Very well articulated Peter.

And I agree with you on every point you made. My issue is not with that this can be done. But with how it is done and under the rule it is done. Which makes many other rules become violated.

People will say but they are not. Yeah...they are. Putting on the brakes by grabbing someone does not create a speed increase that does not show as a speed increase. Doing a speed increase after impulse 28 is not legal...unless you use a tractor trick. Having to pay movement energy is required unless using tractor tricks.

As far as how useful these tricks can be, as with any tactic and rule that will depend on the player and how well he can work out what will do him the best good at the time he needs to do it.

There are some people, who because of one person in the groups I play with on SFBOL who has developed this well above anything I have seen in the 40 years I have played, is making it required to learn how to do these things or be at a disadvantage. (I complemented him last night on his ability to see, implement and extrapolate benefits from a rule that most people do not see the rule as able to do.)

Once he started all the things he saw it could do, and it was a learning process. It became obvious to me that it degrades plasmas the most. So Plasma races while this is in effect will have more issues than ever before.

The rest is improved tactics and abilities other people will not have since they have not studied it enough. Which is why we have people starting to learn lol.

So yes...this is often not helpful. Any more than any other rule is often not helpful. But where it is helpful. It changes normal rules pretty extremely. So much so that some races get seriously hurt.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 02:18 pm: Edit

Charles Carroll:

Just out of curiosity (honestly, I am not attempting anything, I just want this question answered) what are the "many other rules become violated"?

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 02:20 pm: Edit

Charles,

All of that is totally reasonable. And I don't doubt for a second that it harms plasma more than anything else.

But plasma is always harmed by anything that lets you just run away from it. Open maps, big maps, opponents that can run at 31 and still fight back. Yes. Being able to get 2 or 3 extra hexes out of a move plot by virtue of tractor beam shenanagins is going to make it harder to hit with plasma. But not really any more than if that target was just moving faster anyway (the difference between "moving speed 30" and "moving speed 26, but gaining 4 extra moves via tractor shenanagins" is pretty minimal to the plasma, and likely less efficient for the ships involved anyway.

Any situation where the opponent can run, and run fast? Plasma is difficult to use. I don't know that the tractor shenanagins are the thing making it harder for plasma.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 03:50 pm: Edit

Charles,

"It would though cause the sublight, if moving at speed 1 to not get the move on impulse 32. But even so it effectively gained a none movement paid hex of movement even using my rule."

So you also want to punish impulse movement??

Note, that one could substitute a ship that is not moving but has warp power and tractors. In this case, you could not "punish" the ship using your rule. (I wish I thought of this example earlier. Better late than never.)


Jim,

"To resurrect John Stiff's example: A Fed CVS (MC1, 4 tractors) is going speed 8. "

Thanks!! This is a better example.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 04:45 pm: Edit

John lol. I have no argument against your example. In fact using it. If you read back some posts you will see I realized that a large fleet can conduct B10 races if it wanted to and move a B10 at up to speed 24...across a map without the B10 paying a single point of power and without it causing a ship to slow down that grabs it.

So that is a great example. Not exactly as to why mine fails, which deals with two ships cooperating with each other to gain tactical advantages in combat situations and simply running a ship that can barely move much faster, which just using normal tractor rules and taking the penalty would do.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 04:47 pm: Edit

And Peter your answer seems to miss the problem.

Speed 20...not 26. But for 7 straight impulses running as if speed 32. So not a single missed hex of movement at speed 20. How much degrading occurs just from 7 straight moves when at 20 there is normally 2 to 3 moves you do not get?

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 05:10 pm: Edit

Mr Petrick I have never assumed you were being mean, snide, insulting or anything else when you ask me to explain something. Just to be clear back lol. I appreciate your answers even if on occasion, I disagree.

I have actually brought this up with examples in posts scattered through these pages and pages of responses. Bit I will certainly reiterate them possible missing something.

Ok first and foremost.

In the rules, under speed changes. Allocation and anything having to do with getting a ship to move. The rules are specific. You have to apply warp or Impulse power to cause a ship to move a hex.

It could be said that a tractor causes a ship to move and does not do this. But a normally used tractor that slows the ships down does indeed pay for the movement. Not only of itself but of the other ship. Which is why it slowed down.

This rule bypasses all movement requirements. And realistically I mean all of them. You end up never having to pay for gaining a hex of movement. Something the mid turn speed changes for ships specifically address as being wrong. And corrects. If using mid turn speed changes to drop speed, increase speed, drop speed to gain a hex. You have to pay as if you had moved the higher speed the entire time. (Shuttles and the like not paying for movement can bypass this.)

In allocation, you have to pay warp or impulse. Not APR or Standard Battery left over from last turn in order to gain movement hexes. But using a tractor, which requires no movement power, just any power, you can gain "Hexes" of movement. 4 or more. All without paying any movement power.

Speed changes. The tractor slows a ship down. But...when it does, the power moving it is still the same. So that is a reasonable response to doubling the amount of energy required to move the ship.

But yet with tractor tricks, we can add movement at a time we are supposed to be slowing down. The issue is when this happens it is not considered pseudo speed. As in you went from 20 to 32. Or some faster speed that moves now and next impulse. So not only did you actually increase your speed for the next 2 impulses. You decreased your turn mode. And can often turn in half the time required for just your speed. It could be even sooner for your actual increased pseudo speed.

Now since the rules do not actually address what happens here in any meaningful way. They seem to simply accept that a speed increase for no power, Moving more hexes for "Both" ships than either has power to produce, gaining a turn while increasing effective speed, and being able to do a speed increase in impulses where speed increases are not allowed such as 28 and higher is just all because...your ship slowed down because a tractor was used.

So yes. I see all of the above as violating a large number of rules.

Hopefully this will help you see my over all issue.

Add to it the way you can actually outrun a plasma at...for just one example...never running faster than speed 20 officially. When the plasma would hit you within 5 impulses and you do nothing but use tractors to outrun it. I see that as destroying the viability of launching plasma and ending up having to bolt as the only way to hit with a plasma.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 05:44 pm: Edit

The only thing that drives me nuts as a plasma Player about the Tractor tricks. Is the a imp 31 tractor. Followed by a delayed move.. regardless of speed as every one moves on imp32. Then the ships move on IMP-1 then run at max speed and run out the torp. When I timed the launch so it would be 1 hex from them on imp32 and hit on imp-1. While giving them that range 8 overload shot getting my Plasma to hit them sigh. Having to rethink when to launch plasma and trick them into eating the real ones.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 05:45 pm: Edit

Charles wrote:
>>Speed 20...not 26. But for 7 straight impulses running as if speed 32.>>

Well, as if speed 31. Unless you maintained the tractor over the turn break from impulse 32, when everything moves and you got a double move.

And the specifics of Speed 20 vs Speed 26 are irrelevant (26 was just an example for "a speed that can be speed 30 through tractor shenanagins). To move 7 straight impulses at speed 20, you just need to be in tractor and moving at pseudo speed 12 for the correct 2 impulses. Yes.

But you could also just be moving speed 28 (or 31 or whatever) and do the same thing. For likely less power. And fewer potentially hazardous restrictions. And without using tractors that you could be using for something else.

>>So not a single missed hex of movement at speed 20. How much degrading occurs just from 7 straight moves when at 20 there is normally 2 to 3 moves you do not get?>>

You won't miss a single hex of movement at speed 31 either. And depending on the ship sizes, speed 31 is probably cheaper and easier to make happen.

>>Add to it the way you can actually outrun a plasma at...for just one example...never running faster than speed 20 officially.>>

That you are moving faster than speed 20 official isn't really relevant. You could move speed 20 and do a lot of complicated tractor shenanagins to make it seem like you are moving speed 31. Or you could just move speed 31. Which is likely cheaper and easier to do. You are running from plasma, so the turn mode doesn't really matter that much. Being speed 20>12 is worse for movement precedence than moving speed 31.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 05:58 pm: Edit

If the Executive Developer of a game that includes a clear, concise reference for every rule asks for examples of the rules supposedly being violated, then actually citing the specific references will make for a much clearer case.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, February 19, 2021 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Charles Carroll:

I must apologize for being unclear, and your answer was not what was sought, I am asking for a listing of all of the "Violating a large number of rules". A listing of all the rules that it violates, I understand what you are stating. I want to know what other rules you believe it violates besides the rules on movement.

For instance, if you are applying tractor tricks in an asteroid field, you would use effective speed the actual number of hexes that the unit moves during the turn" to figure asteroid damage. Is this rule violated?

I am not arguing, but I want to know what is the list of rules that are violated?

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Saturday, February 20, 2021 - 12:31 pm: Edit

It has been well established that the plasma races have a lot of trouble fighting on a floating map. It is best to decline combat and move on.

However, the disruptor and photon torpedo races do well. It is a war of attrition. My Fed opponent was most patient against my Gorn. On average, a full squadron's worth of proximity photons would take down a shield and do internals from range 30. And this is without tractor tricks.

So a single ship plasma race should not fight two smaller ships on a floating map, especially if they use tractor tricks. Bolting is not worth it. And sabots are likely neutralized if the two ships are careful. This true without tractor tricks.

Charles, you have given me an idea. My Jindarian Rock Ships could use your tractor tricks to go faster! It is likely a "surprise" that will work the first time. After that, one's opponent can counter it.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, February 20, 2021 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Oh, stop whining! Plasma is easy to use on a floating map!

How to use plasma on a floating map, in one easy lesson: Ally with the Tholians.

A number of years ago I played the Tholians in a (non-historical) strategic campaign and allied with the Romulans.

Webcasters + heavy plasma = useful synergies...

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Saturday, February 20, 2021 - 02:05 pm: Edit

SVC or SPP,
If there were seeking weapons that could only target non-moving targets (i.e. speed zero, asteroids, planets, units with positional stabilizers), would a unit with stabilizers that was orbiting around a planet be considered moving or not moving?

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Saturday, February 20, 2021 - 03:04 pm: Edit

One thing I haven't heard mentioned yet...

There is a reason the Gorns developed the Anchor...
Used to prevent exactly what is being discussed....

By Glenn Hoepfner (Ikabar) on Saturday, February 20, 2021 - 05:00 pm: Edit

Mark,
I think that is entirely because the tractor is being used in an offensive manner, meant to prevent movement.
Their argument (I'm using "their" because I don't share their concerns) is that using tractors defensively* is allowing units to travel faster than the ships normally could by manipulating the movement chart in a manner that is inconsistent with the intent of the rules.
They (them, the "their" I spoke of above), will shoot down the Gorn Anchor as being irrelevant as they did my rebuttals. That is their prerogative and I support that.
I fear that eventually, we'll all have to agree to disagree.
I fear if any changes are made to correct this concern, it'll cascade into what could result in the "Errata from hell".

*this word is subjective and I'm not keen on using it.

By Jim Davies (Mudfoot) on Saturday, February 20, 2021 - 05:35 pm: Edit

Glenn: the Prospecting Charge's hit rate depends on the target's speed, so I imagine the same might apply to your seeker. But E19 says nothing about orbits. I'll ask in Rules Questions.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, February 20, 2021 - 05:44 pm: Edit

Glenn Hoepfner:

Well, you might consider real world bottom mines. In effect, From (M2.414) "but a base in orbit (P8.2) could "move" into a mine’s detection zone and possibly trigger it (it is moving at a speed of one)." And certainly wild boar drones (FD5.255) targeting.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Saturday, February 20, 2021 - 05:56 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

I think that is entirely because the tractor is being used in an offensive manner, meant to prevent movement.

---

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Saturday, February 20, 2021 - 08:11 pm: Edit

OK, I've opened a bottle of "wine".
Uh there are no Tholians to ally with...

Am I dreaming? I see two plasmas appear out of thin air - Nah, that Andromedan couldn't have done it.

Wait, wait, there are two more 2 more plasmas appearing out of thin air. And a second Andromedan nearby. Nah, I must be dreaming.

They are driving my prey toward me! Plasmas away!! Ooh what a beautiful dream. They couldn't avoid that second batch of plasmas. And now my plasmas will hit. Ready tractor beams. My prey has run out of tractor tricks!! Got em both. The first plasmas, though weakened, will also hit. Launch our plasma F's before those TR beams finish them off.

My My, I sure enjoyed this wine from the "Floating Map Vinyard". I think I'll have another glass....

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, February 21, 2021 - 08:26 am: Edit

If there were seeking weapons that could only target non-moving targets (i.e. speed zero, asteroids, planets, units with positional stabilizers), would a unit with stabilizers that was orbiting around a planet be considered moving or not moving?

There are no such weapons. If there were, the definition of the weapon would answer the question.

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Sunday, February 21, 2021 - 09:36 am: Edit

Thanks SVC. Glenn and I are working on a Weapon that does just That. It is actually a Very Old idea that Glenn had which is Extremely Creative. In my opinion, it belongs in the Alpha Sector, but will instead find a Home somewhere in the Regenesis Galaxies. We'll make sure the Definition of the Weapon clearly designates Acceptable Targets.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Sunday, February 21, 2021 - 10:52 am: Edit

Personal opinion obviously:

A base in orbit is presumably on a predictable ballistic course even at a sub-hex scale. I'd allow a weapon that can only hit speed zero to target it, as you could "realistically" simply target the point in space it will be in when the base and weapon intersect and fire the weapon on a ballistic trajectory.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Sunday, February 21, 2021 - 11:38 am: Edit

In case anyone wonders...

Mr. Google says:

0.01286%
The odds of getting six of the same number with six dice is 6*(1/6)6=1/7776 =~ 0.01286%.

Jack math says that is 1 in about 7,776. I read the odds of rolling six 6's on six dice are 1 in 45,656.

Don't ask why I looked it up.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Sunday, February 21, 2021 - 12:17 pm: Edit

Don't ask why I looked it up.

I can imagine you get the same results some of my player friends wind up when playing Feds....
Over the course of playing end up missing 8 of 10 OL Photons at 2 or 3 hexes....
They seem to get stuck on 6's when they need 1s and 2s....