"Knowing" a rule is very different from giving the actual cased citation of the rule so everyone can look at it and the exact wording. SFB is built on very technical language that can often be conceived of and conveyed in colloquial terms that are good enough like 90% of the time, but the 10% when the technical wording matters it can really matter. Many errors made during play aren't because a rule was forgotten, but because the players involved didn't realize their colloquial understanding of a rule was imperfect.

I've only been playing for a relatively short twenty some years, but between watching discussions here, participating, reading lots of what SVC and SPP have had to say about the game, and having done active playtesting - you don't get changes made just by asserting something is *wrong* and vaguely waving at the 500 page rulebook. You list out, by full case reference, the relevant rules and point out exactly where you think they aren't working. Especially when you are trying to argue Rules As Intended with the designer and/or developer of the game.

Why do you think it should be any different here?

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Actually, in the plain rules, tractors can move ships without using warp or impulse power. Tractor rotation can happen at the start of a turn and it moves ships a hex.

So now that we have agreed that tractors can move ships through space with APR, battery, etc and doing so is not a violation of the intent of the rules. This is just a way of getting the same affect a couple more times. Mini tractor rotations throughout the turn that come with costs and benefits.

I'm in agreement with Peter's longer comment above. If you are doing this frequently with lots of little ships you are probably spending more energy and living with more restrictions than just plotting more movement to go a couple of hexes faster. But there are likely corner cases where smart application can give you an advantage.

By Dennis Surdu (Aegis) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Honestly, I do not think most folks see the stated "illegitimate" use of the tractor rules as anything more than creative thinking in a game not based in Newtonian physics. Just pretend this trick is due to a bizarre interaction of physics in the SFU and move on enjoying the game. As long as all players can use the various tricks equally, how can it be considered to need fixing? I really do not see how one or two races in particular can be hurt more by said use of the tractor rules.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 05:39 pm: Edit

Alex the following list which in no way incorperates every way the tractor rules violate all the movement rules. But it certainly points out a lot of the issues.

(C12.311) In no case may a ship change speed more than four times
during a given turn.
(C12.312) No mid-turn change in speed may be made within 1/4 turn
(eight impulses) of another mid-turn change in speed. Exception:
nimble ships (C11.28).
(C12.313) No mid-turn speed change may be made before Impulse
#4 (1/8 turn) or after Impulse #28 (7/8 turn) of a given turn. (Because
changes are announced on the previous impulse, the earliest
announcement would be on Impulse #3 and the latest on Impulse
#27.)
(C12.314) Only mid-turn speed changes which change (or will
change) the ship’s actual speed count against these limits.

Yet Tractors change the speed up and down. But we ignore this because it is pseudo speed and yet we do not actually even show the pseudo speed created by tractor tricks which greatly increase a ships speed fo a number of hexes. The issue really is that while pseudo speed when you slow down is normal and makes sense. Speeding up by slowing down makes no sense.

(C12.251) Reserve impulse power can only increase the ship’s speed
by one, regardless of the point in the turn at which it is applied.
EXAMPLE: A ship (move cost = 1) moving at Speed 9 could, on
Impulse #27, announce a speed change to Speed 12 (providing no
extra movement but gaining advantages). This would require
(C12.24) a minimum of one hex of movement energy, but since the
ship is gaining three points of speed, it cannot use reserve impulse
for this purpose; reserve warp power would be required. Reserve
impulse power could only accelerate the ship to Speed 10 in this
case.


In the above case...you need movement power. Not only that but because of the actual speed change you need specific movement power. With a tractor you gain the hexes of movement which means it is not psuedo movement at all but is an actual speed change but we ignore that as if it was just pseudo because it does not change the ships speed higher but instead claims it reduced speed.

The above rule though clearly shows that since you gained a hex of movement. It should be at the least, Impulse or warp. Not plain battery or APR or even AWR.

(C12.24) NON-PLOTTED ACCELERATION: In the case of nonplotted
acceleration paid for by reserve warp power under plotting
level A (C1.33), the power allocated must generate a number of
movement points equal to double the number of hexes of movement
gained, but not more than if the new higher speed was continued for
the entire remainder of the turn from the point of the change,
accounting for the difference between that new higher speed and the
original speed plot, and not less than one hex of movement energy.

Again...this is non plotted acceleration. The problem is not that this does not happen. The problem is because of the wording of the tractor rules, it is ignored and not treated as the actual acceleration it is because without any possible argument. You actually gained a hex of movement and will not lose it without some force acting on you ship that has nothing to do with you planned and paid for speed and hexes to be moved.

(C12.21) TOTAL COST: The energy cost of moving for that turn is
equal to the total number of hexes moved (as adjusted by the
movement cost of the unit). For example, a ship moving at Speed 28
could decelerate to Speed 27 on Impulse #9, then accelerate back to
28 on Impulse #18, resulting in total movement of 29 hexes (and all
29 must be paid for within the requirements of the rules).
A ship cannot achieve Speed 31 through mid-turn speed
changes (i.e., move 31 hexes by a combination of movement at
Speeds 30 and 29) unless one point of movement, either allocated or
from reserve (C12.25), is from impulse engines; see (C2.112).
A ship cannot exceed its acceleration limits (C2.21) by speed
changes including unplotted changes with reserve power.

So a ship Cannot...cannot...exceed its acceleration limits including unplotted speed changes even by paying for it with movement power.

But a tractor, which requires no movement power can bypass this and cause a ship that is limited to exceed its top maximum speed by 4. Actual speed measured by how many hexes of movement you actually moved.

(C2.412) EFFECTIVE SPEED is the actual number of hexes that the
unit moves during the turn (or the rate, in terms of hexes per turn, at
which it is currently moving) plus the cost of Erratic Maneuvers. This
is used for purposes of mines, asteroids, dust, recovering fighters,
destroying objects (e.g., shuttles) by towing them at high speed,
collisions with small moons, docking, and web damage.

Getting back to Steve Petricks rule question. Using tractor tricks would indeed cause a ship to be considered moving faster than it says it is. For a number of things.

(C2.413) PSEUDO SPEED is used when moving while linked to
another unit which is using its engines for movement (G7.36). In
effect, both units are towing each other at the same time (and
probably in different directions). Pseudo-speed is used for purposes
of (G7.36) and Turn Modes. See (C2.46).


This rule however since the tractor rule ignores this entirely when it acually increases the ships speed...is a strong indicator that no one when this rule was written expect ships to race across the map at higher speeds than possible because they slowed down.

(C2.1) GENERAL RULES
Movement is expressed in movement points (also known as
“movement factors” or “hexes of movement”). Movement points are
purchased by expending energy. Each ship buys movement points at
a specified rate based on its size and efficiency.
During the Energy Allocation Phase of each turn, each player
records on the Energy Allocation Form(s) a number of energy points
for movement for each of his ships. This is the amount of energy
allocated to movement.
(C2.11) LIMITS ON POWER USED: Energy allocated to movement
can only come from warp engines or impulse engines.

Energy for movement can only come from movement energy. Hmmmm... the tractor rules speciafically say nothing at all here. No where in them does it say tractor energy ignores all actual movement requirements of where the power comes from.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 05:43 pm: Edit

As for tractor rotations. That is a specific rules that specifically states it is in no way movement at all. Therefore is excluded from this discussion because it does not involve movement.

As for the second opinion stating that most do not see this the way I am presenting it. Well that is obvious. If everyone agreed I would not need to be presenting this lol.

But...I am seeing it change the game and in a way that hurts torp users.

I also see a number of ways anyone can gain from it. But the number of rules it seems to violate in my opinion is an issue. I love some of things I can do with this. Now that I have had it used against me. But again. According to the main rules? Should I be able to. The answer is no.

This as always is just my opinion.

By Dana Madsen (Madman) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 06:48 pm: Edit

I'm going to be pedantic here and say that in my opinion tractor rotation is a great analogy for this situation.

Assume you have a DD and an FF with an S torp chasing. You know through observation of the torps launch arc, movement and facing choices that the only target is the FF. The torp is going to strike the FF on imp 1 for 30 points of damage. The DD moves close to the FF at end of turn and uses APR power "to move" the FF to a different hex during rotation and now the torp does not impact on impulse 1. The FF plots speed 31 for the start of the turn and scoots away for no damage.

How is that not similar to what you are describing as occurring during the turn with tractor games. Tractors using non warp, non impulse power are causing ships to get to hexes they otherwise couldn't with regular movement rules. Sure, don't call it movement if that offends you. The fact is that with the application of power and accepting limitations on targeting, not using tractors to tractor drones, possibly spending more energy to make it work than just paying for more movement, etc your ship "moves" differently.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 06:55 pm: Edit

Ship cloaks. Enemy hits it with a "carronade." Does the carronade ALSO work to "flashcube" the ship? Becau8se if so cloaking is suicide vs ships with carronades...

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 07:02 pm: Edit

The key here is that such tractor tricks don't violate these rules because there is one key pair of rules you have overlooked: (C1.341) and (C12.12) which define legal speed plots. (C12.12) specifically says that towing by tractor beam (G7.32) or (G7.36) is beyond what a player can legally anticipate or plot for - so the plot has to be legal as if no tractoring were to occur, no matter player intent. (C12.132) further enumerates towing by tractor as not affected or limited by (C12.0).

This means that tractors do not change a ship's legal speed plot i.e. no acceleration is occurring as the ship's speed plot never actually changes.

(C2.1) defines the purchase of movement points, with "hexes of movement" given parenthetically as an "also known as", meaning movement points are a key term to watch for as we continue through. It also notes that said energy is expended during Energy Allocation to purchase these. It's sub-rules have the limit of 1 point purchased via impulse and 30 movement points purchased via warp and defines this restriction on the the ship's practical speed (C2.411).

The practical speed is what establishes a ship's legal speed plot for (C1.341) - that rule doesn't directly reference anything in (C2.4) but does say that barring (C12.12) mid-turn speed changes it will be a single, constant speed and the practical speed is the only one that can and must constant for the turn outside of (C12.0), it is the only possible speed that could be used here.

(C1.44) establishes that units move when they are called to by the Impulse Chart. This will be at their practical speed (as per their legal speed plot) unless under tractor, then it will be by their psuedo speed (C2.46) subject to the procedures of (G7.36).

In short, if not using speed changes, then using tractor tricks to change to a pseudo speed that moves on an impulse when a ship's practical speed does not is not a violation of (C2.1) as the ship has already purchased a legal speed plot and is simply following it when called to. If using mid-turn speed changes, (C12.132) establishes that the effects of towing via tractor are sperate from and not affected or limited by that section, i.e. they are neither accelerations or decelerations as there is no change to the ship's actual speed plot.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 07:10 pm: Edit

No issues lol...and I understand your thought.

But here is the difference. Tractor rotation because of the standard tractor rules, does not ever involve actual movement. While yes, a Hex can be changed. The rule is very specific that movement as in using powered movement to cause a ship to move was never involved. Not only that. But, it happens pre anything in the turn. Before anything at all can happen. You shift the ship or unit one hex in some direction that you wish it to go. It did not take place in movement.

Now...if you want to address this as you should have to pay movement power to do this? That gets into a different area of conversation. Then we also end up looking at landing shuttles by tractor. And all the rules there.

Which again, are not considered movement in and of themselves. Instead your movement speed is based on the speed of the ship that has you in tractor.

The issue my point addresses is purely two ships one of which has tractored the other and is using movement power to move. The tractor rules make even this pretty clear when they address the pseudo speed generated. There it talks about how you have a combined movement cost. Which changes the speed at which you can move and so reduces your speed accordingly. It never even considered using something that obviously slows down your speed to increase your speed. Which this does. Not by actually creating any movement. But by manipulating the facade we use called an impulse chart.

The impulse chart is not about movement. It is about breaking movement down into individual rounded amounts of distance traveled to give a set point in space where you can act as if you were constantly moving but where it appears using the chart. You leap forward 10000 KM. Then stop for several seconds...then leap then stop then leap...then stop....so forth so on.

The truth is you are steadily and always moving.

So by manipulating this faked way of travel. We fail to pay the cost required when we hook two ships together. Which would actually slow them down. By allowing the fake movement charts impulses to make us actually gain movement through simple manipulation of a convenience.

Anyway, While I understand your statement about the rotation. Since that is very specifically addressed and included in the tractor rules and stands outside all movement related rules, It is not actually part of this discussion in my opinion.

And if the tractor rules addressed the speed changes to a faster speed. And/or addressed the power that was not being paid to do this, then again, we would not be having this conversation.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 07:18 pm: Edit

Mike, are you referring to the (G13.552) effect of a mine explosion automatically allowing lock-ons for one impulse? (G13.554) says cloaked ships aren't exposed by damage from weapons and there's nothing I'm seeing in (FP14.0) that is an exception to that.

The advantage of the carronade versus cloaks is in (FP14.34) in that it always uses the true range, not effective, largely mitigating the benefits of the cloak and allowing the enemy ships to harass the cloaked ship with some damage potential every turn for relatively little energy.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 07:21 pm: Edit

All good points Alex. However, the references are based on the idea that the ship slows down. And that you are paying for the differences between the two ships speeds because the tractor slowed you down.

The unanticipated issue caused by the timing effect is creating situations never addressed.

Now I am sure you will say prove it. Or something to that effect. I cannot. Other than at no time was this type situation anticipated or addressed because there is no mention or example of such given.

It naturally exempts tractors because they slow you down in unplanned for ways because the ships that grab you or you grab could be any movement cost ships. And could be affected in multiple ways. But in all related examples it really comes down to it slowed you down but one of the two ships pays the cost. Because the movement becomes based on the movement cost of both ships being paid each time a movement occurs.

The way it is being done bypasses that and makes the cost only equal to one ships movement because the rest of the cost being paid is thrown away by the release of the tractor.

This happening once...while a slight violation...is understandable. Repeating it intentionally is taking advantage of a rule that did not mean this to occur.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 07:27 pm: Edit

"Which changes the speed at which you can move and so reduces your speed accordingly."

Which speeds get changed or reduced?

"The impulse chart is not about movement. It is about breaking movement down into individual rounded amounts of distance traveled to give a set point in space where you can act as if you were constantly moving but where it appears using the chart."

I previously addressed this in great detail. The Impulse Chart is about movement because that is how the game regulates movement. It as an abstraction, and as such, there are numerous artifacts possible as a result. To date, these have been artifacts the designers are well aware of and have accepted as a reasonable trade off over more unwieldy approaches.

Consider the reverse of your pet case: two CA's moving speed 30 in parallel. One tractors the other for an impulse then releases after the movement segment of the following - while if they had just been tractored the whole time, moving together in a straight line they would move 30 hexes, but it's about a 50/50 chance that they will "lose" a hex of movement if done on a random impulse - the tractor in that circumstance isn't slowing them down in "realism" terms, but it all depends on what the Impulse Chart says for speed 15 for game play.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 07:34 pm: Edit

"All good points Alex. However, the references are based on the idea that the ship slows down. And that you are paying for the differences between the two ships speeds because the tractor slowed you down."

So you agree this is legal then, and not violating many rules as you have claimed?

"The unanticipated issue caused by the timing effect is creating situations never addressed."

It has been addressed: the designers have said this is legal and part of the game - apparently so many times they, according to you when you brought his up on Feb 10, have told you to "shut up and deal with it" at least once already.

ETA: It should also be noted this is the exact same thing that allows mid-turn speed changes to be used to avoid acceleration limits for ships and hard speed caps for shuttlecraft, and those are also known and accepted as usable quirks of the Impulse Chart.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 07:38 pm: Edit

Alex lol...I agree.

But when you use the artificial abstraction to plan out a way to bypass the obvious intent of the rules.

Make it where having to pay for movement is not a factor.

And change the balance of the game.

I see that as a problem.

But as I have said. I also am perfectly happy letting it remain in place now that I have made my points.

Why? Because unlike some who keep telling me the issues it causes and the limits that creates makes using it not worthwhile except in such rare ways as to be worth almost nothing. I see it as creating an immense arsenal that most players will only recognize after it has caused them to lose games.

I have learned. But I feel it is against the intent of the rules if not specifically against the rules and we should simply remove it to stay within the intent. If not, as I have stated. Cool. I have already adjusted and improved on the tactics used against me. I can do this either way.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 07:46 pm: Edit

If your grasp on the rules is such you adamntly claim that it "violates many rules" but when, after two weeks, you finally lay those rules out and it takes all of one post addressing that to point out where you are wrong so clearly that you see it as well...I'll have just as much confidence in your ability to predict the future evolution of tactics for the game.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 08:31 pm: Edit

My interpretation stands lol.

Why because of all the rules I mentioned. While some parts you believe were addressed by the exceptions. Even they do not address the parts discussed since that is not how the tractor rules actually sees them. As in your speed increases. Tractor rule...so since your speed decreased...you can now turn faster.

Point being the exceptions exist. But aimed at what? They ignore the reality of what is happening because it was not addressed when they were created.

Anyway. Your opinion is also noted. But not accepted as valid.

But then that is just my opinion.

Anyway...this has been an very interesting discussion. Did we solve the issue? Sure...we decided that nothing is going to change. Or so it seems. As stated. I am totally good with that. Maybe my talk will get people to start playing different. Maybe they will ignore it. Does not matter. The discussion was still fun.

The reality still is, you can manipulate the rules and abstract movement chart to create things most people do not see as possible at times that will alter the game mechanics to favor one player over another at a critical time in the game.

It is just tactics. Or it is a rule violation or at least an exploit or cheat.

But since you see nothing wrong here Alex. That is fine.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Tuesday, February 23, 2021 - 08:46 pm: Edit

---

Quote:

Tractor rule...so since your speed decreased...you can now turn faster.

---

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 - 08:13 am: Edit

Charles wrote:
>>The reality still is, you can manipulate the rules and abstract movement chart to create things most people do not see as possible at times that will alter the game mechanics to favor one player over another at a critical time in the game. >>

But again, this is something that both players can do equally [*], with the same effect. And isn't anything anyone should be surprised by. Ever.

Yes. If I launch a flurry of plasmas an an opponent who can run away at moderately high speed, which can be increased by judicious, complicated tractor beam use, those plasmas aren't likely to do much. But then, if I launch a flurry of plasmas at an opponent who can just run away at high speed, same thing is gonna happen, *without* the complicated tractor shenanigans.

Anything that results in players moving fast in a situation where they can just run away with no penalties (i.e. unlimited or large map, no scenario rules resulting in a time limit or a fixed map goal), either at high speed, or moderate speeds with tractor shenanigans, is gonna make plasma not work.

Against other technologies, what is all the tractor shenanigans really doing? Plotting speed 20 and moving 26 hexes for the turn (which, to be real, is highly pushing it and unlikely at best) is going to have zero effect against hellbores or photons or disruptors. The drones are still going to be on the map for three turns, and again, much like plasma, if you can run forever, sure, this is a problem; if you can't, you'll still have to deal with the drones eventually.

This is a problem against plasma users. Yes. Agreed. But then, it is also probably way more the scenario set up (open or large map, no fixed point to battle over, rando "fight until someone disengages and score points" patrol battle type situations) than the movement issues, as plasma *always* has trouble in any situation where their opponent can just run away at high speed until the plasma is gone.

So other than in one, already disadvantageous situation, how are the tractor shenanigans actually breaking the game, other than in an aesthetic sense (i.e. "it just doesn't seem right that ships can do that")?

[*] As noted, Andros are at a disadvantage in this arena, but they are also always moving speed 31 anyway. And the Bolosco are probably better at it, but has anyone ever even *played* the Bolosco?

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 - 10:35 am: Edit

"Assume you have a DD and an FF with an S torp chasing. You know through observation of the torps launch arc, movement and facing choices that the only target is the FF. The torp is going to strike the FF on imp 1 for 30 points of damage. The DD moves close to the FF at end of turn and uses APR power "to move" the FF to a different hex during rotation and now the torp does not impact on impulse 1. The FF plots speed 31 for the start of the turn and scoots away for no damage."

Sabots are the answer.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 - 11:40 am: Edit

>>Sabots are the answer.>>

Sabot plasma certainly helps. But really, what helps plasma more than anything is either a closed map (walls, or "you disengage if you go off the edge"), or fighting around a fixed point that is important to the scenario (base, planet, convoy).

Plasma has *always* been disadvantaged in scenarios that use an open map (or a really big map that is essentially open), and/or have no specific objective other than "hurt the opponent", and/or no fixed point to fight around or over.

Games that are "my fleet and your fleet meet and fight on this open map" have disadvantaged plasma since the game was invented. Fancy tractor tricks haven't made this any worse. Bolting and Sabot plasma (and ECM plasma) have all helped a little here and there. But the truth is, and always has been, that in situations where nothing is preventing your opponent from just running away at speed 31 till the plasma evaporates whenever you launch any, plasma is disadvantaged. Complicated tractor shenanigans certainly make this a little worse, but only in situations where your opponent couldn't just move speed 31 anyway for whatever reason.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 - 12:46 pm: Edit

Peter whenever someone comes in with a high speed escape plotted, positions himself for the turn and has everything preset and figured to outrun plasma then yep...all your points are good.

And in those cases I have no issue. Good tactics, good plan...usually works.

The thing you just cannot see is when that is not the plan. When you screwed up. When the ship cannot by the use of anything possible under normal rules escape. But because of the misuse of tractors. Now they can and do. Without any need to pay for that high speed escape. Instead just a couple of points of power and two tractors and away they go.

And it is only able to be used by both players if they each have two ships. Anyway, as you and everyone says. It is hard to get torps to hit. Making it even harder for torp races does what? Degrades their abilities even further. So...that pretty much makes what I said a certainty.

They already had issue, not even including the open map issue. Now they have an added number of issues. You are also not seeing the combination effect. Where a direct fire does all the normal planning. And closes very quickly to range for overloads using offensive tractor tricks to move at speed 30 coming in and move in impulses he cannot move in at the speed he is going. Not once but twice. To suddenly appear at range 8...already set up to run away.

My point is simple it changes the dynamics and gives added issues to plasma races which already are disadvantaged.

I know you do not see it or just think with brilliant planning it is not needed. But needed or not. It sure is helpful to be able to use these things and sure is hurtful to plasmas when someone does.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 - 12:53 pm: Edit

Mark lol that was sort of the point lol. But it also states why people are not seeing the broken nature of the tractor rule.

You read the rule and understand. I tractor I slow down.

The people I play with now see...I tractor and keep tractor up. I slow down. I tractor and drop....I race across the board faster than I legally can. Without increasing movement speed on the Impulse Chart. Without having my mid turn speed changes coming up effected. Without it costing me any or my warp power. And I still get the turn mode bonus. And can do all the standard tractor tricks.

But the tractor rules only recognize...slow down and can turn quicker as to how they do speed changes.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 - 01:38 pm: Edit

I'm one of the players Chuck is talking about.

Tractor Tricks (TM) is just part of SFB - has been for decades.

I don't buy the argument that plasma is disadvantaged in a game of Tractor Tricks (TM). You just have to use different tactics than you THOUGHT you had to use.

Marcel Trahan took Peladine against my Fed on a 60x60 map and absolutely destroyed me using his own tractor tricks.

Cam you launch plasma, turn off, and expect to win fleet and squadron battles in a world of Tractor Tricks? No. But you CAN win and you don't have to be lucky all the time.

In my opinion, this is a non-issue. Adapt and overcome.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Wayne Douglas Power:

In regard ECM causing a friendly tractor attempt to fail. See (D6.3146) which says

"FRIENDLY UNITS ignore (D6.3141), (D6.3142), and (D6.3144), but not (D6.3143) or (D6.3145)."

Which pretty much means that if you are attempting to beam onto (or attach a tractor beam to in this context) a friendly unit you ignore the friendly unit's ECM. And before you begin contemplating tractoring that friendly unit that is using erratic maneuvers, the ECM from erratic maneuvers is in force for both friendly and hostile attempts

(D6.3143) NATURAL SOURCES: Points received from natural causes, such as asteroids (P3.0), Erratic Maneuvering (C10.0), atmospheres (P2.54), small target modifiers (E1.7), and certain terrain types (P0.0).

Of course, you might have your scout lend O-EW to the ship attempting the tractor link, and that would be something that might block the attempt, or at least force him to spend power for ECCM, since if he does not make the tractor link he will need another tractor to try again, see (D6.37).

(D6.3145) RECEIVED FROM OFFENSIVE ECM: Under rule (G24.219), a unit can receive (unwelcome and unwanted) "negative ECM" from one enemy scout. This is limited to six ECM points. This ECM is factored into the general EW equation between firing and target units.

and

Under (D6.372) If an unsuccessful attempt is made, another attempt with that same specific system box cannot be made on the same turn or within eight impulses (i.e., the standard rate of operations rule for most systems). Thus, you could make as many transporter attempts as you have transporters, assuming all were powered, but each could only make one attempt. Any energy allocated to a failed attempt is lost, and that item cannot be operated again on that turn (as per rules).

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, February 24, 2021 - 02:41 pm: Edit

"Mark lol that was sort of the point lol. But it also states why people are not seeing the broken nature of the tractor rule."

No. The reason people aren't seeing the broken nature of the tractor rules is because the tractor rules are not broken.