Well while the rule...which discusses a Towed ship more than a tractored one...and here is why: Again I refer to all standard tractor issues. When ever a tractor is dropped for any reason. No power...simply time to drop it...another ship applies tractor and over comes it...what ever. the ship then flies off. The only ship which has an issue from having a tractor is the one that did the HET because the tractor set up a strain on that ship which affected it to the extent that it stressed the ship out even more than a HET does. Which is why the ship has a higher than normal HET rating. So the ship that is tractoring has the issues.

So why would a towed ship stop? Because it was none moving. Sure it is tractored like every other ship. But being simply towed. It had no movement. And is not expecting to move. So it cannot get the engines started quickly and has to wait till a new turn happens. Pretty simple.

Anyway, any time a tractor drops...the ship that was tractored resumes normal operations. Only the tractoring ship has side effects happen...potentially anyway.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 08:22 am: Edit

Dana wrote:
>>(G7.3223) If a breakdown occurs, the tractor link is broken and cannot be restored on the current turn. In addition to the damage resulting from the breakdown, the towing ship takes one point of internal damage, distributed directly by the DAC (D4.21), for each point of it's practical speed (C2.411). For the remainder of the turn, the towed ship does not move, while the towing ship automatically tumbles (C6.55)>>

Yeah, as noted elsewhere, I don't think that the towed ship magically stops moving when the towing ship breaks down. I'm pretty sure that the reference to the "towed ship does not move" is referring only to the effect of the tractor, not the towed ship magically dropping to speed 0 when the tractoring ship breaks down and loses the tractor.

I don't have a rulebook handy, currently, and am not a rules official. But still. Seems likely.

By Michael F Guntly (Ares) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 08:53 am: Edit

Charles Carroll,

Am I missing something in your tractored ships gaining movement scenario?

While I have not looked at my rules in close to a decade, I have a question from memory. With your designated opponents of Horseman + Lancer moving speed 27:
Horseman (MC 2/3) puts 17.33 warp + 1 imp into moving speed 27.
Lancer (MC 1/2) puts 13 warp + 1 imp into moving speed 27.

While tractored Horseman pseudo speed is 15 (17.33/1.166) and Lancer pseudo speed is 11 (13/1.166). Add 1 movement for impulse, regardless of which ship provides it on any impulse. You did not indicate any speed changes occurring.

How did your opponents manage to move more than 27 (15+11+1)?

Note that one question I'm unsure of is what happens to a delayed movement point if the tractor is temporarily dropped before the delayed movement (next impulse) occurs. I believe it might be ignored.

Horseman has 2 tractors and Lancer has 1 tractor.

Do I need to dig out a movement chart (from wherever it is) to see if I can have tractors drop/reattach so as to gain extra movement?

By Kenneth Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 10:07 am: Edit

Dana,
One thing to remember is the Sequence of Play.

Movement, including the HET and breakdown roll, happens during step 6A2.

The breakdown damage is resolved in step 6A3 after any other movement related damage.

Tractor then releases as the very first event in step 6A4. Then the speed change due to the dropped tractor is noted.

I only know this because I fly Lyrans a lot, and had to get to know the damage during movement rules really well.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 10:26 am: Edit

Like, the actual pertinent issue at hand here is that rule (G7.3223) apparently suggests that when a ship that is tractoring another ship HETs and breaks down, the ship that was being towed "for the remainder of the turn, does not move".

Let's not get lost in the weeds.

I'm pretty certain that this is just referring to the movement from being tractored, and not that the ship in question immediately stops from the other ship breaking down and dropping the tractor. But again, not the rules authority here.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Michael, what's happening is not one ship maintains a tractor on the other for the entire turn, but they alternate tractoring each other for a few impulses at a time before dropping it, timed such that they are tractored when one of their pseudo speeds is scheduled to move and speed 27 isn't, then dropping the tractor immediately so they resume moving at speed 27.

Charles, you just repeated your issues without addressing any of the new ones I brought up in a putative fix to it. In fact, you proposed solution adds even more issues on top of mine, as then you get into the question of which ship has to pay for the extra movement, which is extra throny when it's opposing ships tractoring each other and unintentionally producing such extra movement. There's also the matter that it may well be no one knows such extra movement is occuring until impulses after the fact. If I tractor you with the intention of holding it for the turn, we move at one of our pseudo speeds, but then incoming damage from you destroys the tractor holding you and we go back to our plotted speeds, who pays?

And if they can't pay, then we are back to the issues I laid out: do we just cancel any moves remaining after they have moved the number of hexes they paid for resulting in missed movement in the lattermost impulses of the turn?

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 12:38 pm: Edit

I don't think you are going to get a satisfactory solution to this. It is just an artifact of the impulse movement chart. For example, it has been long established that you could move 21 hexes in a turn without ever moving faster than speed 20 - you just need to plot a deceleration to 19 and then reaccelerate to 20 at the appropriate time. This also works for many other speed combinations. It can be critical if trying to stay ahead of a medium speed drone swarm.

Similarly, tractor tricks have been a part of the game for 40 years. They have their uses at critical moments, but they do not unbalance things to any extent. It is what it is.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 01:56 pm: Edit

1. Is Tholian ship stopped for the rest of the turn, or would that only apply if it was a non-moving ship. It is a moving ship that is being towed (G7.36) so does the non-moving statement not apply?
ANSWER: The Tholian ship continues to move at its Practical Speed, because there is no Erratic Maneuvers or terrain induced movement in the tournament (if the Tholian had been doing erratic maneuvers, then, yes, it would be Effective Speed). The comment on non-movement was a towed non moving unit, and even that is not entirely true as another unit could tractor it, you do not become immune to other empire’s tractors because you fell out of one tractor.

On Impulse #12 does it go back to its effective speed of 21 (actually on Impulse #11 after movement it has a pre-planned speed change to 26) so is its moving speed 26 on Impulse #12.

ANSWER: The attempt to HET is done when the Romulan ship moves in the Order of Precedence, and that is when it broke down, however you resolve a breakdown in the sequence of play during the "Damage During Movement Stage." So on Impulse #11 the Tholian would be released and could then do anything it was eligible to do, but this is after movement so it would not regain any movement on Impulse #11, but would indeed be speed 26 on Impulse #12.

1a. The effect of breakdown happens after all movement? So the tractor would not be broken mid-movement allowing the Tholian to move at speed 21 on Impulse #11. I do not think this happens but can you confirm.

ANSWER: Correct.

2. The practical speed of the Romulan is 14, not six (which would be pseudo speed)? So it takes 14 points of internals from the tractor link being broken? Correct?

ANSWER: Correct. (G7.3224) If tumbling occurs, the tumbling ship moves at its own effective speed.

3. Ships roll for breakdown after changing facing but before moving (C6.512). Then (C6.541), The ship immediately stops [unless it "tumbles" (C6.55)]. So the Romulan is automatically tumbling, Correct? Then (C6.551) The ship CONTINUES (for the duration of the post-breakdown period) moving in the direction, and at the speed, that it was moving BEFORE ATTEMPTING the HET regardless of its facing.

ANSWER: Per (G7.223) tumbling is automatic during towing when the towing ship beaks down.

So, what speed is it tumbling at, its pseudo speed before rolling the breakdown of six, or its practical speed of 14.

ANSWER: He would tumble at his plotted speed without consideration that he had previously had a tractor link to the Tholian.

Damage taken.
(C6.5422) Every fifth warp box is destroyed (round fractions down when calculating these losses). This is distributed as evenly possible between the ship’s engines.
So, the Romulan has four engines (and 29 warp left after earlier damage). So it loses five warp and has to lose at least one from each engine (i.e., it cannot take losses just on Left Warp and Right Warp, it has to lose at least one Center Warp to each of those engines).

ANSWER: Correct.

Then per (C6.5423) it suffers two points of internal damage which is combined with the damage from tumbling. (C6.5555) Roll one die and score this as internal damage. This occurs one time only and is combined with damage from (C6.542) in a single volley.
When is that volley rolled? There would be speed (14 or 6) + 2 + (1d6). Is it all at the end of the post breakdown period, or is it at the start. Does it matter if the Tholian shoots the Romulan during the tumbling period through a down shield?

ANSWER: During the "Damage During Movement Stage," specifically during the "Resolve breakdowns (C6.54), (C3.61) (G7.3222)" of the sequence of play. It does not matter if the Tholian shoots him through a down shield because direct-fire damage has its own resolution stage.

Thanks
Oh, one final question.
If on question #1. If the Tholian is stopped after the tractor is broken. Is it under any restrictions or can it launch a Wild Weasel immediately on Impulse #11.

ANSWER: A Speed Zero tractored unit that is released whether by breakdown of voluntary release is simply a Speed Zero unit that cannot be tractored by the unit that formerly had it under tow.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 02:06 pm: Edit

One additional comment.

As plasma torpedoes are self-guiding, there is no effect on any plasma torpedoes on the board from the breakdown other than they cannot benefit from the ECCM of the unit was generating, which tournament cruisers in tournament games do not do.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Alex while yeah...it is a thorny problem. And no. I have not worked out a wonderful solution. All I have seen is that by not having to pay for the extra movement with warp or impulse power you should not be able to get the extra movement.

Michael the ship tractors for one impulse of movement only then drops the tractor. All it is doing is eliminating the one impulse the ships fail to move in this particular case. There are many other ways to do this at slower speeds involving both ship moving together or separately that do the same thing. Timing, the impulse chart, and speed of the ships need to be calculated but it can be done up to 4 times in a turn. Gaining up to 4 movements assuming you have two ships and 4 tractors.

On a separate note...while yes...you can as an example run speed 30...drop to 29...then back to speed 30 and run speed 31....if you do that though, as the speed plot will show, you paid 31 to do it. Even though you never went 31. Same with any other speed plot that allows you to go 1 hex faster than you show.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 04:14 pm: Edit

You keep saying it shouldn't be able to be done, but it's been a known issue for decades, so maybe the problem here is that there *isn't* a wonderful solution?

And the "use speed changes between two speeds to eek out an extra hex about the higher speed" is "violating" other rules the same sense that the tractor shenanigans are - because while in that case all the movement is being paid for, it can be used to violate acceleration limits. A (standard) ship that moved speed 10 the turn before can't plot speed 21, but can do a split 19/20 plot to move 21 hexes - why is that okay to you?

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 04:23 pm: Edit

What I don't see here, is anyone working out a tactic, which makes the one being discussed untenable....
Yes, it will rely on the situation on the map....

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 04:33 pm: Edit

The tractor tricks ships will have to overcome their own EW to successfully tractor if they are using EW, that should give the pursuing ships the EW edge on one or both of the tractor ships.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 05:04 pm: Edit

Alex...I know. The problem though is while in the past this existed. No one ever really abused it like this. Recently some people learned about it. And suddenly it is becoming all the rage. There is no effective counter to this. Assuming you have 2 ships. Single ship combat is fine so a great number of battles have to possible effect from this.

With that said. And since you ignore it. The problem is purely one of power not being produced from movement required power. The rules are specific as to what is required. But never say oh if you use a tractor forget the rules they no longer matter.

So sure we can just keep doing this. But it is messing up a whole lot of things and in time as more and more use this and everyone who gets run over by it will have to start learning this. It makes a number of weapons very diminished. Such as fighters, Drones, Plasma. Any seeking weapons. Most Direct Fire Weapons are not affected that badly. And on open maps the speed advantage to two ships vs one is none fixable. They can run off and just leave you.

The Klingon Saber Dance just become the Dance...were they drift into range...shoot the single ship...and run at 31 away. A lot of ships cannot maintain 31 and have their weapons up.

So...can we ignore it because it never was an issue before...Sure. But this game is supposed to be about balance and the abilities of the Captains. Not about tricks and having two or more ships overcoming ability.

As always just what I am seeing an my opinion.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 05:07 pm: Edit

MarkSHoyle see above...there is no tactic that can address this really.

Wayne you are right...EW can become more of an issue. If only you could catch them. Some races...like Klingon could since they have every turn weapons that fire at great range. They will attrition you over time and can stay near enough. Others...not so much. Add in Feds...who need Warp to arm...and...they slow down...till late models appear.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 05:23 pm: Edit

Alex...actually I do have the answer....and the answer is the same answer given for a mid turn speed change We simply need to pull warp power from bats when doing this. Every hex gained this way must be paid for by warp expenditure. You pick up a movement. You pay the warp required to move one hex. Simple. Easy. While this bypasses the Speed change rules...at least it is payed for with Warp Power. So use your bats...with warp in them. And gain a hex or more. But pay for the gained movement. It is not different at all. Just requires you to adjust your Battery Cap and make a note.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 05:24 pm: Edit

"And suddenly it is becoming all the rage."

Citation needed.

And those ships are having to pay power for the tractors involved. Assuming MC1 ships all around (different movement speeds will make it a bit wonky, but not really that much), them moving X extra hexes is 2X hexes of free movement between them - but they have to pay for X in tractor linkages, so only X hexes are "free" - and only if they are allowed to perform that operation over the turn with impunity. In the game you describe, you admitted that 1. You screwed up on turn 1 and 2. that the it was closed map that killed you if you left, which are both very significant circumstances to consider on the impact of this.

And again: are you ok with a ship that has a max legal speed of 20 for a given turn moving 21 hexes with a 19/20 split plot?

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 05:31 pm: Edit

"We simply need to pull warp power from bats when doing this."

What if you don't have that power?

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 06:13 pm: Edit

I am still confused by these rulings,

"1. Is Tholian ship stopped for the rest of the turn, or would that only apply if it was a non-moving ship. It is a moving ship that is being towed (G7.36) so does the non-moving statement not apply?
ANSWER: The Tholian ship continues to move at its Practical Speed, because there is no Erratic Maneuvers or terrain induced movement in the tournament (if the Tholian had been doing erratic maneuvers, then, yes, it would be Effective Speed). The comment on non-movement was a towed non moving unit, and even that is not entirely true as another unit could tractor it, you do not become immune to other empire’s tractors because you fell out of one tractor."

"3. Ships roll for breakdown after changing facing but before moving (C6.512). Then (C6.541), The ship immediately stops [unless it "tumbles" (C6.55)]. So the Romulan is automatically tumbling, Correct? Then (C6.551) The ship CONTINUES (for the duration of the post-breakdown period) moving in the direction, and at the speed, that it was moving BEFORE ATTEMPTING the HET regardless of its facing.

ANSWER: Per (G7.223) tumbling is automatic during towing when the towing ship beaks down."


why does one rule not apply and the other does in (G7.3223)?
If a towed ship that is moving does not stop moving for the rest of the turn because it is not a non-moving ship, then the towing ship should not automatically tumble because it is not towing a non-moving ship?

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 06:43 pm: Edit

One item forgotten in all this, is that when tractoring, both ships are paying to move BOTH ships! Any extra hexes of movement gained are effectively paid for (by the other guy dragging/shoving) due to that ... (yes it's small, but it adds up over the course of a turn) ...

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 06:49 pm: Edit

Wayne wrote:
>>If a towed ship that is moving does not stop moving for the rest of the turn because it is not a non-moving ship, then the towing ship should not automatically tumble because it is not towing a non-moving ship?>>

A ship that is towing another ship with a tractor beam that breaks down automatically tumbles (G7.32). When a ships is towing a moving ship (G7.6), it refers back to (G7.32).

The rules about tumbling automatically are established in (G7.3223) for reasons (I dunno why?). The statement about the towed ship ceasing moving when the tractor breaks is because the ship is because the ship isn't moving in the first place.

There is nothing about having a tractor that breaks that makes the towed ship stop moving, if it was moving already. But (G7.3223) is the rule that establishes that a *towing* ship that breaks down automatically tumbles. And that carries over to (G7.6), tractoring a moving ship, 'cause (G7.6) says so.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 07:39 pm: Edit

Stewart

In normal situations yes. A ship that is not moving or able to move at a certain speed can certainly be dragged along by a ship that has paid more power and can move faster and "IS" moving faster as described in an example I gave earlier. As in a speed 1 Sublight being dragged across the map at warp speed by a ship running say speed 20. It now moves speed 10 and the sublight does also. But the speed 20 ship does not move the 20 Hexes it paid for while dragging a slower ship.

So if two ships each paid for 27 movement. Then they move 27. Pretty simple. Unless slowed down by a tractor....then they can move 30???? Um...no. No one paid for the difference...which is not 3 but 6 hexes of movement since both ships gained 3 hexes. In the 1 hex and speed 20...20 hexes...10 hexes was moved. With at the very end, a carry over into the next turn since both ships move on the last impulse.

And Axel...the answer is the same as a mid turn speed change...But gee...what if I have no warp power to do a speed change??? You Do not do a speed change. Pretty simple right? What if I have no warp power to gain extra hexes from tractor??? You do not gain extra hexes from Tractor. Math is easy. We are smart enough to figure out the requirements for mid turn speed changes...we should be able to do the same for adding speed from tractors.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 07:44 pm: Edit

Stewart, the situation isn't one where two ships are staying under tractor, but applying and dropping tractors at very specific times to switch their pseudo speeds to ones that move on impulses when their plotted speeds aren't scheduled to move then immediately dropping the link to then move when the plotted speed does move. It is a fairly arcane set of circumstances where it's applicable (often involving ships that have taken warp engine damage but have enough non-warp engine power for housekeeping and the tractors involved, otherwise they could just pay for the movement instead of relaying on the tractor tricks).

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 07:58 pm: Edit

Charles: But again, how do you enforce that from a rules perspective? When do you check for it? What happens if a legal attachment and dropping of tractors results in that extra movement that can't be paid for? *Which* extra hexes are cancelled for not being paid for?

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 08:20 pm: Edit

Charles, I think you need to understand that tractor tricks are not a bug, but a feature, of the game that I and many people here have been playing for four decades. I don't see it as a problem, and I suspect most others do not either.