Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	X-tech for the "Lost Empires" (Carnivons, Alpha-Paravians)	4		05/12 10:29pm
	Paravian X-Ships	8		12/09 12:22pm
	"Lost Empire" Paravian Maulers	1		03/10 07:11pm
	Four-engine Paravian hull types	1		04/04 05:34pm
	Paravian Early Raid Mothership	1		04/25 04:59pm
	Carnivon Early Dreadnought	1		05/24 12:46pm
	Carnivon X-Ships	7		10/03 02:59pm
	Carnivon SRV	25		07/11 01:31pm
	The ISC in the "Lost Empire" timelines	5		10/26 04:18pm
	C6RR: Minor Empires Expansion	25		10/27 11:18am

Gary

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, April 06, 2021 - 11:19 pm: Edit

Thank you, SVC.

I was hoping to suggest a potential "Module C6R: Lost Empire Reinforcements" module for future consideration. As the name suggests, this file would expand upon the "lost empire" Carnivons and Paravians as featured in Module C6.

In terms of what a would-be "C6R" product might cover, I had the following ideas:

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X-ships.

There are various BBS topics discussing what first-generation X-ships might look like for the C6 empires - to include speculating on how one might develop X-upgrades to the disruptor cannon, the heel nipper, the death bolt, and/or the quantum wave torpedo.

Rather than competing for space in the proposed Module X1B, I wonder if it might be more fitting to keep these "lost empire" X1-ships in a dedicated "lost empire" product.

Also, were Module X2 to be worked on in the (hopefully) not-too-distant future, one could even consider adding some Paravian and Carnivon X2-ships to this file.

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Local Defence ships.

I would not seem entirely unreasonable to envision a series of "L-series" ships in Paravian and Carnivon service, akin to the Federation GCA and the Klingon LD4 in Module R8.

In the case of the Paravians, I might suggest on the one hand that they swap out the cargo and NWO boxes for more "non-modular" systems, akin to those on the "modern" Paravian warships in Module C6. But on the other hand, I would prefer that their L-ships be stuck with the same Turn Mode issues faced by their W- and Y-era counterparts.

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More new "modern" ships.

There are a number of new hull types and/or mission variants which could be considered for the "modern" GURPS Prime Directive Tech Level 12 Paravian and Carnivon fleets.

For the Paravians, there is the potential for more "four-engine" hull types (such as a new heavy cruiser or a heavy war cruiser), as well as new "three-engine" units (such as a corvette or a light battleship).

For the Carnivons, there is a proposed early (i.e. Middle Years) dreadnought, to stand akin to a Klingon C6 or Lyran Royal Tiger DNE. Plus, they could potentially be given new "two-engine" hull types (such as a corvette or light battleship); or more "three-engine" hulls akin to the HDW, which might perhaps include the NCA variants pre-emptively listed on the current Carnivon SIT for the proposed "lost empires" module for Federation and Empire. Although I do acknowledge that I had expressed a lack of enthusiasm for a would-be Carnivon NCA at the time said SIT was first posted to the BBS, in hindsight I would hope that some means of building "up" from the Carnivon CW could be found that makes the resulting ship stand far enough apart from the CA to make one not merely a re-tread of the other.

For both "lost empires", there are their area control ships and war scout carriers in Captain's Log #48. Perhaps heavy cruiser and war cruiser maulers could be drawn up? Or even some dedicated SSDs for Paravian and Carnivon bases?

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More "lost empire" timelines.

Module C6 offers three "Paravian timelines", plus two "Carnivon timelines". I would like to see additional timeline options worked up here.

For the Paravians, I had speculated elsewhere on a "Treaty of Circle Trigon" timeline, through which the Romulans acquire a number of Paravian hull types in lieu of Kestrels - or, perhaps even go so far as to build Paravian-type hulls under licence.

I also think it would be interesting to see a Paravian timeline in which the Holdfast Sphere went to Draco rather than braving the Galactic Energy Barrier, thus leaving the Klingons free to conquer the Romulans. So, the role of the Romulan Star Empire on "Mapsheet P" would be played by the Imperial Klingon Marches, as previewed for F&E in Captain's Log #44. Perhaps the Paravians might offer the IKM access to leased territory in the "off-map" Farnest, as they do to the Romulans in the playtest Paravian F&E scenario in Captain's Log #48.

For the Carnivons, I think it would be interesting to offer a "Carnivon Empire" variant in which the Klingons allied with the Carnivons, instead of either the Lyrans or the Kzintis. The Lyran Star Empire might need to find an alternate source of fighters in such a timeline, though I would suggest the Carnivons keep the same fighters and bombers seen in Module C6. Presumably the Klingons would lease access to the "off-map" Remote Ranges, as shown on the ("Mapsheet C1"?) F&E map in Captain's Log #51, in lieu of their "typical" agreements with the Lyran Far Stars Duchy.

Of course, I'm sure there are plenty of other "lost empire" timeline options out there that could be worked up - not least ones that leaned heavily on the material set to be published in Module R4J.

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Miscellaneous items.

This heading is for those things which would be a factor in at least some of the "lost empire" timelines in play.

For example, any "Carnivon Empire" timeline which sees the WYN Cluster develop as it did historically might find itself deploying WYN-Carnivon and/or WYN-Paravian hulls of various types.

Also, given how dramatic a change any of the "Mapsheet P" timelines make to the development of the Inter-Stellar Concordium, an "update" file which detailed what this means in actual game terms would be quite welcome.

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And as a side note, if any of these new ships or rules could later be "borrowed" for use by the Paravians of Omega, or perhaps for the (alleged) Carnivons of the Sargasso Storm Zone, all the better.

As would any material that could one day be transferred over to the "lost empire" project for Federation Commander.

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So, has Module C6 itself been enough of a success to warrant consideration of a follow-up module? And if so, what would you like to see such a file include?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, April 07, 2021 - 04:00 pm: Edit

To add another potential option to the mix, I was minded of Mike West's "no drones for Feds" proposal over in the Stellar Shadows corner of the BBS, in terms of how this might what kind of imported fighters the Gorns would be able to use in such a setup.

Perhaps an additional "Mapsheet P" timeline in this product could have the Gorns import their fighter designs from the ISC, rather than a "no-drone" Federation.

They could still recruit Skolean pilots to fly them, presuming the Fed-Gorn alliance develops as it historically did.

(I had already suggested this over in that thread, but it might be better to keep such "Mapsheet P"-dependent suggestions to this thread instead.)

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Saturday, April 10, 2021 - 10:12 pm: Edit

As the point of most of these efforts is to keep the changes as minimal as possible, the answer to your question about the ship changes to ISC in conjunction with Mapsheet P is, "Nothing." The intention is that their ships would remain unchanged, even if there are YIS updates.

On Gorn fighters, if they are not Fed fighters, the pilots are not Skoleans. And if they do import fighters from the ISC, maybe they are big enough to fly on their own? Also, if you want the Gorns to use ISC fighters, don't link it to the "no drone" Feds. Just postulate it as it's own scenario. Much better chance of seeing it somewhere. You will have to overcome the factor that they are enemies in just about every timeline that the Gorn exist as a political entity.

On the concept of a Klingon-Carnivon Empire alliance, I like that. It makes little sense, but it would be a lot of fun as far as how the political dynamics change. Especially if done as an "everyone hates everyone" type situation. Thinking about it, though, I think the only change would be the Klingons switching their alliance. The Kzinti would still have their deal with the Hydrans, so the odd man out would be the Lyrans, not the Carnivons. It would require zero new SSDs, but, yes, the Lyrans would need new fighters.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Monday, April 12, 2021 - 06:32 pm: Edit

But wouldn't it require new SITs to be published?

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, April 12, 2021 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Ken - why would it? These are variant backgrounds to justify new SFB ships and rules and play dynamics. In theory, yes, the brainstorming about the necessary strategic level changes to make them internally consistent and interesting could lead to F&E variants - but those have the much larger hurdle of "Will need new countersheets" and thus I doubt will ever be a thing

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, April 12, 2021 - 10:55 pm: Edit

I don't think it would be expected that any of these variant timelines would necessarily have any F&E impact, outside new scenarios, as they are designed to allow you to play with the mashed up ships.

That said, I don't think R4J would require new F&E counters, just more Eagles. (Yes, there are new ships, but they can likely be glossed over.) The main thing is the altered alliances and earlier entry of the Romulans to warp relevance.

For the drone-less Feds, that gets completely wiped out by the granularity of F&E. It doesn't matter the weapons, a Fed CA is an 8. And since the political situation is unchanged, it would have literally zero effect for F&E.

For Romulan purchased Paravian hulls, while noticeably different in SFB, would likely be just be reskinned KR ships in F&E. Even if not exact, it would work just fine for playing out the alternative scenarios.

And for fighters, who cares? In F&E, fighters are completely abstracted out into fighter factors, so whether the Gorns uses fighters from the Federation, Romulans, Kzinti, ISC, or just make their own, a fighter factor is a fighter factor.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Tuesday, April 13, 2021 - 05:13 pm: Edit

There is more to the question of what changes the "Mapsheet P" timelines make to the development of the ISC in both SFB and F&E terms, but I would kindly ask if that discussion could be held over in its dedicated thread rather than in this one.

Actually, just as a number of M81-related BBS threads have recently been moved to the "RM81 module" as sub-threads, I'd hope to see one or more of the equivalent "lost empire" proposals moved over as sub-threads to this "Module C6R" discussion.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, April 14, 2021 - 06:34 pm: Edit

Thank you to SVC for consolidating the various Module C6R-related discussions here.

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To add to the "miscellaneous" section, it is worth noting that for those "Mapsheet P" timelines in which the ISC Pacification never happens (due to the Concordium being dragged into an expanded General War instead), there is no opportunity for the Echelon of Judgment to carry out its historical mission against the Seltorian Hive Ship Burning Torch of Vengeance, as detailed under (SH246.0) in Module X1R.

So, there would be the question of what, if anything, were to happen to the Torch expedition instead. Might the Andromedans throw a few Dominators its way? Would the Tholians, or perhaps a joint Tholian-Federation task force, go after it instead? Or might the Klingons, once they begin to register how dangerous it would be to keep the Seltorians around, decide that enough is enough and move to settle matters by themselves?

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There's no guarantee that the Romulan Civil War would still break out as it did historically - but if it did, it might play out for a longer period of time, with no ISC intervention to force the issue. Perhaps it would not be before the Andromedan invasion that the Civil War would be settled, one way or another.

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On a similar note, in any "Mapsheet P" timeline in which the WYNs exist as they did historically, there would not be any ISC incursion to trigger an early end to the War of Return. If one assumes that said war were to break out as it did historically, that is.

Indeed, with no ISC incursion to trigger the return of any WYN-Orion ships to the Cluster, might the odds of a successful Andromedan attack be that much higher?

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And then there is the prospect of a "Cluster Carnivon" timeline.

If the ISC Pacification were to still happen, how might the ISC adjust their plans for Task Force Echo and Task Force Foxtrot in order to account for these revised borders?

And if there is no Pacification (for one reason or another), how differently might the onset of the Andromedan invasion play out in this region?

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While most of the alternate timelines in Module C6 stop at some point before or during the General War, perhaps Module C6R could take a look at some of these post-General War conflicts, to see how the presence of one or both of these "lost empires" might shape the course of events.

By Eric Silverman (Ericsilverman) on Thursday, May 12, 2022 - 10:58 pm: Edit

Would love to see a C6R come to fruition. There are quite a few entries on the Carnivon SIT that could show up there: Interdiction Carrier (CVD); Division Control Ship (DCS); New Cruiser variants (NCA/NCC/NCF/NCG/NCV/NCS/NCT/NCP); Patrol Carrier (CWU); Medium Carrier (CWH); and of course the various X-Ships which have yet to appear. For the Paravians I could see a similar list developing.

I like the idea of corvettes and light battleships for both. Maybe heavy battleships too. I'd also like the Area Control Ships and War Scout Carriers to come over from CL48 too; would be great to have them in a module with counters.

With all that stuff, plus local defence ships and bases, that'd be a nice chunky module already. These are just the obvious things too; I'm sure that more interesting things could be done based on what Gary's proposed (like Paravian four-engine hulls, maulers, etc.).

By Eric Silverman (Ericsilverman) on Saturday, May 14, 2022 - 07:28 am: Edit

As a quick addendum to my message above -- Medium Dreadnoughts and X Light Raiding Dreadnoughts would be fun to have for the Carnivons/Paravians as well.