SPP,

Recently in "The Next Module" discussion I remarked that I had never understood why you and SVC so disliked the "Partial-X Refit" rules. As a player I like those rules a lot. They allow players a greater degree of freedom to customize their forces to their own liking, while being more restrained and limited than the old and infamous "S3.3" rules that resulted in some serious abuses. I'm not aware of any comparably severe "XP-refit" abuses. But if there are some, are they such as cannot be addressed by tweaking the XP rules?

And something like that unquestionably does happen in the real world. Many WW-1 and inter-war warships, designed and built before radar, were refitted with radar during WW-2. And a number of WW-2 warships had some of their gun armament replaced with guided missiles in the post-war period. Currently, many "4th Generation" fighters (such as F-15, F-16, and F/A-18) are having their radars upgraded to AESA (Active Electronically Scanned Array) radars. Some are also receiving some "stealth" features (though they can never be as stealthy as something like an F-22 or F-35 designed to be "low observable" from the beginning). Also, the fire control systems for those fighters (the 4th Generation ones, not the F-22 or F-35) were originally designed for AIM-7 "Sparrow" missiles and had to be upgraded to make them compatible with the AIM-120 "AMRAAM". XP-refits in SFB seem highly analogous to these "real world" upgrades.

I recognize there might be problems with XP that are apparent to the designer and developer, but not necssarily to the players. But what are they? I'm not trying to be snarky or obnoxious. I'm just curious why ADB thinks the XP rules are a mistake. As already stated, I like them a lot as a player.

By James Cain (Jcain) on Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 02:46 pm: Edit

(R8.210) in Captain's Log 37 says that just prior to the General War, a Lion's Heart Cartel enforcer ship fled after failing to establish his own cartel after failing to make himself Cartel Lord.

Is anything else documented about this incident, and if so, where can I find such?

Thanks!

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, August 19, 2020 - 05:12 pm: Edit

James Cain:

It may have been a mistake in the transcription from this file:

Gullwind: Orion CA, once part of Penzance but had to go independent after failing to replace Cartel Lord, commanded by Chromin, Encounter at Denebola.

It could be that we did that entry from memory of when we noticed that Gullwind was not in its operational area (Denebola is in the Pharoah Cartel area). Somehow we misconstrued the ship as being a Lion's Cartel ship.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, November 18, 2020 - 11:56 pm: Edit

Historically, what was the largest base the WYN player had during the General War and during War of Return? What is the upper size limit for WYN bases during these periods?

By Steve Stewart (Stevestewart) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 05:31 am: Edit

There was a BATS in Module R1; there isn't a WYN Sector Base (which is the next one up) in R8.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 11:54 am: Edit

"Taking First Base"

The Usurpers forces capture a major Kzinti base at the start of the War of Return. BATS, if I remember correctly.

HOWEVER, that may have been an unclear part of the original Air Force Tapes; it might have actually been a Sector Base.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 04:49 pm: Edit

Thanks guys, but I will need an official answer from SPP since it involves F&E related developmental material like historical scenarios and OOBs. F&E material MUST follow the established history and limits of SFB as set forth by ADB.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 06:07 pm: Edit

The ship description for the Sector base (R1.47) specifically states the Orions, Neo-Tholians, Andromedans, WYN, or Seltorians did not use Sector Bases.

In the WYN background is (R12.2) WYN Captured and Converted ships, and the last bullet point says "Several Base Stations and battle stations" were used by the WYN during the General War.

In Basic Set under (R1.1C) Notes is "The Orions, LDR, and WYN do not have Starbases."

There is no reference I am aware of that says the WYNs got a base larger than a battle station. Technically, however, during the War of Return they could have used the Count's bases once he began openly supporting the Usurper after the capture of Battle Station Rampart.

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 07:27 pm: Edit

So what do the WYN use to build, convert, and repair thier ships?

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 08:52 pm: Edit

Ryan,

The Orions had Docks in Wyn Space, they built, repaired etc ships....

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 08:53 pm: Edit

Ryan,

Orions had Docks in Wyn Space...

By Ryan Opel (Ryan) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 09:58 pm: Edit

Eventually they had docks there. What about the first 20 years?

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Thursday, November 19, 2020 - 10:18 pm: Edit

A few thousand refugees on a handful of badly damaged ships arriving unexpectedly at a resource rich planet with no infrastructure whatsoever somehow managed to locate and exploit those resources, build a colony, rear and educate a new generation of colonists, repair their ships, and build additional freighters and warships (without docks or any manufacturing base) simply by working triple shifts all the while keeping a wary eye out for invaders.

"Alice laughed: "There's no use trying," she said; "one can't believe impossible things."

"I daresay you haven't had much practice," said the Queen. "When I was younger, I always did it for half an hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast."

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 12:20 am: Edit

"Your Magesty, if I may, if you've finished six impossible things before breakfast, may I humbly suggest you cap your morning with breakfast as Milliways, the Restaurant at the End of the Universe?"

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 12:56 am: Edit

The bought freighters, they didn't build them. Converting them was easy at that point.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 02:08 am: Edit

I could be remembering this wrong but I thought that the background article for the WYN in Y3 had them building a bunch of stuff before they made contact with the Orions or their neighbors.

Y-versions of the Auxilary Cruiser and Auxilary Battlecruiser and some Y-freighters as well.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 03:24 am: Edit

Doesn't sound right. But there may have been freighters with them when they entered.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 07:45 am: Edit

YR12.4 states that the first YAxC entered service in Y120.

Based on what is in various R-section ship descriptions and the MSC, the WYN fleet in Y136 appears to be:

2x YFF
5 or 6x YAxC
3xYAxBC

As to the question of what the WYN used to build, convert, and repair ships, I would posit that the answer is, "Whatever the LDR, Vudar, and Orions use to build, convert, and repair ships." None of them have bases larger than a BATS but they all manage the task.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 08:00 am: Edit

This sounds like a story I need to research and then tell. I can see them struggling to keep the ships intact, surveying planets, evacuating the worst damaged ships to the best available planets, then using some ships as scrap metal and taking one fairly big one and docking it to the best metal-bearing asteroid they can find and turning that into a defacto repair/conversion "dock" thing.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, November 20, 2020 - 09:08 am: Edit

There is an historical monograph in Module Y3 which details what the WYN-Kzintis could - and could not - manage prior to the initial Orion arrival.

In addition, there is a series of scenarios set during the Usurper War in Module Y2, the last of which (SH257.0) depicting the climactic dive into the WYN Cluster itself; while there is a scenario in Module Y3 (SH269.0) depicting the "first contact" between the WYN-Kzintis and the Orions.

On a side note, I'd be curious to see what - if any - of the data on the WYN Cluster to be drawn up in F&E terms might one day also apply to the "Cluster Carnivons" detailed in one of the "lost empire" timelines over in Module C6.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, November 21, 2020 - 12:39 pm: Edit

Do you think there is any logic to having low-warp only (Warp-2, maybe Warp-3) space ships in the Trek universe for in-system (Earth to Mars) or nearby systems (Sol to Alpha Centauri) routes and/or to be used as ship tenders and such? Actually, as I type this, a thought occurred that in-system ships might not even need FTL engines but would need to be able to make 10% to 25% light speed for the Earth-Mars or Earth-Titan runs in a reasonable time.

Please note: I am NOT suggesting a new class of ships to be including in SFB!!! This is simple "background research" for fiction writing.


Garth L. Getgen

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Saturday, November 21, 2020 - 02:12 pm: Edit

Good question, Sgt G, but thinking about it, I think what's already there fits the bill nicely. Quite a few ships already in the game can't reach Speed 30; standard freighters and skiffs come foremost to mind. I suspect that skiffs are probably used extensively for in-system commutes (the Earth to Mars you brought up) and the standard freighters have variants that're used as the ship tenders (repair freighters and oilers come foremost to mind).

While it is true that these are "Tactical Speeds," it occurs to me that, if freighters were capable of strategic speeds, then scenarios like "Cruise Drones" (and indeed most of the times when a pirate captures a freighter) would be situations where the freighter, moving at strategic speeds, would simply not be engaged.

Anyway, that's my 0.002 Quatloos worth.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, November 21, 2020 - 05:27 pm: Edit

Jeff, while they can't reach Speed 30 in the tactical game, they can make Warp 4+ in strategic movement. And skiffs have decent space legs, too. They should be able to make the Earth-Vulcan run in a matter of hours, a couple days at most. I'm trying to think of reasons to have a slower ship with shorter legs, that would take weeks / months to make the Earth-Vulcan run and might not have the range to do so. To be honest, my thoughts are trending away from the idea. I do think a sub-light ship would make sense for in-system use, however.


Garth L. Getgen

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Sunday, November 22, 2020 - 11:38 am: Edit

These slower freighters are already in the game.

The old style tramp freighters. IIRC the small one has 4 warp total.

In any case, you have to figure that the cost of crew eventually makes it cheaper to have faster freighters (within reason) than slow ones.

But yeah, as a thought experiment lets make a run to Alpha Centauri from Earth, of 4.5 LY. Warp 2 would be 205 days. Warp 3 is 60 days, Warp 4 is 25 days and Warp 5 would be 13 days. Warp 6 gets you down to a week. Warp 7 is 4.8 days...

The above is based on LY divided by (cube of warp number is speed multiple of light speed)= passage time in years. time 365 to get passage time in days.

So there is probably a tipping point where going a faster isn't worth the increased cost of fuel/ engines/ maintenance, etc. And an inverse tipping point where the faster stuff more than pays for itself by requiring less payroll, life support, banana pudding...

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, November 22, 2020 - 12:34 pm: Edit

Mike, true, except something I had forgotten about --- in the SFB world, to calculate speeds above Tactical Warp, above Warp 3.14159, there is an additional factor that multiplies Warp-Factor-Cubed by about 64. My guess, this accounts for the average "gravitational bending" naturally occurring in Space-Time.

Warp 4 is not 64 times light-speed, but rather 4096 x light. Warp 5 is 8000 times light speed. (There's another 10x multiplier above Warp 9 for some reason.)

Per GURPS PD 4e (rev 4), Page 296, a freighter can make 4.97 parsecs per day, or 16.2 light years per day. Ergo, it's six hours, give or take, from Earth to Alpha Centauri.


Garth L. Getgen