform, but even that is HIGHLY dubious; the Orions have precious few cloaking devices, and an Orion affiliated Commercial Platform would be more likely to use the, "We're just an innocent little nothing" as a defense, rather than relying on a piece of highly restricted military hardware whose mere presence on such a base would draw unnecessary suspicion from the local police.

(for my 0.02 Quatloos worth... )

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, January 16, 2021 - 11:51 am: Edit

The Commercial Platform is covered by the general prohibition of cloaking devices on civilian units (find a freighter or a civilian base station, or a free trader or etc. with a cloak.


ROMULAN GENERAL UNITS: Unless otherwise noted, Romulan general units do not have cloaking devices (G13.0); the exception to this is that most (but not all) Romulan size-class-4 and larger bases do or can have cloaking devices.

Y175 Base Refits: Civilian bases will not have cloaking devices installed. (Mentioned because it is of a size class to have a cloak but is specifically prohibited.)

CLOAK COST: Only on ships which can have cloaks.