Not sure if this is the right spot, but what the heck.

Military Times channel on you tube has a piece on the A-10 Thunderbolt II. (Affectionately called the Warthog.)

Key points were that there are currently 281 A-10s active service in the AF, Air National Guard and Reserves.

Talked about how the Air Force has been trying to kill the A-10 program and retire all of the A-10s for years.

But supporters in the U.S. Congress and Senate still support it.

The last half of the clip talked about upgrades to the A-10 to keep it survivable in battle.

1. Improve communications, sensors.
2. Expand “stand off” capabilities (basically longer effective ranges on air to ground missiles, and the 30mm Gatling.
3. Give the aircraft a longer range air to air ability to engage missiles or aircraft.

In plain English, they want to improve the cockpit up to F-35 standard for situation awareness.

Also, expand the effective range of its main weapons.
Last, to give the aircraft a “air superiority capacity”.

Just to make this relevant for SFB discussions, imagine giving the SFB A-10 expanded ranger for its phaser Gatling? How about some more special rails for an improved type III MW drones?

Oh well. It’s late but I can dream about the mighty Federation A-10s fighting Andromedans, ISC and what ever else SVC has cooked up for the future in the SFB universe!

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, March 15, 2021 - 02:01 am: Edit

You cannot change the range of the weapons and the A10 hasn't had the Gatling module in decades.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, March 15, 2021 - 06:28 am: Edit

I said it was a dream, didn’t I?

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Monday, March 15, 2021 - 11:12 am: Edit

The A-10...

Serves solely on Federation CVA class ships (to the best of my knowledge)...

Serves aboard Federation CVAs along side F-14s...

F-14s...

With Gatling phasers and a drone suite that matches or exceeds the top-of-the-line superiority fighters used by anyone else, the dozen aboard the Federation CVA are an easy match, if not downright OVERmatch, for the dozen-and-a-half superiority fighters used by the Federation CVAs top rival, the C8V.

That leaves comparing the full squadron of A-10s to the half squadron of Z-D fighters.

Same speed. Legendary A-10 toughness (nearly twice as tough). Type-I drones (as opposed to Type-VI).

For these reasons, IMO, the A-10 is a wonderful attack shuttle. Should I ever wish more (), there's always the Mega-pack...

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, March 15, 2021 - 12:18 pm: Edit

The Klingon Z-DC replaces the two type-VI drone rails with two type-I rails.

So does the Z-PC.

The A-10 has always had two type-I drone rails.. A Mega-pack (A-10M) gains no drones (neither does a Z-DM or Z-PM) but does gain a second photon torpedo (the Z-DM gains two extra disruptor charges and the Z-PM gains an extra phaser-3-FA).

An SCS has 800 spaces of drones (plus the drone racks and any drones bought with Commander's options).

To fully arm the A-10 squadron takes 22 drone spaces.
To fully arm the F18CM squadron takes 44 drone spaces.
To fully arm the F-14DM squadron takes 111 drone spaces.
That is 177 drone spaces.

Assuming no losses, that would allow four fully loaded strikes. Add in the ready racks and reload storage and (R2.R5) storage on the escorts I think the SCS group could easily generate Six fully loaded strikes, and possibly seven (again you could use the drones from the drone racks of the escorts and any extra drones purchased as commander's options).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, March 15, 2021 - 01:19 pm: Edit

Just to consider a possible upgrade of the A-10 for service during and after the Andromedan War period, we could start by looking at the 2 standard Drone type 1 rails.

My suggestion would be to add 2 more drone rails.

Now, should they be 2 type VI half space drones?

What about 2 more type I drone rails?

Or could the A-10 update have a path towards mounting a pair of special drone rails, and the ability to launch a pair of Type IV 2 space drones?

There are rumors of new antagonist enemies in the future of Star Fleet battles... will there be a need for still more anti fighter and anti drone capability? If the special rails mentioned above could mount type III MW drones like the F-14s carry, the Federation CVA would have an astounding Space superiority capacity.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, March 15, 2021 - 03:02 pm: Edit

A10 was going away and being replaced by the A20F.

Just saying...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, March 15, 2021 - 03:51 pm: Edit

Mike, we have been over this and over this time and again.

Under some circumstances, the A-10 is superior to half as many A-20 fighters.

Sure, the A-20F has glamor and an edge in speed.

It also puts a larger amount of BPVs in fewer number of targets.

To get the same percentage of BPVs killed, the enemy has to target and inflict sufficient damage points into two separate targets (the A-10s) instead of each individual A-20F.

Depending on what weapons are being used, it can be difficult to make two successful attacks on two different A-10s. Particularly, if they are in different hexes.

Plus, 2 A10s can be in two different locations at the same time one A-20F is in one hex being such a lovely target.

Sure, there are times the A-20 might be preferable... but the “too many eggs in one basket” adage still applies.

Plus, given the limit on how many deck crews can reload a given fighter, means reloading 2 drones on each A-10 can fill the existing drone rails in a single turn.

Not bad for a 1+ space fighter shuttle.

Of course, that might change if a refit/upgrade to the A-10 increases the number and or types of drone rails... but that has not been approved yet.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, March 15, 2021 - 04:22 pm: Edit

Jeff Wile:

A-10, two deck crews can work on it at the same time, so in one turn they can load its two drone rails with type-I drones.

A-20F, four (FOUR) deck crews can work on it at the same time, so in one turn they can load four drone rails with type-I, or type-IV drones (taking two rail spaces each).

The only advantage (if you can call it that) the A-10 has over the A-20 is that the A-10 does not have an ADD to reload.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, March 15, 2021 - 06:01 pm: Edit

A squadron of A-10s can launch 11 drones in one turn, 22 drones in two turns (22 drones in one turn if 11 of them are type-VI), and fire 11 photon torpedoes in one turn.

A squadron of A-20s can launch six type-IV drones a turn for two turns, or six type-I drones a turn for four turns, or launch six type-IV and six-type-VI drones on one turn and six type-VI on the second turn, or launch six type-I drones and six type-VI drones on each of two consecutive turns, or launch 24 type-III drones in one turn (depending on drone loadout, plus fire 12 photon torpedoes in one turn.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, March 15, 2021 - 07:40 pm: Edit

SPP,

Per J10.4, can't a squadron of A-20s launch 12 type-I or type-IV in a turn (doing so twice for type-Is, only once for type-IVs)?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, March 15, 2021 - 08:08 pm: Edit

Ah, yes. I did not check heavy fighters.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, March 16, 2021 - 06:23 pm: Edit

Which is nice to have clarified, but...

What I was hoping to discuss what, (if any...) improvements can be added to the venerable A-10 that would make it a viable option for players to want to use it in a Star Fleet Battles Scenario after the Andromedan War call it post year 195-198 .

In most cases, this would involve a CVA (assumes one is in service and not upgraded to SCS with A-20s.)

Yeah, some players (mike Grafton perhaps!?!) might prefer the A-20F. But there are some old folks were, (me for one) that appreciate the A-10.

Just because something or some one ages is not a justification for junking it (or them.) (if there were, SVC might have traded SPP in on a younger model decades ago (blond? About 25 years old? Former member of the Swedish beach volley ball team? Super model? With a near encyclopedic knowledge of StarFleet Battles?)

Well, I say it was a dream.

Grin.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, March 16, 2021 - 07:22 pm: Edit

I think SVC ruled long ago that the A10 will NEVER get any faster...

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, March 16, 2021 - 10:18 pm: Edit

From a meta-game perspective, the A-10 is a mistake. It is "too good" for what it should be, most of that being in its ability to take a ridiculous amount of damage. Because it is already too good, it is not going to see any improvements. Or deployed on any more ships than it already is.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, March 16, 2021 - 10:56 pm: Edit

Mike, I can buy into that rational for the General War period. (Year 168 through year 184ish).

But... by year 200 at least there are new ships and threats. PF’s are clearly superior to most fighters, and by that time the amount of damage to kill a PF (assuming no dash pods /warp packs) is closer to the damage sink a A-10 represents.

Plus, as S.P.P. Pointed out, the A-10 does not have a ADD launcher.

No Gatling does hurt a bit, but generally the A-10 is not a terrible choice.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, March 17, 2021 - 05:03 pm: Edit

Who exactly is going to be carrying those A10? 2/3rd of the CVAs are known to be gone by then.

IIRC SVC never ruled out building MORE Fed CVAs, but I don't remember a class history of the Fed Heavy Carriers either.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Wednesday, March 17, 2021 - 07:52 pm: Edit

No, I am saying that the A-10 is too good for what it should be. It has the damage taking capability of a two-space fighter in a single-space fighter. That is bad for the game. In its present incarnation, it is limited by speed, which means it risks getting left behind in later environments. Which, from a meta-game aspect is good, as it means other options will be used instead.

If it is ever given improvements, then it will get used more, furthering its damage to the game mechanics. That's why the faster replacement for an A-10 is an A-20F, not the non-existent A-10F. Fundamentally, the point is to effectively "retire" the A-10, not prolong its exposure. (And I mean retire from the game, not retire within the game.)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, March 18, 2021 - 01:18 pm: Edit

Guys, I think perhaps, we are repeating things that have been said for years.

First, to address M.G. Point about the CVA. Does not matter. The CL (OCL) is very old, but even years after the Federation started mothballing CL class ships, the General war gave them a new lease on life.

Even today, ADB has not issued an edict that no CL can be used in a scenario after a given year (say year 220?).

Same with the CVA. Even if there is only one CVA in service, it can still appear in a scenario, even years after the General war. Plus there are other ships (both published and others just proposed) that use A-10 fighters, including star base deployment of A-10s.

Now, I think M.W. Is making a valid game balance observation.

It’s just that SVC painted himself into a corner with the A-10.

As I recall, the Original Flatbed CVA dates back to the pocket game edition (expansion), which was limited in comparison to today’s rule set. I’d have to check, but there may not have been 2 space shuttles back then. I am somewhat confident that there may not have been the “1+” shuttle size either title yet.

In a sense, Mike is criticizing the game design because it is “...too good for what it should be...”. The problem is, mike has 40 years of hindsight on his side, and SVC had only just started building the Star Fleet Universe. In fact, quite a bit that is in the game today, hadn’t been invented yet back in 1979.

The problem is, when SVC was designing fighter shuttles and Assault shuttles, the only real difference was the number of damage boxes. Should the A-10 have started as a 2space shuttle? May be. Should the A20 have been a 3 space shuttle?\dunno.

But the published history is not going to change, and the game has survived even with a game mechanic error cursed A-10.

Now, that said, just like in the real world military, the A-10 is still serving the Federation.

At this point, because Mike W. Is most likely correct, there is not going to be a A-10F (or ever).

So, will the Federation A-10 get some updated weapons to carry like the U.S.A.F. Got?

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Thursday, March 18, 2021 - 04:00 pm: Edit

Well it obviously needs an "anti-shield" P-G that does +1 damage over a standard P-G and -1 damage to hulls....

:D

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, March 18, 2021 - 04:29 pm: Edit

To be clear: I am not criticizing SVC or anyone else. The A-10 was indeed introduced way back before what a fighter was supposed to look like was ever defined. That's not the issue.

The issue is that *now* the A-10 doesn't fit inside the "lines" of what a single-space fighter should be and look like. Because of its place in SFB history, it can't simply be just removed. It just has to be worked around. But the one thing that does not have to be done is making the situation worse. Doing any improvements to the A-10 is just making the situation worse.

I expect that the A-10M is as good as the A-10 is going to get, with all the limitations that implies. If that isn't good enough, or you can't live with the restrictions, then you're just going to have to learn to live with A-20Fs instead.

So, to answer the actual question, no, the A-10 is not going to get any updated weapons or any other improvements. It is what it is at this point.

(Important disclaimer: I am not SVC or SPP and I do not get to make actual decisions. This is my opinion of the situation only. SVC or SPP could surprise me if they wanted to, but I really doubt they want to touch this. I am just trying to give perspective on why the A-10 will not be receiving any improvements.)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, March 18, 2021 - 05:00 pm: Edit

The A-10 is not alone. If you were to upgrade the A-10, you would have to upgrade the Gorn G-10. Note that the only direct-fire torpedo fighter that is Speed 15 and hits with the Force of the best standard loaded ship weapons is the Hydran Stinger-H, but it has only 10 damage points. The Tholians who are supposedly something special in putting together small units can hit with standard diruptors, and have 14 damage points for a size 1 fighters (only two smaller than the A-10 but two larger than most other siize 1 fighters) but only got Speed 14, for the fighter, not Speed 15. The Klingon Z-D and Kzintis DAS (which includes the WYN and the Lyrans) are 10 damage points and Speed 10. The Fed is 16 damage points and Speed 10. It is what it is. The Plasma Empires got Speed 15 and 12 damage points for their home grown torpedo fighters (Gladiator III for the Romulans and Fast Torpedo Fighter for the ISC), but plasma fighters, even plasma-F fighters, are hard to use when it comes to actually logging hits.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Thursday, March 18, 2021 - 08:59 pm: Edit

To be fair, this idea is predicated on the age of the A-10. 40 years after the A-10 YIS date of Year 171 is year 211.

Long after the end of the General War, ISC pacification, and the Andromedan War/invasion.

The single CVA still in service could still be hauling the venerable A-10Ms (or whatever) around.

I just do not see how adding a pair of dogfight drone rails (typeVI) is over the top or over powering anything

Adding another pair of Type I drone rails to the original pair of drone rails would be a net increase, but still pales in comparison to the number of drones the F-14D fighters are hauling around.

Combining the 4 standard rails into a pair of type IV drones might be too much.

Still, by year 211 the General war is long gone, most empires have long converted to using PFs.

At some point, the only empires still using carriers will be the Federation, the Kzinti Hegemony and the Hydrans.

The Feds might have combat with the Kzinti, but there is no common border with the Hydrans.

Comparisons between Fed fighters and Klingon, Lyran , Tholian, Romulan or WYN will progressively become more rare as empires adopt X ships, or continue to use PFs.

Planetary defense units may still use fighters or bombers, but even they (the wealthy planets) will have PFs as well.

If Mike G point about obsolescence has validity, then it will be a case of the CVA and it’s A-10s and F-14s going up against another SCS with PFs or a squadron with a PFT and a flotilla of PFs.

The days of CVA vs CVA duels will have passed as the Federation continues to operate the last CVA.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, March 19, 2021 - 05:32 am: Edit

---

Quote:

The Tholians who are supposedly something special in putting together small units can hit with standard diruptors, and have 14 damage points for a size 1 fighters...

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By Mike West (Mjwest) on Friday, March 19, 2021 - 11:18 am: Edit

While totally separate from the topic at hand, I have always thought the Spider-IIP should be the Tholian standard fighter. No mixing, no 50/50. Just straight up all Spider-IIPs.

On-topic, I figure that by Y200 any surviving CVA would be using A-20Fs (or, I suppose, F-101s) and A-10s would just not exist in a fleet perspective. The only place that the few remaining A-10s would be lingering are star bases.