Charles wrote:
>>So if you tractor a friendly ship You can not use it to add hexes to your movement. (You are required to see if it would.) Or something simple along those lines.>>

This is a completely unrealistic thing to try and enforce in a rule.

There is no way to know if attaching a tractor to a ship will result in it moving more hexes than it paid for or not. If I am a DD moving speed 20, and I tractor an FF on impulse 2, my speed 20 drops to speed 12, so I move on impulse 3, which gains me a hex. Unless I stay tractored on impulse 3, and then lose a hex on impulse 4, at which point, I'm even. And then if I stay tractored again, I lose a hex.

So to determine if a ship is going to "gain movement", you need to make assumptions about what the ships are going to do in the future, that may or may not actually happen.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 05:42 pm: Edit

Well Peter I disagree in that...you know...you are not supposed to move this impulse. And you know next impulse you will move.

Your plan is to tractor this impulse...because that will cause you to move. Then drop tractor so you move again next impulse. While your ship may blow up the following impulse due to something. At this moment in time you "knew" for a fact you just gained a hex of movement. Which is the whole reason you just did this.

Or...you plan to use this to slow down and turn. Maybe then you did not realize it. Maybe. Or you use this rule to move twice so you and your sister ship can double side slip around a T bomb.

Anyway you look at it. You knew, or could have known that was happening. What happens later is not important. Any more than I changed speed in mid turn...and then lost all my speed increased hexes as I got tractored by the enemy. Who cares. You made the speed change to get the extra movement. You want the power back now because you did not? Its the same thing.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 05:45 pm: Edit

I’m just pointing out your own claims about you recognizing this supposed massive problem when no one else has, even though it’s been a known element of the game system for decades.

I’ve already demonstrated it’s not that simple though, as “if it would” relies on future events that may or may not happen. Friendly tractors interfering with fire control regardless of the size of the tractoring vessels can be explained as safety interlocks or such in the background, and is a passive effect - what would be the explanation for why two friendly ships have to spend that power but enemy ships don’t, even though the effect is the same? What if you tractor an enemy ship to gain that movement for yourself? What about a multi-player free-for-all where two people decide to temporarily team up against someone and use this to their mutual advantage against a third player?

And you still have yet to actually address what you expect or even imagine the penalty for not having the necessary power to be.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 05:50 pm: Edit

Let me put this in a single ship perspective.

In say a tournament game. Would it be a tremendous boost to be able to tractor yourself and gain 1 hex of movement instantly for a point of none movement power. And be able to keep doing this till you ran out of tractors or power. Not having to worry about speed changes...which you could also do if needed to move even more hexes.

Because this is exactly what is being done by using the rule as is. You are bootstrapping. Or as was mentioned in mid turn you are rotating another ship. But at the same time you are rotating your own ship forward.

Forget arguing that you cannot tractor yourself. I know that. The point is, that a single ship cannot do this. It takes two. But the effect is that of tractoring yourself. The real difference is you get two extra moves created by the other ship. You moved him two. He moved you two. Anyway just a different way to look at it. This way you just move yourself two and do not need him.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 05:51 pm: Edit

“Anyway you look at it. You knew, or could have known that was happening. What happens later is not important.”

At this point you are basically saying ships in a tractor link have to pay at the time of movement for every hex they move while under tractor in an impulse their plotted speed doesn’t move, regardless of it they end up moving more than their plotted speed in hexes over the turn or not,

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 05:54 pm: Edit

Alex I am simply spit balling possible solutions that are barely fleshed out. Once it is agreed the solution could work in some way, then you sit down and work out how to finalize it, what exceptions are needed, if it cannot be done because of some other issue.

Does the answer I gave address any of the problems. If so great. Now lets look at what it did not address. Not throw it all out because it might not work under, as Peter and others put it, a corner potential issue that almost never could happen.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Ok Alex addressing your last statement. There is no way...what you say should ever happen. We do not use loss of speed do to damage in almost any game. So why would you not move the hexes you expect to? Tractored by the enemy? You still moved every hex you could for the speed you have as adjusted by his tractor. The hexes you gained occurred prior. So they were not paid for. Unless you pay for them as I suggested. The ones you lost...were adjusted by his tractor.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 05:59 pm: Edit

I’ve been listing all kinds of things your solution doesn’t address and you keep avoiding answering them.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 06:12 pm: Edit

“So why would you not move the hexes you expect to?”

The game rules cannot determine what a player expects to happen or not. They can’t see or define what is happening in players’ heads, just what’s on the map and on the SSD’s, EAF’s, and other required records. They have to apply regardless of player intent - and we are back to my case of the two ships under tractor, with one hitting the mine. Do the ships involved need to pay for the hex moved under tractor or not according to you?

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 06:23 pm: Edit

I apologize if I missed what you were saying there is a lot to go over lol.

Ok I missed the tractor and mines example. I assume? You are saying a mine went off. Breaking the tractor due to damage after you paid for the movement according to what I have said.

Were we doing the double move or single? I will assume each ship was staying tractored another move...and now are not. So they lose the move.

If...we are doing it the way I suggested...as in when you pay to use the tractor, then yep...you lost it because the tractor was broken. Same as if you paid for a tractor to tractor a drone and lost the tractor because it was destroyed. No difference at all.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 06:30 pm: Edit

Why would the movement have been paid for as you said at that point? What about the game state at the moment Ship B moves in impulse X+1 shows that that hex of movement is going to be an extra one above what was plotted and paid for already? You cannot assume anything about what the ships might be doing in the future, not even the next sub step of the impulse procedure.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 06:40 pm: Edit

Charles wrote:
>>Well Peter I disagree in that...you know...you are not supposed to move this impulse. And you know next impulse you will move.>>

Sure. But then if you remain tractored (in the provided example) for another impulse, you lose the hex you gained the previous impulse. So you only gain 1 hex of movement if you are only tractored for one impulse, but don't gain 1 hex of movement if you stay tractored for 2 impulses.

So whether or not you gain total hexes of movement is dependent on what happens in the future, but whether or not you can do something in this proposed rule (i.e. create the tractor link) is based on what is happening now. As such, the rule is based in "what is the hypothetical intention of the player", which is impossible to make a rule out of.

In the rule you propose, my speed 20 DD tractors the neighboring FF on impulse 2. This drops its speed to 12. You say "Are you going to gain a hex of movement from this?". I say "Nope. As I'm going to keep the tractor on for 2 impulses". Am I then forced to keep the tractor up for 2 impulses? What if you don't ask me in the first place? What if my ship then gets hit by drones, takes some internals, and loses the tractor? Am I cheating? Am I lying?

How does any of this hold up as a rule that is enforceable?

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 06:44 pm: Edit

What I meant was I paid for it as I did it. Or...I had pre paid warp power for it because I planned to do it. At least at some time in the turn. As in put 1 or two warp into tractors. Same as I put into bats.

Not sure where you are going with your statement unless it is your assumptions.

I am just saying paying for the movement...as required...would work fine no matter what happens in the future.

On a side note I do not like this answer because it still does not address the real issue. Moving more hexes than you legally can in a turn. But...at least this way, we can write it off as another tractor related change caused by slowing down....while actually speeding up. But at least warp or imp paid the cost.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 06:49 pm: Edit

Peter...interesting example. Sort of a corner thing as you say lol. But...we are talking about using the warp because you expect to gain the movement. Same as you paid for a speed change because you expect to gain the movement. Emergency Decel. Gee I did not gain the movement. Someone tractored me...did not gain the movement...tractor broken because tractor destroyed. Did not complete gaining the movement. A lot of things could happen. None of them matter. You pay for it just like a speed change. You expect to get those hexes of movement. Do you? Never know till later.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 06:53 pm: Edit

So you are proposing *all* movement that occurs under tractor on impulses a given ship's plotted speed isn't scheduled to be moved has to paid for at the moment that movement occurs.

And if it can't be paid?

"On a side note I do not like this answer because it still does not address the real issue. Moving more hexes than you legally can in a turn."

But what is happening *is* legal, otherwise they wouldn't need to be a new rule to stop it. And that you don't like your own answer is perhaps a tell of why such a rule has never been made - because SVC and the staff, likely decades ago, considered and discussed this very topic, worked through it as you are now starting to, and came to the conclusion that such a rule would be exceedingly unwieldy and create even more exploitable artifacts in play than maintaining the current status quo on the issue.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 06:55 pm: Edit

Charles wrote:
>>I am just saying paying for the movement...as required...would work fine no matter what happens in the future.>>

Your beef seems to be with *gaining* hexes of movement. It is perfectly possible to get tractored, gain a hex of movement now, and then lose a hex of movement later (i.e. my speed 20 DD tractors an FF on impulse 2. If we are tractored for 8 impulses, till impulse 10, I only move a total of 3 hexes, instead of the 5 I paid for, so I'm losing hexes. If the FF was also moving speed 20, it is moving speed 8 for those 8 impulses, which may or may not add 2 hexes to my movement, meaning I, at best, move the 5 hexes I paid for, but at worst, I move only 1 hex in total...). So saying "You have to pay energy if you gain hexes of movement" is 100% based on what happens in the future.

And what happens if you don't have reserve power? You can't use your tractor beam? What happens if you tractor someone, will gain a hex next impulse, then get shot, lose your tractor beam, and then don't gain the hex of movement? Did you still need to pay?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 06:59 pm: Edit

Charles wrote:
>>But...we are talking about using the warp because you expect to gain the movement.>>

You can't make a rule that depends on someone's intentions. I tractor my neighboring FF this impulse. It will gain me a hex next impulse. Is it my *intention* to gain a hex of movement? Is it my *intention* to keep the tractor link for 2 impulses, so I don't actually gain a hex of movement in total?

You can't make rules that require reading people's minds. Yes. I know. If one is trying to game the system, and use the tractor beam rules to gain hexes of movement, that is what they are trying to do. But there is no way to definitively *prove* that someone is trying to gain hexes of movement when they attach a tractor to something. If you say "Is your plan to gain hexes of movement?", they can just say "No?", and then after a few impulses, maybe they have gained a hex of movement, maybe they haven't. Do you then have to pay energy? Even if later on, they end up being tractored again, and lose total hexes of movement?

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 07:05 pm: Edit

Peter...your first example is the way tractors are supposed to work. A way to increase the movement of a slow ship. By another ship paying a lot more movement cost than it gets to cause the slow ship to be able to move. I have used that in my examples. A cruiser grabs a sublight ship and moves it a number of hexes. Now why is this not figured into my explanation? Because the ship that paid for everything lost movement as we expect from a tractor being attached. At no time in your example does he gain movement. The ship that gains movement is the slow one.

And I answered Alex the same way. You cannot know you were going to take damage to a system any more than you paid for a tractor to grab a drone and lost it when your tractor died. Do you also want the power you spent on the drone tractor refunded? No....its just an expense of the game.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 07:09 pm: Edit

Peter my rule would have nothing to do with reading mind. Only with what happened.

The person paying for the movement...did not need to read his own mind. He made a choice. Paid for the movement and there ya go. You looking back later can say...hey you used that tractor trick to gain an movement. Where did you pay warp or impulse in tractor for it and how did you pay it. Reply comes back lets look at my EA. In notes on that turn you see I used a reserve warp bat. Or...I marked tractor power as 1W in the tractor box.

No mind reading required. You as Captain making the choice know what you are doing.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 07:17 pm: Edit

Anyway...there are a number of ways to make rules screwed...

You start at speed 0. Tac, tac and now go to speed 10. Now you use these tractor tricks to gain 4 hexes of movement. Giving you an effective speed of 14. All I am pointing out is this violates a number of rules involving movement.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 07:18 pm: Edit

It's not about what you or I as players know, but what the rules know. The rules can't know how long I plan to hold a tractor, so how can they assign costs based on what I'm planning?

In your example, what if the cruiser tractors the sublight ship planning to tow for a long enough period it would indeed loose a lot of movement, but after a few impulses in the enemy does something unexpected and the cruiser releases the tractor not to gain the extra movement you want to prevent or enforce a cost on, but because the player feels it's now tactically disadvantageous to maintain the tractor - and the timing of these events *incidentally* results in an extra hex be gained on an impulse before the tractor the tractor is dropped - does it still have to pay?

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 07:19 pm: Edit

"All I am pointing out is this violates a number of rules involving movement."

If this was violating rules you wouldn't need to be asking for a rules change to stop it.

You start at speed 0. Tac, tac and now go to a split speed plot that allows you to move 11 hexes while never having a plotted speed above 10 at any point. Are you ok with this?

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Actually it seems I do Alex.

Rule...you must pay for all movement hexes with warp or impulse power. (If two ships tractor each other...See sublight example I have given in which one ship pays the cost to move for both.)

You cannot exceed the number of hexes moved without warp available. Such as I cannot Het at speed 27. So forth so on.

What we have is tractor rules which violate these and others. There is no doubt they do. There is also no reference under tractors or the movement rules which say all movement rules are to be ignored if a tractor is involved.

So I will just disagree with your belief.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 07:41 pm: Edit

You disagree with my belief that the rules allow this, as demonstrated by the fact that you feel there needs to be a rules change to stop it? If it's violating rules, just tell your opponents they can't do that next time.

Which specific rules will you cite to them?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, February 15, 2021 - 07:46 pm: Edit

Sometimes someone simply refuses to accept that they lose and desperately point out a rule that they demand be changed so that they wouldn't have lost.

Y'all know that guy, everyone experiences them sooner or later.

Charles Caroll is that guy. Just ignore him and move on.