Question regarding:

"The Tholian was not in web, the Roman was in web."

Since the Romulan failed the HET and was forced to tumble because he was tractoring the Tholian, what does the web do to a tumbling ship? (I do not have a rule book handy.) I have not heard of this situation before.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 08:31 pm: Edit

Kosta - Yeah, it's a known artifact, and if there were a workable solution, one would imagine it would have been applied by now!

ETA: Charles, consider the following situation:
We each have a ship, at range 1 and moving parallel to each other at the same speed. I decide I don’t want you to get away from me, so I tractor you and you accept the tractor. This just so happens to be the impulse before our shared plotted speed is scheduled to move, but one of our pseudo speeds move. We conduct that movement and doing so triggers a mine I did not know about off a down shield, with the resulting internals destroying the tractor that was holding you, releasing to resume moving our plotted speeds and having moved an extra hex. Neither of us have any reserve warp or impulse in our batteries. What do you think should happen?

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 10:11 pm: Edit

"..just so happens to be the impulse before our shared plotted speed is *not* scheduled to move..."
sorry, kind if a key word to leave out

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 11:25 pm: Edit

John Stiff,

In the game, the web had dropped before the HET was done.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Friday, February 12, 2021 - 11:33 pm: Edit

Alex lol...the issue is never with enemy ships...we will not work together to chase down some other ship. That is why the rules were set up this way. We are at odds with each other and do all we can to cause each other problems...turns...HETs various things to drag each other into seekers or mines.

The problem only happens when two ships of the same fleet or on the same side combine their movement to achieve movement they have no right to.

When you and I fight. We want every advantage we can get. And during the fight it is possible since we are not co-operating, that you will move and I will move a hex or two more than we should. That I may have an issue with but it almost never happens....and when it does it is usually countered by the next couple of impulses. Where we stay tractored and miss movements. That is why these rules exist in the first place.

But now we are seeing...and maybe you saw it for years but I certainly did not, ships flying across the board. Outrunning Speed 32 torps while running speed 20. (Maybe not totally but certainly reducing damage a great deal. The turn mode of course is also affected because you are supposedly going slower but doing this you are not in anyway going slower but faster.

Anyway, it almost never happens that after tractor is dropped you end up having moved a number of extra hexes. So...my issue is with exploiting what I see as a bug. Sure. It could and maybe once a year did happen in a battle between enemies. But if the Tractor stays attached more than 3 impulses there is no increase in speed. Because you miss movements. Only running 1 or two impulse tractors can give you extra speed and only if you drop tractor the second you got the boost. Failing to drop means you lost it.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 12:41 am: Edit

Charles, the thing is if it "violates" the rules, then to cure that violation means the rules have to make it impossible, not just impossible in situations based on intent. They have to define it mechanically - So in a situation where one ship tractors another and than loses the tractor immediately thereafter in a window where an extra hex is thus generated by ships that don't have the necessary reserve engine power, *why* it happened is irrelevant. The rules have to define what happens in that circumstance.

So, in the circumstance, what happens?

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 02:02 am: Edit

An Excellent point Alex. Yet....as things stand, we have a totally unbalancing rule that totally ruins most if not all Seekers.

Here is a simple example. I am at range 2...on imp 1 to a DW(.5move) and a CW(.667move) Facing directly away from me. My F Torps are now up and I can launch. I launch a Plasma Fs because when the turn starts they are running at the max 20. The ran 10 all last turn. Seems pretty straight forward. On impulse 6 we have a 20 point impact Of any and all F Torps right? Cool....So I launch. On Impulse 17 my torp finally catches them having finally moved the 2 Hexes needed to hit them more than they moved. They never changed speed.

Now yes...they spent 4 points of tractor power. And outran completely any number of Fs. They would have reduced Gs to 10 An S to 15 and an R to 25. So they obliterated any Fs completely...and reduced all other torps by half.

So if you are ever behind someone...you have to bolt. To have a decent chance to even hit them at all. They ran at speed 30 for the first 13 impulses. Maybe because the rule was never changed this is reasonable? Even though they cannot legally move more than 20 hexes because of the speed requirement limit. Yet...here we are.

Is there a fix that does everything imaginable under every possibility? I have no idea. I just know that this breaks the game for all seekers. Hell you put T bombs in front of them...and by the time it comes up they have moved past it. The Feds are 12 Hexes from you and you are going to shoot turn and move away...and they move 12 straight times. Closing the gap way before you can move and get easily into overload range. Offensive...Defensive. This works every way possible. It works best with ships of different move costs.

Anyway. I understand you point. Finding a perfect fix...yeah that would be lovely. But we need to at least find one that stops this.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 02:31 am: Edit

"I just know that this breaks the game for all seekers."

Just now, after 40 years of the finest players of this game knowing about this interaction yet some how completely missing how to use it so?

"But we need to at least find one that stops this."

Based on what data?

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 03:10 am: Edit

The data I am starting to see. Which is incomplete. But...we also are seeing a number of online campaigns in SFBOL. And because those of us who play there....are being exposed to this. It is severely skewing the games. Some more than others obviously. Many have yet to fully grasp what to me are obvious changes to how fleets interact. As people become more familiar to something that as you said everyone has known...yet no one used. It becomes a lot different when playing as any plasma or Drone race find themselves at a disadvantage. Can this be countered? Maybe in time. But as I just showed, in my last example. Even speed 20 can run speed 30 and only pay for about speed 22 or 23. Which changes all power curves. Alters ranges where you can successfully launch attacks. Even causing attacks to strike home that up till now were not possible.

The main reason this has not taken off is no one really started doing the math and seeing the benefits in fleet actions. A tremendous number of people play mostly Tourney games or single ship encounters. Which this has no affect at all on. So sure...it has been around and mostly forgotten for decades. Now it is showing up. And people throughout SFBOL are aware of it. Will they all jump on the band wagon? Who knows. But for campaigns involving fleets...this becoming a pretty bad issue. It went from no one knew. To now most know. And while yeah, in many cases it is not a factor. Fleet games are becoming very different. Is this really a bad thing or just an evolutionary thing? I have no idea. But...based on what movement should cost. And what you can do with this instead...it certainly should change fleet games immensely and it will hurt all seeker races as it does it.

But as you said...maybe we need a committee to be formed and years of careful testing and thousands of games to see that yep...this is not following the power required rules for movement, which is obvious now. Anyway...I have made the case this is becoming an issue. You feel it is not because no one ever really worked out the math to make this as devastating as it is becoming.

This just my opinion. Some people love this....that would be those that have worked out the math and are taking people apart. Maybe it is just another tactic. But I have played for 40 years and am just seeing it used like this.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 11:17 am: Edit

Anecdotes are not data.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 11:57 am: Edit

Hi Wayne,

"In the game, the web had dropped before the HET was done."

OK, so this is a hypothetical question now. Let us assume that web still trapped the Romulan. Does the web do anything when the Romulan tumbles?

Thank you,

John

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 12:10 pm: Edit

Back in the 90s I used to run SFB in my area. We typically had multiple ships per side. We played tons of games where people *could* do these tractor tricks.

This whole issue spoken of here was not a major concern.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 12:27 pm: Edit

A ship trapped in web can perform an HET, but cannot perform erratic maneuvers. So a ship trapped in web can suffer a breakdown from trying to do an HET, but would not suffer from tumbling as a result, only a breakdown and the resulting random shield facing and being reduced to speed 0, plus the damage from the breakdown.

It does not fling itself out of the web or spin in place.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 12:39 pm: Edit

I wonder how many games still have someone answering rules questions after 40 years.....

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 12:41 pm: Edit

Lol....Alex...I made my points. Those who say they had no issues...well...maybe the people you played with were not smart enough to figure out how to totally screw almost every tactic used in the game over. The list of changes this produces to tactics is immense once you start figuring out what is needed. T Bombs? Ship turns...will not move the next impulse. Drop T bomb 2 Hexes in front of it. Shield 1,2 or 6 is going to be hit. No way around it except ED. Oh wait...tractor...we both move next imp. Side slip....side slip...(Double allowed side slip) what T bomb? So forth so on.

Just because the people you played with Alex were not competent enough to work out how to totally game this bug and destroy most of the rules and tactics this game is based on does not change what I am saying.

I am seeing a whole lot of people starting to use this. And it is severely changing the game to one where certain races are hurt because their weapons become very down graded.

Anyway I have made my points. You can forget me caring about anecdotal...and non scientific studies...and the Committee for the Preservation of rules as they are and have been forever. I dont care. I do care that this is affecting and could affect a lot of things as I see it happening more and more.

Like you said...you and I have played for decades...and there were no real issues. I agree. Till now.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 12:44 pm: Edit

Charles wrote:
>>The problem only happens when two ships of the same fleet or on the same side combine their movement to achieve movement they have no right to.>>

These weird little things that can happen with tractors are generally corner case situations that generally are difficult to take advantage of, and if you can take advantage of them to gain a minor benefit, these minor benefits come at a cost:

-You have to use a tractor, which often has a lot of other useful uses.

-You have to use power. Which you generally never have enough of.

-The tractored ship has penalties on it, even if only for a few impulses.

-The tractoring ship slows down and may or may not come out ahead here.

Yes. Once and a while, one can tractor a friendly ship, and the way the speed chart shakes out, the tractored ship gets to move on an impulse than it wouldn't have otherwise. And then next impulse, the tractor is dropped and it is back to its regular speed, and has gained a "free" hex of movement and moved more total hexes than it paid for (even if the tractoring ship didn't move to put it somewhere). Yes. That can happen. But it doesn't happen much, is hard to do, and certainly has costs (see above). And really isn't worth worrying about.

I mean, you can use unplotted speed changes to increase your speed and then miss a move that you would have made otherwise too. By speeding up (won me a tournament game at least once in my life). These things. They can happen. And it isn't really a big deal.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 12:54 pm: Edit

Peter I would have agreed with you till you take the time to study this as I have.

Did you see the comment about how what you just said was totally destroyed by reality?

Speed 20 ships. Never change speed. Cannot move over speed 20 because of having run 10 last turn. Can run speed 30...for 12 straight impulses. That is not a minor issue. If you could n a tournament game...use some rule that bypassed reality...and were able to pay for speed 20...but run speed 30 and then finish the turn at speed 20 for 2 points of power...and were fighting someone that had launched plasma you could not avoid but now will avoid....not to mention your turn mode went from 4 to 2 during this time. Would you? Every time?

That is what can and is being done as just one example. It is not picking up a single movement. On some super rare occasion. It is possible every single turn. And while it may not be possible every single impulse. It is enough so that you can do it at least 4 times every single turn gaining 1 hex of movement and a better turn rate and double sideslip potential. Now if that is not an issue to you I would be surprised.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 01:05 pm: Edit

The situation that led to the tactic,
launching multiple plasmas/seeking weapons at a ship, is just as easily countered by a WW....
Though in this case, probably didn't have one ready....
Tactics designed to defeat WW should work to counter the overall affect....

If the fleet is more than 2 ships and he wants to break them up, let em....

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 01:15 pm: Edit

>>Speed 20 ships. Never change speed. Cannot move over speed 20 because of having run 10 last turn. Can run speed 30...for 12 straight impulses.>>

And yet it can't actually move speed 30. It can move some speed slower than 20, and occasionally get pushed another hex somewhere. The ships in the tractor pile are moving at a slower speed than they would be otherwise. They are giving up movement precedence. They are giving up the ability to shoot at things other than the ship tractoring them. The ships tractoring them are using power and tractors.

I have an FF (1/3 MC) moving 20 ('cause it was moving 10 last turn). It is tractored by a CA (1 MC) moving speed 30. The FF is now moving speed 5. The CA is now moving speed 22. Both of those situations are likely less helpful than if the two ships were just moving their normal speeds. And the FF can't shoot at anything. And the CA is using a tractor and power. Is it possible that this particular situation will result in the FF moving at a time than it wouldn't have otherwise that will be helpful? Sure. Will it result in the FF moving, what, 25 hexes instead of 20 if it stays like this all turn, when the FF has. Maximum speed of 20? Yep (but will also mean that the CA only moves 27 hexes when it paid for 30). But it all comes with a cost. And is difficult to actually benefit from.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 01:28 pm: Edit

Peter...not even close...which is my point...

You are not seeing this as I have had it done to me and have done myself after doing the calculations.

A DD and CW....both speed 20. On impulse one..no one moves. Impulse 2 they move. Trac each other.
Speed changes to 11 and 8. 11 moves. Drop trac...both now move 2 straight imp. Trac...speed drops to 11 and 8...ship moves. Drop trac. Both ships move for two imp. Trac...so forth so on. Only reason this stops working is because you run out of tractors.

Sure for 1 impulse when you have them tractored one of the ships cannot launch or fire. My point is...do the math. See what can be done...make plans and act on it. And while technically you are running less than 30. So the hell what? You are moving at a pseudo speed of 30. While your movement speed is 11 and 8. No one gives a rats behind about what you speed is considered to be in the order of movement. That just says when you will move. Not how far you will move or how many times in a row.

This bypasses everything built into the game to limit movement.

"But it all comes with a cost. And is difficult to actually benefit from."

Comes with a cost? Yeah 2 points per ship...

Difficult to benefit from? Not at all. Just do the math. It is no different than planning a mid turn speed change. If that is too difficult for people then they have math issues. The only difficulty is accepting how screwed up this is...so it seems. You have not seen this done to you over and over and how easy it was done. I have.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 01:52 pm: Edit

I mean, if your position involves having to insult people individually and the collective player base over 40 years, maybe the merits of what you are arguing aren't as strong as you think they are.

"You can forget me caring about anecdotal" but that is literally all you have provided. One actual game and vague claims about seeing it happening more and more.

If it's happening that much, document it. Provide actual examples from actual games, corroborated by the players involved. I mean you say you have been studying this, so as part of making a case to make such a significant change to the rules, you would have that ready to go, right?

Cause at this point, until you do, you just sound like someone that is salty over losing a single game because they got caught off-guard by an artifact of the game system (and this is every bit as much an artifact as the ship limited to speed 20 by acceleration limits moving 21 hexes by a 19/20 plot and you are apparently fine with that).

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 01:54 pm: Edit

>>A DD and CW....both speed 20. On impulse one..no one moves. Impulse 2 they move. Trac each other.
Speed changes to 11 and 8. 11 moves. Drop trac...both now move 2 straight imp. Trac...speed drops to 11 and 8...ship moves. Drop trac. Both ships move for two imp. Trac...so forth so on. Only reason this stops working is because you run out of tractors.>>

(G7.322) says that if a ship drops a tractor voluntarily on another ship, it can't attempt to re-establish a tractor on that same ship for a quarter of a turn, which vastly limits the thing you are describing. As does the sequence of the impulse chart.

>>No one gives a rats behind about what you speed is considered to be in the order of movement.>>

?

Movement precedence is one of the most important advantages in the game. Moving extra hexes while moving slower is a *significant* trade off.

>>The only difficulty is accepting how screwed up this is...so it seems.>>

It is a thing that can happen. And can sometimes be useful. But comes with a significant cost. And then if it is beneficial is often random, based on where things fall on the impulse chart. I suspect that you are seeing it as a vastly larger problem than it actually is.

That being said, this is probably not the correct forum to keep discussing this in (as it is for rules questions), so if you wanna bring it up somewhere else, I'm sure plenty of people will be happy to debate this.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 02:19 pm: Edit

Alex this is about the 10th Game that this has happened in involving just me. Not counting another dozen I have seen where it happened. I am playing in multiple online campaigns on SFBOL. You want documentation just to make you happy. I am stating what happened. And how it affected play. The fact I saw it does not mean you have to. But if you will only believe it when it happens to you or is somehow documented...which would be saying on such and such a date this happened and do that for ever one of the two dozen games I was in or saw...and some how that makes it more believable than it happened because I saw it. What would your answer then be? Would you need me to have 1 2 10 people say the also saw it happen?

Peter yes indeed...Move precedence is one of the most important aspects. Just like actually paying warp power to move is. And there is no significant trade off is the point. Also your tractor limit...yes that is true there is one. But...again...The tractor situation was move 1. Ship A tractors ship B...(now must wait 8 impulses) But gained 1 move. Now they move two more. Then ship B tractors ship A...and they move one Hex. Then they move two more. Now the next imp this comes up you have to skip. Then move two imps. Now Ship A repeats as does ship B. But now you can use a speed change. Or just let one move go by because you will get the total of 4 hexes per ship increase just having to let one normal none movement happen.

Anyway...I am going to drop this. Because it seems people are not thinking it through. As some will say that is insulting? Is it? I see it as you are missing the tactical implications most likely because you just are used to certain expectations and do not really believe this can be done.

When or if someone who reads this starts consistently and easily doing it to you. Maybe that will change your mind as it did me.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 02:39 pm: Edit

"You want documentation just to make you happy." That's literally what data, as opposed to anecdotes, *is* though. Not some guy on a message board saying this is happening all over the place and will destroy the game and if you don't believe him then it's clearly because you are incompetent and can't do basic math.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Saturday, February 13, 2021 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Change of subject.

Did we ever define if...T bombs can be set to go off with the skip count and definitely go off accordingly...as in 1 bomb set to go off no skip. Second to skip 1. 2 ships enter...no ship escapes a bomb. The first bomb goes off as soon as it sees any ship. The second bomb ignores the first ship it sees. So...do both bombs automatically go off? Seems like they should.