Charles wrote:
>>Cheating happens if there are cheaters in a game you play.>>

I'm not even talking about *intentional cheating* here. I'm talking about the idea that you are proposing a rule idea that hinges upon "what is this persons intention now and in the future that may or may not be the same as what you think it will be when you get there."

If you make someone pay for "extra movement" the impulse they get it (i.e. if you plotted speed 20 and you end up moving on impulse 3), even if in the long run, you end up moving the same or fewer total hexes than you plotted in the first place, use of tractor beams become prohibitively expensive for any reason (You can't tow crippled ships out of combat, as they can't afford to pay for the extra movement. What happens with PF flotillas?).

If you wait till the end of the turn to see how many total hexes they moved, and then make them pay retroactively, what happens if they can't ('cause they spent all their reserve power and their batteries got blown up)?

You can't just say "Oh, that speed 20 DD is moving on impulse 3, 'cause there is a tractor on it. It has to pay for an extra move now", as it may or may not actually be getting a net extra move at that point.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 08:35 am: Edit

Charles wrote:
>>If for any reason you gain movement you did not pay for. You lose it the next impulse that you should move. That would eliminate tractor tricks.>>

What defines "gain movement you did not pay for"?

My speed 20 DD tractors my buddy the FF on impulse 2. I'm not moving speed 12. Speed 12 moves on impulse 3. I move on impulse 3. Is that a hex of movement I did not pay for? I'm moving speed 12. Speed 12 moves on impulse 3. It is only an *extra* net gain hex of movement if I then:

-Drop the tractor on impulse 3.

-Move speed 20 on impulse 4 and for the rest of the turn.

-The movement from the FF didn't counteract my move on impulse 3.

And "what is the next impulse that you should move"? If I'm still tractored, the next impulse speed 12 should move is impulse 6. Do I miss that move? In which case, I'm starting to *lose* moves that I paid for. If I stay tractored on impulse 3, I'd miss the move I'd get on impulse 4 if I was speed 20. If I let go of the tractor then, so I miss the impulse 5 move of 20, even though I already missed the impulse 4 move for 20?

Here is the thing. Trying to invent a "simple" rule to fix things in this context is unlikely to ever work the way you think it is going to (see: the SFB rulebook being 500 pages long, as the result of lots of "simple" rules to fix things). This particular issue that you are looking at is *incredibly* complex, relative to most of the other rules in the game. And likely making a rule that fixes what you want it to fix, covers all possible cases and corner cases, does so reasonably logically (and by that I mean "the rules follow some logic", I'm 100% unconcerned with "realism" or whatever), and does so in a way that doesn't completely torpedo what you'd consider "legitimate" uses of tractors would probably require a whole separate tractor beam based rulebook, and then *still* it would probably have loopholes and flaws.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 08:50 am: Edit

I'm not convinced this is really a problem. Peter seems pretty convincing on that point. But... if it is a problem, why not discourage it by increasing the penalties for being tractored by a friendly ship?

Consider, by way of analogy, tractoring drones. If you tractor an enemy drone, the drone is still in play. You either (if you wish to avoid being hit) keep tractoring it until it runs out of endurance, or you kill it with weapons fire. But if you tractor a friendly drone, it immediately loses tracking and is removed. Why can't the Kzinti or Klingons (in the period of slow or even medium speed drones) launch a bunch of drones, tractor them, and then charge the enemy at high speed, allowing the drones to hit an enemy that would otherwise simply outrun them? But the rules forbid it. The (friendly) tractored drones are simply lost.

So if this is a problem (as stated - I'm not convinced), one solution might be to greatly increase the penalties on a tractored friendly ship. Suppose, as one possibility, the firing penalties for being tractored last much longer if the tractoring ship was friendly, due to handwavium-induced interference with th fire control system. This wouldn't prevent the tactic but would definitely make it riskier. And for the most part it would have minimal effect on uses of friendly tractoring that everyone agrees are legitimate, such as dragging a crippled friendly ship to safety.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 08:59 am: Edit

Alan might certainly be on to something.

Maybe "If tractored by a friendly ship, the tractored ship has Disrupted Fire Control (G6.68) while it is tractored and for 4 impulse from the point that the tractor is dropped".

That is actually simple, has some internal precedent, and certainly penalizes ships for using crazy tractor shenanagins inside of firing ranges.

I mean, again, I don't think this is a problem that needs fixing. But if it did, a period of Disrupted Fire Control is probably a reasonable solution, rather than trying to make ships pay for "gained" movement.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 09:01 am: Edit

Peter I realized I needed one simple addition to the rule as I stated it that works in every case, has nothing to do with intentions and only considers how much movement you have paid for at the time.

The rule now would be.

So long as you are under tractor standard tractor rules apply. Once tractor is dropped, at that moment you calculate if at this moment in time you have gained a hex of movement. If so your next movement is canceled to stay within your paid for movement.

So example. #1

Moving speed 20. 2 ships are not scheduled to move next impulse. But one of the your two ships if under tractor would be. So you tractor and now both ships move. If you drop trator at this point. And your ship has gained a Hex of movement. Your next scheduled movement is canceled.

Example #2

2 ships same movement cost see an impulse they will not move. They are to move this impulse. If they tractor they will move this impulse and the next because of delayed movement, they will now both move this impulse and next. If at the end of the two impulses they now drop tractor, both ships will lose their next movement. Because both ships gained a hex of movement at this moment.

The point is, if you maintain your tractor over time it will slow you down and you will never gain movement. Only if you tractor and drop it is it possible to gain movement. So as long as you are under tractor, this rule is ignored. But once you drop tractor at that moment, check and see if you gained a hex of movement. And that requires almost no effort.

Example. I should move on 21 and 23. Instead I moved on 21 and 22 and will now move on 23 since on 22 I dropped tractor or my other ship dropped tractor. Therefore I gained a hex of movement in these 3 impulses. I lose the hex of movement in impulse 23 to bring my paid for movement back into line.

Easy to use. Requires only glancing at the movement chart and seeing what your speed should have moved. And asking am I still under tractor. If not. Apply rule.

Now if anyone can find a way around this. Please do so. That is the purpose of having this kind of debate. I credit Alex with his insightful constant yeah but...what about if this, or this or this or this. So Alex or anyone. Find a situation that makes it not work. Remembering while under tractor. There is no new rule.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 09:08 am: Edit

Alan good idea. But since I believe this stops all possible abuse of gaining hexes you did not pay for, and also works in all cases including when tractoring an enemy ship. I feel my answer eliminates all issues.

It still maintains the while under tractor to a friendly, the tractored ship loses Fire Control.

Has no effect on an enemies fire control.

But stops anyone from gaining excess movement.

Problem solved.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 01:25 pm: Edit

Do you get a refund if you've lost a hex of movement? If so, where does it go? If it's going to batteries, is is considered reserve warp? If it goes to speed, do you move at the higher speed for the remainder of the turn?

This is unwieldy at best and clunky / disruptive at worst. KISS, people! Leave it alone!

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 01:36 pm: Edit

I'm chiming in again.
There were a couple references mentioned but not detailed enough IMO.
Based on the naysayers of the existing rule of unearned movement (my words, my interpretation), lets consider this.

According to the naysayers.
A zero speed shuttle cannot be tractored to speed 6 or death dragged.
Fighters cannot land with tractor help.
A speed zero ship cannot be towed.
Any unit at speed zero (whether by choice or lack of power) cannot be towed including enemy units.
etc.
etc.

All because those speeds are unearned.

You don't get it both ways. Either tractors affect movement or they don't. You can't change the movement chart. You can't effectively count hexes of future movement or intent (or non-intent such as damage inflicted on the towing unit). I doubt this discussion will lead to any binding rule changes (though nothing can be done about making house rules).

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 02:27 pm: Edit

Mike...your comment has no merit lol.

If you are tractored. You are supposed to lose hexes of movement because it slows you down. That has always been the idea of the tractor. So no. You will never get a refund.

The issue which it seems most people do not believe really happens enough to be an issue is that while you are supposed to slow down, you actually speed up. We have what becomes an unlisted pseudo speed increase.

You are now potentially running speed 30 for a number of impulses, while technically being at speed 20. And even for turn mode being at speed 10. Which creates a number of issues.

Now...I was like most of you. It's no big deal. Happens hardly ever and really does not matter. Then suddenly a couple of people started seeing things no one else either sees or thought was important. And we end up with the rule becoming an issue. Where people gain up to 4 unpaid hexes of movement during a turn. Can run speed 30 for 8 to 12 impulses.

Can run speed 27 but achieve speed 30 for the entire turn. Can walk off and leave behind speed 32 torps while officially only running speed 20. And being able to turn as if at speed 10.

Now maybe people cannot really understand how this changes the game in a serious manner. I do. It happened enough to me to realize the issue. So I brought it up.

Since then I have been attacked lol...called names...been told over and over no one understands...and there was no possible fix.

I found a fix that totally eliminates any extra Hexes and so fixed the issue I had that others say does not matter because it is not happening to them. I get that. Until the impossible happens to you a number of times. It is not an issue.

But...after being told over and over nothing I did or said would fix it. I found the answer. And since then No one has said oh that will not work and here is why. For pages and pages, I had people tell me why charging for hexes moved would not work, and every other thing I suggested would not work. Yet...here we are. Not a peep. Not a oh that will not work and here is why.

Instead I get statements stuff having nothing to do with ships gaining movement.

Glenn sorry but your comments have absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. And at no time has anyone made a single suggestion you said. This is purely about ship interactions that are using this to gain movement. The speed zero actually supports what I said because it is a ship paying double movement cost to move a ship faster than it can move. Which is exactly what the tractor rules should do. And the shuttle rules were never mentioned because shuttles are not ships and those rules do not add speed to the shuttle as explained in the rules dealing with them.

So as I stated a few posts ago. Find an example of where my solution does not work. Anyone?

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Two observations---

If a players has to do this on a regular basis----
He has become a "One Trick Pony", his tactics stink...

If a player keeps getting the action used on them,
something in their tactics suck.... Probably because they are a "One Trick Pony" and his opponents are onto that trick....

For Sure: Don't forget--- IT'S A GAME......

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 02:38 pm: Edit

So using Overloads on you makes you a one trick pony and you suck got it.

This is not a tactic. This is a violation of the movement rules that requires you to pay warp or impulse to move. It bypasses that because you supposedly slowed down. Which works for turn modes. But when you actually gain hexes without paying for them nor doing a speed change that goes against the ideas the game is based on.

All I have done is made it where that does not happen. You cannot see why this unbalances the game? I get that. Until it starts happening to you its hard to see. And it only happens in multi ship engagements. Many people play mostly tourney so they never will see this.

Anyway, I was told to find a solution to this problem and that is why we are in this section. I found one.

Prove me wrong. Not say you dont think it was needed. Not you dont see a problem.

Prove me wrong.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Just popping in to point out this is a bold-faced lie: "I found the answer. And since then No one has said oh that will not work and here is why."

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Really Alex??? Who has given a reason why it will not and does not work?

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 02:54 pm: Edit

You know, that could be construed as a sort of personal attack, Charles. If I were to retort "...and I find your proposal has no merit, either -- so I guess we are even. LOL.", then I would be likely facing a rebuke and/or a timeout from Jean.

Let's keep it civil, OK?

I notice two glaring holes in your logic here.

First is your willingness to demand energy from a ship that gains hexes, but your unwillingness to refund any from a ship that loses hexes. Where does the energy go?

Second, is that you are looking at individual ships. You aren't looking at the *system* of tractored ships. Have you considered that maybe, *just maybe*, the extra hex of movement is being paid for by the other ship, or only shows up due to a rounding error (i.e. fractional hex)?

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 02:58 pm: Edit

Charles, you may not realize the point I'm trying to say. If you start making changes to a well established game with the mechanics of a tractor beam, you're opening a whole new can of worms for other changes (of which I think you'd have no real chance of success, but the owners always encourage feedback and ideas so there is no fault in you in trying).
Since you cannot change the movement chart, your only other option is to add/subtract rules which will fix a 40 year old trick no one until now has chosen to address.
I've even played this game when we had a 24 and 12 impulse chart. I was sad to see those go, but that was a long time ago.
I've played this game for decades with players that had this "trick" all figured out.
Every ship's captain as a trick up their sleeve which makes them great captains.
Every rule has a trick (loophole?) that can be used and thwarted.
In my opinion, this discussion is merely an exercise of futility. But a fun one.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 03:05 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Anyway, I was told to find a solution to this problem and that is why we are in this section. I found one.

---

---

Quote:

So using Overloads on you makes you a one trick pony and you suck got it.

---

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Ok Mark lol...The refund idea could be applied. But then It is understood and has always been that when you get tractored, you are now paying for your ship and occasionally another, so your having been slowed is what a Tractor is supposed to do.

With that said, It was never stated that a tractor was or should be used to increase your speed without ever paying movement energy. In a temporary situation involving two enemy ships fighting to the death, some variances could occur offsetting movement times in such a way as to cause ships to move outside of their normal movement. This is expected.

However, some people figured out that by using a tractor, you could cheat the system.(Game the rules....employ a bug to give you an improper advantage. Whatever you want to call it.) Where they never would pay the required movement energy that you have to pay in some way to get a hex of movement.

My solution, simply corrects that cheat, bug or what ever you want to call the loophole and brings the game back to the point where you move a hex. Someone somewhere paid for it.

Now your suggestion that the other ship may have paid for it has been taken into consideration and proven it does not happen. I will go into detail if you wish.

Anyway, all my solution does is make the rules consistent on what moves a ship. Which is movement power. It also eliminates non speed changes that increase your speed to a much higher rate for a short period of time. And which can be piggybacked to give an increase every few impulses. Again without a requirement to pay any additional movement power that is requires by other rules to gain movement. It also breaks the 8 impulse to change speed rule. The last turn you ran 3 so are limited to 13 rule to name a few other rules affected by the cheat/bug.

All my solution does is take the gained hex of movement. And make it take place when your actual movement would have happened. And since it has already happened. Which is evident by you having gained a hex of movement. It means when that already moved impulse arrives. You have already moved and no new movement occurs.

This does not require math, or anything difficult. Just a glance at the impulse chart and you can see when and why the ship did not move.

So a very none invasive solution requiring nothing but a simple look at a chart. And no extra moves that cause a number of rule issues.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 03:37 pm: Edit

Lol Glenn. I get your points hehe.

And yeah I played since the 80s.

The problem which you may have started seeing but since I have not seen you in the latest campaigns run by Frank or even watching them...is that some players are using very advanced forms of this. Legal according to the rules. But that change the game pretty drastically in a number of ways.

Now am I right that it as an example it degrades torps tremendously to the point that bolts become primary because your ability to hit is unlikely if you launch...and...the bolt will do more damage if it hits that the torp would when it caught you.

And yes this is happening more and more now. Where torps launched at a speed and range where they would hit within 5 to 10...hit at 15 to 20. And that was without a HET or speed change. So to me that is a serious issue.

Anything can be accepted and worked with and you adjust tactics to at least attempt to handle these things. Like deciding Bolting is your main choice because a torp catching someone has dropped to next to nothing.

So am I right? Or just a kook? Consensus says I am a kook lol. I am good with that.

I was also told if I wanted to really do this come up with a solution. I tried a few thoughts and got shot down. No biggy. My latest answer though, addresses every complaint about my previous suggestions by getting rid of them. And simplifying this to a way anyone can do it instantly.

But yeah the discussion is fun if nothing else.

By F Michael Miller (Fmm) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 04:13 pm: Edit

Charles Carrol:

From your post 02/16/2021 2:27 PM:
If you are tractored. You are supposed to lose hexes of movement because it slows you down. That has always been the idea of the tractor. So no. You will never get a refund.

Clearly not true. If my speed is 0 (or any speed where the psuedo speed is greater than my practical speed), I will speed up.

This is an artifact of applying a discreet solution to a continuous problem (breaking up a continuous movement plot into 32 discreet segments).

This is the way the game works. You're free to use whatever home field rule you want in your games, but this is the way the game works and it's not likely to change.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 05:03 pm: Edit

Clearly totally true lol

Michael your ship...does not simply speed up. It is sped up by a second ship which is paying his movement cost and yours to cause your ship to increase speed. So there is no hexes gained without paying for the movement with movement energy.

What happens with the tractor boost as it is being done, is no extra movement energy is paid. Instead any energy can be used.

Now it is certainly possible you could pay warp or Impulse, as in reserve power to activate tractor. But it is not required. You could have assigned warp energy to tractor in allocation.

There are a number of ways we discussed to give warp power to make it semi legal. Which most people thought was a bad idea and so do it. But hey. It was a way to at least involve movement power.

But one of the Bugs that is now seen is two ships with a max speed of say 27 each. That is all the warp and impulse they can generate, using tractors can both move 30 hexes in a turn.

Now as should be obvious, you cannot ever move more hexes than you have movement power. Unless you have a third ship go fast enough to grab both and drag them at a higher movement rate than 27. Which cannot happen.

So while the I got towed faster than I can move is a normal tractor result. This adding movement to all ships above their max speed is being done by exploiting this bug.

Hope that answers your idea with a reason why I have an issue with this.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Charles: what happens if I come to a halt after gaining my "extra move"? Do I have to pay for a dud movement point when I finally start? Or does it eat my first TAC?

And are you going to ban tractor rotation which is also movement not paid for by movement power?

And do you want to ban the much more common tactic of getting a speed 6 shuttle to move 7 hexes/turn by going speed 5 for part of the turn?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 05:14 pm: Edit

Charles wrote:
>>So long as you are under tractor standard tractor rules apply. Once tractor is dropped, at that moment you calculate if at this moment in time you have gained a hex of movement. If so your next movement is canceled to stay within your paid for movement.>>

It isn't impossible that this particular tweak could reduce the effect of gaining moves from friendly ships tractoring each other. I haven't thought about it long enough to figure out where this doesn't work (and there probably is a place where it doesn't work, but maybe not?).

But you really don't think that creating a situation where ships can now selectively cancel moves won't cause different problems?

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 05:39 pm: Edit

Jim...

According to the new rule mod...you would lose a hex of movement if you gained one. So...since you stopped. There is no pay for a move. That was based on your total moves paid for in a turn. So you Move...ED...and are stopped. You no longer have movement so you no longer would or could lose a move.

Why would you ban tractor rotation. It is not considered movement. It only happens before movement or anything else at the start of the turn.

As for the shuttles...again that is not part of a tractor being used to generate extra movement. Nor does tractor landing or rotation of shuttles have anything to do with ships gaining movement by using a tractor which they did not pay movement for.

Hope that helps.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 05:49 pm: Edit

They are not in anyway selectively cancelling anything Peter.

They already got their move. That is the point. Look at the examples I used.

Lets use the one where you move on Impulse 21 and 23. But using a tractor trick you also now move on 22.

So you paid for 21 and 23. Yet you are moving on 21, 22, and 23. All this does is reduce your movements to the amount paid for.

While yes...you gained a movement 1 impulse sooner than you should. You do not gain a movement one impulse soon and then also get your movement again in 23.

Paying for what you get is a main factor in the game and for movement. It has to be from Movement power. Other wise why do you not change speed using APR? Because that is not movement energy. Why when you wish to HET does it have to be Warp/Impulse power you pull from reserves. Or allocate?

Because to move it costs movement energy.

So you use a tractor. That does not require movement energy nor does it result in a speed change. Therefore since you did not pay for the movement with movement energy, you cannot have the movement any more than you would claim but I paid with APR and should get to make a speed change.

Anyway, that is how the adjusted rule would work. You can see it immediately. I should move 1 or 2 hexes. But move 3. The Impulse chart makes this clear and easy to see. Therefore since I am supposed to move twice. I can only move twice. Last move does not happen. I could make that move work. But then that requires that I do an actual speed change and put the movement power into the new speed.

Which you certainly could do.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Tuesday, February 16, 2021 - 06:40 pm: Edit

Thinking about it earlier today..
Another analogy to the movement thing...

NASCAR drafting at Daytona/Talledaga...
Not even physically attached and does
give more movement than the accelerator /
RPMs would normally give...

This is a real world example, of more movement than engine producing power...