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Quote:

Where is the Auto-Reject list currently?

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By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Wednesday, January 27, 2021 - 12:08 pm: Edit

Thanks, Mike.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, February 01, 2021 - 06:50 pm: Edit

Played a duel and took a Klingon HDW. Darn that thing is a beast. 34 power in a MC 2/3 ship.

Took drone racks in the OPT boxes and 4 admins in the NWO boxes. So many scatter packs. Mostly limited by how fast I could load the darn things.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Over in rules questions, Charles wrote:
>>Peter yes indeed...Move precedence is one of the most important aspects. Just like actually paying warp power to move is. And there is no significant trade off is the point.>>

How is there no significant trade off? Getting an extra move isn't helpful if you have to move before your opponent and then your opponent moves somewhere that puts you at a disadvantage. That is, what we call, in the business, a "significant trade off".

>>Also your tractor limit...yes that is true there is one.>>

It's not *my* tractor limit. It is a rule that you seem to be cavalierly hand waving away.

>>Anyway...I am going to drop this. Because it seems people are not thinking it through.>>

I suspect that everyone in question is thinking this through as much as is necessary.

>>As some will say that is insulting? Is it? I see it as you are missing the tactical implications most likely because you just are used to certain expectations and do not really believe this can be done.>>

I can't imagine that anyone does not really believe this can be done. I suspect that most folks involved in this discussion understand what this can be used for, realize that it is a mostly corner case situation that can once in a while pay off, a lot of the time it isn't going to accomplish that much, and it comes with a not insignificant cost (tractor use, power, giving up movement precedence, targeting restrictions, shuttle launch restrictions).

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 04:02 pm: Edit

"I can't imagine that anyone does not really believe this can be done."

Exactly this. No one is saying it can't be done, and to frame the argument that way is tantamount to outright lying. The disagreement is over the claims of how widespread is supposedly becoming and that it will totally destabilize the game.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 04:15 pm: Edit

Ok Peter...you seem hung up on my way of saying people are not thinking this through and seeing what can be done. I will say this...every comment you made seems to indicate you did not think it through because of how it would normally have "been" used and was used in the past.

Does any point you made have any real reason this does not work completely to your advantage? No. Other than the...I used a tractor and it cost me a point of power. Yes...that is true. The rest no. Other than in situations which would mean you should not be using this at all.

Now...here is what you seem to be missing.

Speed as far as the game is concerned. Normally revolves around when you move on the impulse chart. Cool. And it always should. But in this case, the impulse chart stops being a way to determine speed and becomes simply a record keeping simulation.

Here is what I mean. Your speed plot...tells you how many hexes you will move in a turn. When you move them is determined by the impulse chart. Straight forward and understood by all. Until you use this cheat? Bug?

Using this, you gain up to 4 hexes of movement for 2 points of none movement power. Is it possible on the 4 single scattered impulses that you gained the movement that it was critical to launch a shuttle, seeking weapon, or fire a weapon at only that moment? Sure. But if so you would not tractor right then and so it does not matter.

But speed is supposed to represent hexes moved. As I showed...with tractor tricks not only is that no longer true. But the laws governing the top number of hexes you can move in a turn a no longer true either. Maximum movement is 20. Because last turn I ran 10. Movement/speed. With these tractor tricks, my ship and another of my ships...working together, can slow way down...gain a better turn mode and increase the number of hexes I can move by up to 4 hexes above the 20 I can move at the very max I am supposed to be able to move.

Your answer so far has been that would be rare.
My answer is that would be every turn.

But if you do this you cannot launch, target, so forth so on. On that one single impulse the tractor was up yes. But since the second it drops you can do all that. It makes no difference since you had no intention of doing that in that impulse anyway or you would not have used the tractor. So absolutely no effect is made by using the tractor other than gaining a hex you cannot legally allocate or use a speed change to achieve.

And that is the real issue. If you could us a legal plot at any time in anyway to gain these 4 hexes, it would not be an issue. But you cannot do so.

Then you get one of the well known and simple results where when you slow down...your turn mode improves. That is a benefit without question and makes sense because you are slowed down. Except the reality is...you in no way slowed down. You increased actual speed as measured by the distance you traveled.

As in If I drive at 60 miles an hour...after an hour I have driven what? 60 Miles. If I drive at 60 miles an hour...slow down...what distance did I go...some where between 60 and less...caused by my slowing down. Right? Nope I went 80 miles because I slowed down below 60. That is not reasonable or possible. Other than in this game using tractors. And at the same time I could make more turns because supposedly I slowed down.

Add in another affect the tractor creates. The double movement caused by delayed movement. Now...I can not only improve my turn mode. But...I also can do a double side slip. Caused by my actually speeding up the number of hexes I would move.

There is never a requirement as with a mid turn speed change...to make my power output equal to the number of hexes I moved. That is a serious issue.

Now I will say this. For most people. Playing a single ship. This will never be a factor and can be ignored. The only time this matters is when you have at least two ships involved which does indeed probably make 60% or more of all games have nothing to do with this.

But I mostly play Campaign games. And in 80% or more of them we have 2 or more ships being controlled per player. Anyone playing two ships vs 1 ship...now has a tremendous advantage over them in the number of things they can do that no matter what, he cannot.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 04:33 pm: Edit

You said you were done with anecdotes, so where is your data? Why should we believe this is as widespread as you say or that it will have the catastrophic effect you claim?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Charles wrote:
>>Ok Peter...you seem hung up on my way of saying people are not thinking this through and seeing what can be done. I will say this...every comment you made seems to indicate you did not think it through because of how it would normally have "been" used and was used in the past.>>

No, I'm hung up on you saying this is an incredible scourge, and then explaining it in a way that seems to ignore, ya know, how the rules work. And then blaming it on people "not doing the math" and "not thinking it through".

You aren't making a particularly compelling (or particularly coherent) argument.

>>Does any point you made have any real reason this does not work completely to your advantage? No. Other than the...I used a tractor and it cost me a point of power. Yes...that is true. The rest no. Other than in situations which would mean you should not be using this at all.>>

If I use a tractor on an exact impulse that it is most effective to change speeds and gain a hex of movement, that can possibly be helpful. But doing so also costs a power. And a tractor. And likely restricts me from firing. And makes me slower, probably giving up movement precedence. And then after moving, I probably need to drop the tractor to avoid all these penalties continuing to haunt me. And then I can't be tractored again to continue doing this for 8 impulses. Yes, ship B can then tractor ship A and repeat it, but then they are both without the ability to tractor each other for 8 impulses. Making this a thing that can happen in narrow windows.

>>Using this, you gain up to 4 hexes of movement for 2 points of none movement power. Is it possible on the 4 single scattered impulses that you gained the movement that it was critical to launch a shuttle, seeking weapon, or fire a weapon at only that moment? Sure. But if so you would not tractor right then and so it does not matter.>>

I have no idea what you are saying here.

If you are trying to suggest that you can gain hexes of movement by tractoring someone, yes. That is true. But the tactical considerations of tractoring or being tractored often make doing this inadvisable or unwise. If you can pull it off once in a while and it works? Great! But it is hardly a giant, all encompassing issue.

>>But speed is supposed to represent hexes moved. As I showed...with tractor tricks not only is that no longer true.>>

It is exactly true in so much as it needs to be. You plot a speed. You move that many hexes. Until something wacky happens, and you finagle an extra hex or miss an extra hex here and there (see: moving 21 hexes with a maximum speed of 20 by sometimes moving 19; see: gaining a hex of movement by slowing down at the right time with a tractor beam; see: missing a move when you would have moved otherwise by accelerating to a higher speed with some reserve power), which happens some times. And that is just an artifact of the rules being as arcane as they are.

>>But the laws governing the top number of hexes you can move in a turn a no longer true either. Maximum movement is 20. Because last turn I ran 10. Movement/speed. With these tractor tricks, my ship and another of my ships...working together, can slow way down...gain a better turn mode and increase the number of hexes I can move by up to 4 hexes above the 20 I can move at the very max I am supposed to be able to move.>>

How often is this going to happen? Really? Such that it is going to make that significant difference in the outcome of a game?

I know you claim it is going to happen all the time. I'm unconvinced that this is the case. Ships are often moving too fast for this to matter. Ships are often too close to to their opponents to risk the targeting penalties. Ships often don't have enough power and/or tractors to use to do this enough for it to have a huge impact on anything. Ships often need their tractors to do other things.

>>Your answer so far has been that would be rare.
My answer is that would be every turn.>>

You do say that. Me saying it would be "rare" is me saying "It isn't actually going to be that useful most of the time. And the penalties/costs for doing so are more significant than you seem to want to accept".

>>But if you do this you cannot launch, target, so forth so on. On that one single impulse the tractor was up yes. But since the second it drops you can do all that.>>

Sure. But if you want that extra move to get a good firing solution on a nearby opponent, have a tractor on you is a problem. As is suddenly moving speed 5 or 22 instead of 20 and 30, when you want to get to the hex you want to get to but want to see where your opponent goes first.

Most of your argument seems to be ignoring the existence of an opponent who is doing things to you. Your opponent is moving. Your opponent is launching seeking weapons at you. Your opponent is firing at you. If none of these things are happening, then you can go nuts with crazy tractor shenanagins all you want, but then, what difference does it make? Flying around in open space just to show off the kooky things you can do with tractor beams doesn't do anything. But if your opponent is doing things to you, and getting things in the way of you, and firing things at you, and the things that are hindersome about this trick are a problem, then they are a problem.

>>Then you get one of the well known and simple results where when you slow down...your turn mode improves.>>

Yes. It is helpful to be able to make a tighter turn by slowing down with a tractor beam. But again, it requires a tractor beam, and power, and a ship that is right next to you, and a beneficial spot on the impulse chart, and a need to not want to shoot other targets the impulse you are in tractor. These things are not insignificant issues. Sure. When your opponent is 50 hexes away, they are not. But who cares if you make a tighter turn when your opponent is 50 hexes away?

>>Add in another affect the tractor creates. The double movement caused by delayed movement. Now...I can not only improve my turn mode. But...I also can do a double side slip. Caused by my actually speeding up the number of hexes I would move.>>

The double move doesn't give you extra moves. It gives you the moves you'd get anyway. Unless you drop the tractor, in which case you don't get the move you would have gotten. Sure. If two ships are tractored, and they get a double move, and one side slips, and then the other ship sideslips the next impulse on the double move, you get to sideslip twice. But then you also need to be tractored together for two impulses (which, again, has issues with targeting and move precedence), and you need to declare the second move at the same time as the first move (i.e. an impulse in advance). Which is yet *another* cost/disadvantage to this sort of thing. Unless, again, you are 50 hexes from an opponent, in which case, who cares?

>>But I mostly play Campaign games. And in 80% or more of them we have 2 or more ships being controlled per player. Anyone playing two ships vs 1 ship...now has a tremendous advantage over them in the number of things they can do that no matter what, he cannot.>>

So don't get caught 2:1. Games that have 1 big ship fighting against 2 smaller ships are generally vastly pro the large ship (i.e. a 150 point cruiser against two 75 point FFs, the 150 point cruiser is way advantaged). If they get a minor edge by being able to do this, more power to them. As they are at a disadvantage just for showing up already.

Like, here is the thing I'm not fully understanding here. Are you saying this is a problem 'cause you actually, seriously, see this happening all the time in play, and find it problematic? Or just 'cause you think it is silly that, in theory, a ship with a maximum speed of 20 can possibly end up moving 24 hexes in a turn 'cause it is with a buddy, and both the ship and the buddy ship are in the same hex, moving the same direction, have 2 tractors to use, have 2 power allocated to the tractors, don't need the tractors to do anything else, and aren't close enough to their opponents that the costs of using a tractor and being tractored?

And if it *is* something you see happening all the time, why are you just also doing it yourself, at which point, both sides are at a wash, assuming that the costs and penalties doing this are so easily hand waved away?

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 05:57 pm: Edit

Personally, I've known about tractor games for decades but I've played against people who use it much better than I because they are better starship (fleet) captains than I.
I still win some, I still lose some. But though I know about the rule, I never effectively mastered it.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 07:05 pm: Edit

Ok Peter I guess the problem you and I are really having is you still seem to feel this is not possible in a steady often and overwhelming way. I get that.

Hell I never believed it either till I have had a few players....Not all...but enough have learned and are learning to do this, that I am seeing speed 20 units. Never running above 20...simply easily outrun speed 32 F Torpedoes and reduce others so much that they were next to nothing.

Just as one example. I also understand your belief. That oh I used a point of power I might need for something else. I also had to use a tractor. But...that is the point. You are doing this as the turn developes and you have figured out your opponents starting speed. Could he have speed changes? Could he be doing other things sure. But once you see the need to do this. Then that is either a choice you make to run and avoid torps...as an example...or not run fast enough to avoid them....or ignore them and do something else. Can or will this work every impulse? Obviously not. Will you get all 4 movements of extra Hex every turn? Again probably not. But how many games have you wished you could be just one hex closer. I know I have. And this gives you that ability even if you are just gaining 1 hex instead of 4. And...it has the added benefits of better turn mode. So not only can you gain a hex. When you do you might could turn when if you upped your speed you could not.

This is not a win win win...concept. It has one minor real drawback...dealing with two small issues. That is should I use the point of power. And should I use a tractor which in many games never gets used anyway.

To me it comes down to gaining an unfair advantage and bypassing the rules. You keep saying gaining a hex you did not pay movement for is just part of the game. Ok where else can you do it? That is number one. Number two...is where else can you gain 4 hexes of movement in a turn without paying any movement power for it? Other than maybe a black hole lol.

The very fact, and it is a fact that two ships can create 4 additional hexes of movement with absolutely no other benefit should stand out as a this cheat should be removed.

Now we end up discussing so many points that this becomes a bit confusing to try and cover them all. Tell you what. Pick your reasoning about any one thing I have said and lets break that down.

No one is saying this makes the game unplayable. But it changes things drastically in fleet battles.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 07:21 pm: Edit

>>No one is saying this makes the game unplayable. But it changes things drastically in fleet battles.>>

Sure. But everyone can benefit from this completely equally, and, as noted, it comes at a not insignificant cost.

On top of that, if you are doing this with smaller ships (DW/DD/FF/whatever), it is way less energy efficient than just, ya know, going faster--you spend 1 energy (and use a tractor and suffer targeting issues and have to be at a beneficial spot on the movement chart) to gain 1 hex of movement. Where if you just used that 1 power to move faster, you'd have gained 2 or 3 moves (even with unplotted mid turn speed changes).

Yes. There are 100% advantages you can gain by putting a tractor on a friendly ship at the exact right moment, and gain a hex of movement, or get a tighter turn. But everyone can do this with the exact same level of effect (i.e. no empires at all are better or worse at this. Except maybe the Bolosco, who have special tractor beam powers. And the Andros are probably bad at this, as they don't have tractor beams and have to give up a TR to do this, and are probably moving speed 31 anyway), and if it is a thing that deeply warps the game, both players can benefit from the deep warping of the game identically. At which point it just becomes an issue of aesthetics. And probably not worth changing the rules over.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 07:24 pm: Edit

The horse is dead, buried and likely fossilized by now. Further floggings will not revive it, nor will CPR and an AED.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 07:31 pm: Edit

I'm thinking a DNR followed by an IED.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 08:15 pm: Edit

You have documented all the times you have seen this happen and presented it to the designers as hard reports they can action on, correct? As opposed to expecting them to make a sweeping change to the game based on one persons say so because of one specific game they lost.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 08:19 pm: Edit

Lol....Fine...we can drop it.

I will make this last thought clear as to why I have an issue with this.

I could show you rule after rule under movement that limits your ability to move having restrictions applied because of speed last turn. Because it requires warp energy being used or 1 Impulse. And the answer I hear from yall is so what if every other movement rule in the game is based on spending movement based power, this one slows you down so it does not matter.

The truth is while the game does not state your speed is now higher, it actually just went way up. The game does not say that as you slowed down but your speed not only did not in anyway slow down it increased. The game in every other instance says pay for extra movement by Warp and/or Impulse but somehow a tractor can pick you up by your bootstraps.

Now maybe you guys have no issue with that. I do.

Anyway, I have already learned exactly how to do this. I am even good at it. But I also see how it unbalances things when used often. And in the battles I fight. That would be almost all of them because I am pretty much only fighting using multiple ships.

So...I made the points that this violates every movement rule out there. You say so what. My point is made lol. Bury it as you always do. But this is still wrong not because that is my opinion. But because of the rules that say you need to spend warp or impulse energy to move a hex.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 08:32 pm: Edit

We know exactly why you have an issue with this, that's not the problem. The issues are:

1. You have no data to present, just an anecdote and unsupported assertations.

2. This has been a known possibility for 40 years, yet never has been an issue before.

3. Your explanation for the above is that the entirety of the SFB player base since the 1970s is collectively just that incompetent.

4. Correcting this to your satisfaction will create other artifacts in the game, which you have gone willfully avoided discussing in any good faith or detail.

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 08:48 pm: Edit

In all seriousness (my last two posts were jokes), I kinda like to say, arbitrary fixes can (as alex says) create other problems in a game engine which is as nearly perfect as possible.
An attempt of an analogy follows:
A person on a surf board can only paddle so fast.
If he catches a small wave (i.e. tractored by a small ship), his speed greatly increases but once the wave collapses, he goes back to normal speed.
If he catches a large wave (i.e. tractored by a DN), his speed really greatly increases but once the wave collapses, he goes back to normal speed.
Conversely, the wave (or parts of it) actually also is impacted (albiet to a level no one can really measure which makes this analogy not a very good one, but its the best I can do for the moment), but if the surfer wipes out or leaves the wave, the wave continues until it finally collapses.
Okay. That's a terrible analogy in regards the impact to the wave but part of it works . . . I think.

By Dennis Surdu (Aegis) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 10:21 pm: Edit

Is all the tractor talk about getting burned by "ye ole tractor ladder" tactic? It has been part of the game for 30+ plus years and has served me well in a fleet match or two when I needed bump in movement/speed to get my ships into range 8. All experienced players are aware of how you can "game" the tractor rules every now and then, but there is a price to be paid often for doing so.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 10:56 pm: Edit

Lol...call me weird or what ever. I dont mind...I can be. I also am not ticked or mad or anything.

I have this strange affliction. It involves rules staying true to the rules. There are of course exceptions. The number of opportunities created by tractors to violate these rules is immense. The fact that most people have never done so. Many have no idea how. And it can only be done with multiple ships obviously limits it.

Alex and his silly anecdotal crap...which is what it is since this is a known issue is just that. Silly. He knows this can happen, has and does. Now as to how often it happens.

Well that is hard to say. In normal table top games? I have no idea. I have not played at a table in decades. The online version is superior in everyway other than the human face to face interaction.

So...all I see are campaign games right now. I am involved in 2 directly. Probably a third soon. And have intel and watch games in two others. So...is this happening a fair amount? Yep. Is it destroying the game? Nope. Does it cause an imbalance? At times for certain. How terrible an imbalance? Not that bad. As of now.

How bad will it get? No idea. I see a lot of games. I played one two games ago...and lost because of having a single ship pursued by two which could and did use the increase speed trick...gaining 3 hexes each turn till they caught up to me.

I would have almost certainly beaten them since they had some damage and short ranged weapons and I had 2 PPDs and phaser 1s to their phaser 2s and Fusions. So...that is but one game.

Over the last weeks I have had T bombs avoided using it. Which I think was reasonable. Did not involve increased speeds.

I was a Rom and watched ships outrun torps. Taking very reduced damage. Enough so it changed that games outcome probably.

I listened as a guy complained last night about someone using increased movement at range 30 lol...and how long it took and the delay in play to get no real benefit at all.

Anyway...right now it has the potential. Not the reality to cause some damage to the game integrity in my opinion. We can certainly admit that it does change things if used well. So I made a post and question asking why we do not find a way to make this as it was originally intended. A way to make two enemy ships not lose movement.

I feel this got way out of hand and may become a serious issue if everyone is forced to learn this and act on it when in multi ship fleet games. But that is just me. I also as mentioned just have an issue with movement without movement power required.

So...as I said...we can drop it. Most are not involved in SFBOL...so they may never see this at all. To them it will never matter a bit lol. As always, I will deal with it, learn, adapt and continue winning and losing games but having fun.

I hope everyone has a great time and enjoys SFB. It is and to me always will be the best tactical game ever created.

Chuck

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 11:49 pm: Edit

And when people tried to point out why (the cure being worse than the disease essentially - creating even more artifacts and adding additional complexity to the game that outweighs the impact the current interactions have), rather than engaging with that discussion and considering how it might be fixed and what that would involve (which is a great game design excise), you just kept repeating that this will totally wreck the game, that you see it happen everywhere, and that this *must* be fixed entirely on your say-so with zero evidence except the one game you lost because of it.

The problem with any solution is that it has to address any and all times that extra movement is generated, regardless of it is done intentionally or not. It has to address what happens when the cost can’t be paid. It has to account for the fact that the hex isn’t necessarily an extra hex on the impulse the movement is made, as that relies on what else happens in the rest of the turn.

Are you suggesting that SVC and SPP have never considered this particular issue and potential solutions? That in the, by your own admission, in the best tactical game ever made they just have had this huge decades long blind spot!

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Sunday, February 14, 2021 - 01:15 am: Edit

Glenn Hoepfner,


"An attempt of an analogy follows:
A person on a surf board can only paddle so fast.
If he catches a small wave (i.e. tractored by a small ship), his speed greatly increases but once the wave collapses, he goes back to normal speed.
If he catches a large wave (i.e. tractored by a DN), his speed really greatly increases but once the wave collapses, he goes back to normal speed."

I like that analogy of the tractor movement gains.

I am also playing in some of the Campaigns that Charles Carroll is involved in. I have run into a few players that are using tractor tricks in some of the games (and it can be timed for good effect, some have worked in the game and have got good results, and others have not been successful).
I note the players that are likely to use this tactic and I keep that in mind when doing my EA and planning tactics in the scenario.

all good

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Sunday, February 14, 2021 - 03:36 am: Edit

Yeah Glenn it does not always work as planned...some still have much to learn lol. But hey...at least we are playing and having fun.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, February 14, 2021 - 10:01 am: Edit

Charles wrote:
>>I could show you rule after rule under movement that limits your ability to move having restrictions applied because of speed last turn.>>

Sure. I understand this. But it is an aesthetic argument, rather than one of game balance--yeah, sure, it does seem weird that a ship with a maximum speed of 20 can possibly manage to move 24 hexes in a turn through judicious use of a ship in an adjacent hex (that probably needs to be moving faster, and probably needs to be a different movement cost), use of 4 tractor beams, use of 2 points of power each, and all the risks/penalties involved in being tractored for those 4 impulses. But a lot of the time, this isn't even going to be relevant ('cause the ships in question can move any speed they want, and just paying to move faster, even with an unplotted mid turn speed change, is going to be cheaper, easier, more efficient, and a better plan anyway).

And as previously noted, even if it does turn out to be a brilliant, effective tactic a lot of the time, all sides in a battle [*] can do the same thing with the same level of efficiency. No empire is any better at this than any other (again, except for maybe the Bolosco, but who cares? Has anyone ever actually even *played* the Bolosco? [this is meant as comedy]. And the Andros are probably at a disadvantage in this arena. But they, again, are usually moving speed 31 anyway, and have disdevs). Tractor beams tend to be pretty averaged out among empires (i.e. most ships average out to about 2 tractors each), and everyone tractor beams the same.

[*] Yes, if you are playing some campaign system that regularly results in lopsided, unbalanced fights, things will be weird and not balanced, by definition.

>>I was a Rom and watched ships outrun torps. Taking very reduced damage. Enough so it changed that games outcome probably.>>

I'm going to guess that the campaign games you are playing use a floating map. Which is fine, but likely makes the issues you are seeing seem worse. But then, floating maps tend to generally warp the game in weird ways anyway, and I'd suggest that the actual problem here is not the use of tractor beams but the floating maps. But if my assumption here is incorrect, I apologize for assuming.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Sunday, February 14, 2021 - 10:36 am: Edit

I thought this "tractor trick" was settled the last time this was discussed.

I have used other tractor tricks.

1) Using the tractor to slow down a ship so that it is within its turn mode. In my case I wanted my main weapons to face my opponent quicker than normal.

2) Using the tractor to drag shuttles to their destruction.

3) Using the tractor to give a crippled ship a chance to escape certain destruction.

4) Playing with black holes most certainly forces a ship to move twice in one impulse.

So, in my opinion, fixing this "corner case" by requiring a pair of ships to never exceed its allocated movement will harm these four examples.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, February 14, 2021 - 10:42 am: Edit

John wrote:
>>So, in my opinion, fixing this "corner case" by requiring a pair of ships to never exceed its allocated movement>>

If that was a possible solution to this issue (which, to be clear, I don't think is a significant issue that needs fixing), how would one even word such a rule that was consistent and make sense?