Its got to be tremendously expensive to build a Dyson Sphere. I think the question is how could a small empire (with only one habitable planet) build such a thing?

You could construct it over a period of centuries but it's going to be a huge drag on your economy until its complete (and there will be constant political pressure to redirect resources to more immediate needs)

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, March 06, 2021 - 04:38 pm: Edit

Douglas Saldana:

Political Pressure on the Tholians is to build the thing simply to provide living room because they cannot really live on other planets. The Tholians had already established an empire when the built it, and forcing (encouraging donations) from the happy citizens (subjugated peoples) goes a long way to paying for it. Basically the history says that the Tholians, because of their lack of habitable planets, needed them, and had an empire to pay for them. And continued building them because that was what was needed for the Good of Tholiian life (and maybe they convinced themselves that their subjugated people built them willingly). Suffice to say, the Tholians had the resources of a galaxy (however small) at their disposal and built a lot of them.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, March 06, 2021 - 07:52 pm: Edit

There is an overview of Tholian physiology in the Prime Directive Tholians preview material in Away Team Log.

It's worth noting that, even in the Federation, there are a significant number of major and minor industrial worlds whose populations live in domed colonies and/or in orbital habitats, not least of which being Luna and Mars here in the Sol system. (Well, as Prime Directive Federation tells it, the terraforming of Mars is set to be completed by approximately Y250. But until then, the locals are obliged to live in domed colonies.)

The Tholians back in M81 would no doubt have wished to live in climate-controlled comfort within their various Spheres - which most of them seemingly preferred over the "wild" conditions back on Tholia Prime - they would certainly have been capable of "slumming it" in various sealed environments prior to their conquest of the M81 Galaxy.

While it's no doubt possible that the first Spheres were built prior to the consolidation of their power across M81, I wonder if they might have been relatively rare before then, if only due to the need to wage large-scale conflicts such as the Great Martial War. Or to put it another way, Spheres seem to be "luxury items", whose expense could be justified only once the galactic security situation warranted it.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Sunday, March 07, 2021 - 03:43 am: Edit

You know, apropos of nothing, the sphere probably has a lot of klingon, and Federation, and anyone else in the Alpha Quadrant not sleeping very easily.

Sure, it was damaged. Sure they were running. But as far as I know, the Tholian sphere is by far the largest artificial construct, mobile or otherwise, in the known galaxy.

What that says about the military potential for the Tholians, had they not largely met death by Seltorians, should terrify anyone as in "they could dwarf the Andro invasion."

Somewhere in the October 31st files of Star Fleet Academy's simulator programs, there's a scenario where an armed sphere shows up, under "The Unicron Contingency."

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Sunday, March 07, 2021 - 12:33 pm: Edit

Peter wrote

"If you are on a closed map, the plasma force can 100% close and score plasma hits, even if the opponent is moving speed 31. As the edge of the map makes it impossible to avoid plasmas. It takes some doing. And possibly getting shot getting the situation set up. But on a closed map? You can score plasma hits. Even with someone moving speed 31. Even if that is the result of tractor beams."

Normal maps yes. We use 60X60. Still you can over time run someone into a corner maybe.

The point was more along this line.

I am playing right now. And had this situation. Plasma launch at range 5 toward someone who was heading toward me on impulse 27. So on impulse 32 plasma would strike him. At range 2 behind him. More plasma closing. He does a HET. Still cannot move fast enough to avoid taking the plasma at range 5. Cannot change speed because that would be on impulse 28 or later. Will not move for one impulse due to his speed.

Slows down. Increases speed by one gaining a hex using the questionable tractor trick. Now moves every impulse through the end of the turn. Does the normal tractor trick which everyone knows about because it applies next turn. Not this one. And will move the first impulse of next turn so can increase speed to max during energy allocation and completely out run torps.

Now is this possible? Only if using a tractor trick that gives you more movement than you paid for at a time when you cannot legally increase your speed.

So...could I have supposedly chased him into a corner over turns of movement while he was shooting me? Maybe.

So what it boils down to is a plasma degradation where plasma becomes pretty worthless. Answer is do not bother to launch except in corners. Or bolt. Which means half damage at best.

In this case. I was doing the best I could with a slightly inferior force involving a Snipe-B against a SPC and a SKA. Snipe-B is not going to chase anyone anywhere. Just cannot run fast enough even using tractor tricks. My other ship a SPA was closing from behind. Snipe-B was under cloak. Came out and launched then went back under. Which is about all you can really do with Snipes. Use them as subs.

Now I could have bolted. But again...we are talking Snipe-Bs. Power? What is this thing called power? I have none to spare. Batteries? Yeah right. Slight EW changes possible. And against a SPC Scout? Again....yeah right.

So launching was his only chance to hit or bolt at a plus 2 hit chance? 1 to 2. Not an overwhelming chance. But even so...severe degradation to damage potential.

So again....this comes down to using torps as intended. Launching them. And watching someone gain 1 or more hexes of movement that they cannot gain if alone. Or without gaining movement without using legal mid turn speed changes. But through supposedly slowing down but increasing movement with tractor tricks. And being able to totally avoid plasma.

As Alex is so fond of saying...I think this will ruin the game. Well for plasma users who always operate on a pretty thin line. This takes it over the line a fair amount. So yes. For plasma users this degrades the game badly once people see it done and enough start doing it, then without a doubt in my mind it will make plasma races much harder to play and therefore much less effective.

As was also mentioned. Some people from the group have stopped by and said they make adjustments. No one though stopped by and disagreed with my examples. Nor with the effect it had. Just that it "could" be taken into consideration and potentially you could maybe adjust tactics to minimize the effect. Which is true to an extent. Also they are not playing a plasma race in the campaign. Ted as an example is a Fed. Who could have a Plasma ship or two. But it does not make any real difference to him. Wayne...is a battle Captain. Plays assorted games with all sorts of different fleets as a go to guy to handle overflow and NPE games and we appreciate all battle Captains a lot hehe.

But still...it comes down to what it does to an already hard to use weapon. The plasma ballet becomes the plasma watch them stroll off taking none to almost no damage.

There are a lot of other factors in campaign games involved that make things different than casual pick up games. Where some tactics just are not viable and others become required to gain what is needed. All I am saying is this absolutely degrades plasma. And that should concern anyone to see a weapon become much less useful when it is the main offensive weapon of a number of races.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Sunday, March 07, 2021 - 12:59 pm: Edit

Peter...

I know you play a lot of Tournament Games.

Let me ask you this. If you could now...using tractor tricks...apply a tractor to your own ship. And if you are to move next impulse. Will now move next impulse. And the impulse after. And cut your turn move in half. And be able to double sideslip. Would a guy using Plasma be very effective against you?

Even though he can do these things also. He is still dependent on his plasmas to be able to move and catch you. They get no benefit from tractor tricks. While his ship would get some benefit. It still comes down to if he launches. You can walk away from him far enough to reduce his plasma to no damage or at worst. Much less damage than it would have hit for.

Would you want to play a plasma race with this rule change? Because while it is not a rule a change per se in multi ship battles. It is an overlooked and rarely used usage as is obvious by no one using it regularly. Many if not most players have never even seen it used like this.

Anyway just a thought for you to consider. Does that in anyway make plasma ships less effective in tournament play? And if so...then it should be obvious as to why that is a serious issue in campaigns and multi ship play.

By Jack Taylor (Jtaylor) on Sunday, March 07, 2021 - 03:44 pm: Edit

Post removed

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Sunday, March 07, 2021 - 04:35 pm: Edit

Charles, it seems to me and several others that your difficulties with plasma tactics largely stem from the fact that you play on a 60x60 map, not on the tractor tricks of your opponent. Such a map is effectively large enough (i.e. 3600 hexes) to be a floating map when compared to the standard 30x42 map (1260 hexes), amounting to nearly triple the playing area. As has been discussed before, seeking weapons generally do not do well on floating maps. Yes, it may seem "unrealistic" that a space combat game relies on a fixed map for play balance, but that is the case with SFB.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Sunday, March 07, 2021 - 06:06 pm: Edit

As a old time Rom player.

Hitting with Plasma has always been a work of art. The best way is the Gorn anchor. In a fleet action the Romulan DSM is the best anchor around. Skyhawks and to some extent the BH. Can be used as well. Cloak close in when they do they do the tractor tricks nab one of them. Yes the anchor ship will get mauled but the target will eat plasma.

As for straight plasma hits. You launch your plasma to be were the other player wants to be. The FED wants either range 12 for Proxies are 8 or less for over loads... Oh yes I can close in to overload range fire and use tractor tricks for a quick turn and speed change mover every imp to escape. Uhmm the Romulan launched earlier well ••••. If i want range 8 Plasma will impact range 10, well fire longer range,,, oh Plasma Ships have power for ECM lots of power. (only one ship needs ECCM the one guiding the plasma and it is farther back) He runs from the plasma doing min damage ECM shift and range. Phaser 1s/ Plasma ships have a lot... why to snipe into the rear shields of ships running from plasma.

I still make mistakes and some times i screw up my plasma moves and they slip past them at high speed sigh.. Those are my fault.

And in a campaign bases do not run can not tractor trick... as ground targets either.... So pick your battles.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Wednesday, March 10, 2021 - 08:28 am: Edit

Kosta wrote:
>>Charles, it seems to me and several others that your difficulties with plasma tactics largely stem from the fact that you play on a 60x60 map, not on the tractor tricks of your opponent. Such a map is effectively large enough (i.e. 3600 hexes) to be a floating map when compared to the standard 30x42 map (1260 hexes), amounting to nearly triple the playing area.>>

Agreed. A 60x60 map is, effectively, an open floating map, assuming that the initial engagement takes place in the middle of the map. A plasma force can certainly just aggressively pursue and chase someone to the wall, but as the wall is, like, 2 regular maps away, a lot can happen between the point at which one starts aggressively chasing and the time that one gets to benefit from the edge of the map.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, March 11, 2021 - 09:27 am: Edit

Jeff,

You can open the new topic yourself, in "R00: PROPOSALS FOR NEW CLASSES". You don't need ADB to do it. If people are interested, they will post in your topic. If they aren't, they will ignore it.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, March 11, 2021 - 10:51 am: Edit

New topic created

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Thursday, March 11, 2021 - 06:28 pm: Edit

Charles Carroll,

Perhaps in the Campaign the Map size could be 50x50 (smaller than the 60x60 and a little larger than the standard map of 30x42, plasma to the wall a bit easier). The map is still open enough for maneuvering at a distance.

By Dan Bostwick (Danbostwick) on Monday, March 15, 2021 - 07:40 pm: Edit

I am looking for a little info on an SSD and hoping someone can help. The Lyran POL model on Shapeways clearly has an ESG greeble on the back, and the line art in the Lyran Master Starship Book matches that. My Lyran POL SSD does not have an ESG, although it is a little old. My SDD is dated 2000 and is from module R3. 2xP2, 2xP3, 1xDisr and no ESG. Can someone with a more modern SSD confirm the weapons suite for me?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, March 15, 2021 - 08:06 pm: Edit

That is correct, the POL/Manx has no ESG.

By Dan Bostwick (Danbostwick) on Monday, March 15, 2021 - 08:30 pm: Edit

Thank you Steve.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Wednesday, March 17, 2021 - 01:15 am: Edit

I will throw this comment out here...again lol. The size of the map and if it is an open map is not "ever" even a slight consideration in what I am discussing.

When you have ships at range 5 launching plasma at a ship that is running at a speed below what is possible to evade the plasma no matter what they do without using tractor tricks. The size of the map is not the issue. They just need about 15 hexes of movement.

Not 50 not 60 not 42 nor 30. But just 15. And realistically for most of the plasmas you are looking at either a total fall off of damage down to 1 point or none. Or maybe 5 damage when it should have been with an F or a G 20 to 15.

So the issue is not oh he could run and run and run...forever. No it is he cannot possible run. Yet because he "Falsely" slows down while getting extra movement. Can now turn. And do double side slips and never actually increase speed. What is happening is those critical spaces that appear in the movement chart where he does not move....now he does. And not only does he move. But he can turn and/or sideslip.

So please guys forget open maps. Or map size. The issue is at point blank range...where you will not be able to evade a torp. You can. Even if you do not have the ability to move fast enough to evade it. All brought to you by "GAINING"....and yes that is capitalized because that is the issue...movement hexes. While the game states...you are now going at a slower speed. So can now turn sooner than is possible for a ship at your untractored speed. Which because you "slowed down" but in no way slowed down...you can now turn.

So anyway....that is the only issues. Not ever map size at least when we are addressing Plasma avoidance.

Also Peter you did not answer if as a plasma player running a single ship, you could gain all these benefits and penalties of using a tractor on yourself. Would it make it worse for a plasma ship to play as a tournament ship because of how impossible it would make it to be hit by a plasma without Bolting or managing to get an Anchor?

The point here being that if this is bad for a single ship. It would be bad for a fleet action.

Anyway..I have made all the points I can about this and still no one addresses the actual points and instead I just get it is all about map size. No it is about hitting someone with a plasma inside of the plasma's range limit before it fades away from a very close launch.

By Steve Stewart (Stevestewart) on Wednesday, March 17, 2021 - 08:49 am: Edit

I didn't think you could tractor yourself...and even if you could, am I right in thinking it wouldn't generate any change in speed because your pseudo-speed and true speed would be the same?

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Wednesday, March 17, 2021 - 10:42 am: Edit

I point out that one can outrun a plasma without tractor tricks. One can reduce the warhead with phaser fire. One can use a wild weasel. One can use reinforced shields. And let us not forget the long arming cycle of the plasma torpedo.

There was a time (way back now) when bolting was not yet invented. As a plasma player, the sabot has equalized one of the plasma disadvantages. Still one has to be pretty close to guarantee a hit with a full strength sabot plasma.

And yet, it is satisfying to score a full strength hit with plasma. The plasma torpedo is the most powerful weapon in the game. Well that is if all the dis-advantages have somehow been neutralized.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Wednesday, March 17, 2021 - 11:15 am: Edit

"...still no one addresses the actual points..."

That's so rich who needs seconds!

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Wednesday, March 17, 2021 - 03:09 pm: Edit

It's worth noting what a tractored ship is not doing while it's tractored (by someone other than you): shooting at you. Use that.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Wednesday, March 17, 2021 - 07:35 pm: Edit

Alex, that phrase of Charles' smacks of flat-earther, anti-vaxxer and Q-Anon conspiracy theorist speech... If the arguments don't go their way, it is either a conspiracy, or people haven't *really* been addressing the points made...

At this point, I'm treating him like an annoying troll.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Wednesday, March 17, 2021 - 08:25 pm: Edit

Charles, here's the thing: we don't need to prove you wrong, because you being wrong results in the status quo since this use of tractors has been a known thing for decades, all the way up to the designers themselves, and has not resulted in the doomsday scenarios you keep describing.

It is incumbent upon *you*, the person trying to argue that the false vacuum of plasma tactics and whatever else is about to collapse any time know and reshape the fundamental tactics of the game.

Your use of of logic and building persuasive examples over the last month plus have proven woefully inadequate, as you have not swayed a single person, as the very people playing in the campaign where this has happening have chimed in with it hasn't been a big deal in their games, and you were shown to not even to understand the rules involved correctly.

At this point if you want to make any kind of case, you need hard data and lots of it. Not just your insistence on what's bound to happen.

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Thursday, March 18, 2021 - 12:00 pm: Edit

In the past, we have discussed what happens when 6 ships enter the detection range of 6 explosive mines that are all in the same hex. Depending on the detection settings of each mine, different results are theorized to happen. So, what happens with captor mines?

The case where the 6 captor mines have identical detection criteria results in a lot of dice rolling to determine which captor mine is triggered and which target it will shoot/launch at.

My question is what happens when 6 captor mines have different triggering criteria.

So each captor mine, in this case 6 large Plasma F captors, has slightly different triggering criteria. Size class is 2, 3, 4 (i.e. ships), range is 5 hexes or less, but the number of passes is 1 for the first captor, 2 for second captor, etc. My reading of the mine rules is that each ship will be targeted by 1 plasma F.

OK, so what happens next turn? The 6 ship captains may think that they are safe - i.e. the "small captor mines" expended their plasma. But, the large captors reset at the beginning of the turn. The next movement by the 6 ships will trigger the 6 captor mines again if they still meet the triggering criteria.

If one wants to be nasty, have a sensor mine control the 6 captor mines. So, 6 Plasma F's at the same target is rather appealing! And the rules say that a sensor mine ignores M2.4. (This is where a slow ship (speed 1 thru 6) has a chance not to trigger a mine via a nice die roll).

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Monday, March 22, 2021 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Question for those who know the map (and lore):

Was it ever established / published the names and locations of the Carnivon home worlds?