Thanks Jeff, Steve. I'll use that until I hear otherwise.

By Marcel Trahan (Devilish6996) on Saturday, March 27, 2021 - 10:11 am: Edit

The rule under S8.334 specifies that Fast DN can be accompanied by other fast ships
Does that mean that you can have 2 fast DN in the same fleet as long has they dont any non fast ships with them?

Marcel

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Saturday, March 27, 2021 - 11:16 am: Edit

Marcel,

See (S8.331) There can be no more than one size-class-2 ship (dreadnoughts, battleships, most CVAs and SCSs) in the fleet.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Saturday, March 27, 2021 - 11:42 am: Edit

Marcel I suspect it means you can have two fast ships, as long as all other rules are obeyed. So, no to two DNLs.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Saturday, March 27, 2021 - 04:41 pm: Edit

Douglas Saldana asked on Friday, March 26, 2021: Annex 8B shows web casters as being tech that is available to pirates in the Tholian Home Galaxy. Is that correct? I would think the Tholians would spare no expense in destroying anyone who got ahold of their technology.

ANSWER: Yes, it is correct. While Web Casters were a closely guarded technological secrete of the Tholian Will, there were a couple of things going on that resulted in some of that technology leaking. One is that there is a scenario where Tholian DoGooders basically fight against the Will, and not just any DoGooders, but a sector governor. That gets you into the concept that such DoGooders might take actions inimical to The Will at different levels, including providing some Web Caster Devices. There is also the after effects of such a civil conflict where a Tholian ship that was on the losing side might join the pirates to survive. Then there is the sheer size of the empire (a galaxy, albeit a small one) which has monsters which might kill a tholian ship that had web casters and some enterprising agency finds the web casters.

Basically, while the former Officer in me is loathe to admit it, there are always loopholes for even the biggest secret to slip out. Consider how successful we were in keeping the Manhattan project form slipping out, and how soon after Word War II the Soviet Union demonstrated their bomb.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, March 29, 2021 - 09:38 am: Edit

In light of the ongoing M81 module discussions elsewhere on the BBS, I wonder if it might yet be possible to perhaps re-frame the above question as a matter of technological and/or logistical constraints, rather than an issue of availability (or of leaked intelligence).

As a point of comparison, other empires with their own distinct derivations of tractor beam technology, namely the Bolosco and the Andromedans, count these technologies as restricted to their respective empires.

For example, say if the Sigvirions had infected the crews of both a Bolosco ship and a Zosman ship (both are noted as having happened historically, at least at separate points in time). While the Sigs would be able to operate both ships normally (perhaps due to their acquiring such knowledge from their infected hosts), as well as to transfer those systems which would be mutually compatible to both ships (such as tachyon missiles, or the five Omega phaser types available to the Bolosco), even they would not be able to remove the Bolosco ship's focused tractor beams or integrated warp tractors and successfully install them on the Zosman ship.

While I acknowledge that the Holdfast Tholians were able to install web generators onto the "Klingon" portion of the hybrid TK5 Exile (though it's unclear as to precisely how much work this required in terms of re-configuring the interior of the F5 secondary hull), even that ship is still being operated by a crew of Tholians, with the logistical network provided by the Holdfast in place to support its use.

On a side note, I'm minded of the note regarding the captured Early Years Klingon freighters in early Holdfast use from the Tholian Master Starship Book, in which the Tholians had to install a sealed chamber to serve as "living quarters" while operating the rest of ship wearing encounter suits. I wonder if the "military" hardware aboard the Exile's secondary hull was more able to function in a Tholian-friendly environment, or if it also requires the crew to operate it while wearing encounter suits?

To double back to the topic at hand, I would personally prefer any form of web system to remain restricted Tholian technology, even in the home galaxy - if perhaps due to the inability of other empires to use it, if not for lack of trying. So, in the case of a Tholian "reformer" (or escapee) offering aid to a High Pirate Band, such assistance would be limited to those technologies (phasers, particle cannons, and such) common to both sides.

By Steven Zamboni (Szamboni) on Monday, March 29, 2021 - 10:30 am: Edit

How many Klingon subjects do they have access to on the captured colony worlds? How many years have passed for the generations of Klingons that have known nothing but the benevolent and caring rule of their Tholian protectors?

After a hundred years, the Holdfast could find a way to produce a few hundred Klingon zealots to crew captured and purchased ships to defend their homes from the demonic Seltorians and their fallen Klingon servants. A small group of Tholian officers in the "boom" could provide guidance for a largely Klingon crew, which would require minimal refitting of the ships (in fact, Klingon ships are already wired for this operation).

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, March 29, 2021 - 10:38 am: Edit

Benevolent or otherwise (I suspect the latter), that does lead to an interesting question: do the Holdfast Tholians permit the Klingon colonists to operate the kind of freighters, auxiliaries, and fixed defences that the various subjugated species had been permitted to operate back in the home galaxy (as detailed in the Tholian Master Starship Book); or are the colonists kept strictly planet-bound, with all matters of off-world shipping and planetary defence handled by the Tholians themselves?

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, March 29, 2021 - 11:57 am: Edit

Curiously, Shield Crackers, Web Breakers and Web Casters are all listed as "available only to pirates in the original Tholian Home Galaxy" in Annex 8B but Web Generators are only listed in the "simulator use only" section of the annex.

I'm assuming that's an oversight since it would probably be easier for Pirates to get their hands on a web generator (which is only carried by the PC, the NFF, and some auxilliaries) than it would be to capture a Web Caster which I don't think is carried by anything smaller than a NDD.

Also curious to know if Annex 8B is consistent with the options given for Home Galaxy Pirates in Captain's Log. Perhaps the Web Caster (and maybe the Web Breaker as well) should have the same restrictions as the Stasis Field Generator has in relation to the Orions (can only be used if captured in a campaign).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, March 29, 2021 - 01:33 pm: Edit

Gary Carney:

1. The Tholians did not install a sealed chamber. They sealed an area of the existing ship which did not have an excessive ned to protect sensitive electronics and other materials from the Tholian life support needs.

2. Warships have to be prepared for a lot of different problems. If there is a beach in the hull in an otherwise unnecessary area, that breach could affect electronics systems by damaging the connections between two areas, i.e., the power conduits are an example. It does not mean everything in the rear hull is so tough, but the amount of refurbishing is kept to a minimum and the Tholians can enjoy a "shirt sleeve environment" in the Tholian forward hull.

3. Given recent Tholian history, I cannot see the Holdfast Tholians ever (at least within the format of recorded Tholian history through the end of the current record) ever allowing a subject species access to ship construction or unsupervised access to space. If they were even considering such, the arrival of the Seltorians would have put paid to it.

So, no. There are not going to be any non-Tholian ship crews. There are not going to be any non-Tholian ship construction. The only non-Tholians allowed by the Tholian Holdfast into space are going to be drafts of non-Tholians who are transported by Tholians to worksites supervised by Tholians to make sure they do exactly what they are expected to do, and a Tholian will be on a trigger to turn off their life support if they try anything the Tholians think (THINK, not KNOW) is hinky.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Monday, March 29, 2021 - 01:45 pm: Edit

"the benevolent and caring rule of their Tholian protectors"

I suspect the Tholians just demanded a certain level of taxes and kept the locals trapped in their systems. Maybe "impulse only" skiffs and freighters to harvest system resources.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, March 29, 2021 - 04:12 pm: Edit

SPP,

Thank you for your replies.

I wonder if a similar setup to that on the Exile applied to ships captured by other species with their own divergent atmospheric requirements, such as the Hydrans. In that case, the issue would be in the other direction, as the Hydran systems to be installed on the Anarchist would need a much colder operating temperature to the Klingon norms, rather than much higher ones in the case of the Tholians.

-----

On a side note, are the Klingons the species whose technologies have been "exported" the most, through fair means or foul?

Be it the Romulan Kestrels; the captured ships (or partial hull sections) in foreign service, such as the Exile and Anarchist; the Klingon-type engines on WYN "fish ships", Vudar warships, and Federal Republic of Aurora destroyers; the Klingon-type fighters in Lyran, LDR, WYN, Seltorian, and (briefly) Vudar service; or even the captured Klingon disruptor samples in the Tholian Holdfast.

By my reckoning, That makes for what appears to be the broadest variety of empires with a common source of at least a portion of their technological base.

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Monday, March 29, 2021 - 05:21 pm: Edit

Hi Gary,

The Tholians might be another good candidate. According to the technology timeline, they brought phaser Is, phaser IVs, transporters and tractors to the galaxy. The Klingons might have more individual "exports", but the Tholian "exports" ended up everywhere.

Jay

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, March 29, 2021 - 05:36 pm: Edit

Mike Grafton:

The Tholians likely captured some sub-light Romulan freighters and skiffs back in the day so handing those over to their Klingon subjects (operating far in the interior) would be a plausible compromise.

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, March 29, 2021 - 06:28 pm: Edit

After the success of the Seltorians, I would be shocked if the Tholians let them have sublight shuttles.

By A David Merritt (Adm) on Monday, March 29, 2021 - 06:31 pm: Edit

The Vulcans had ph-1s on their ships, before the Tholians got here.

By Randy Green (Hollywood750) on Monday, March 29, 2021 - 07:21 pm: Edit

It would not be logical to have less than a ph-1.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, March 30, 2021 - 02:34 pm: Edit

In the good old days of the Tholian Will, Tholians did not engage in menial labor outside of Tholian ships or Tholian Dyson spheres, The only reason some Tholians were engaged in menial labor on Tholian ships and Tholian Dyson sphere is the life support to maintain Tholian life was inimical to all other species and Tholians had not developed the "Drex." The Tholians might have had he equivalent of Roombas in their living quarters, for example. But there would have been the Tholian equivalent of Plumbers and Electricians simply because having such tasks done by other species was nearly impossible.

Changing the Life Support on a Hydran ship to support Klingons, or vice versa, is simple by comparison to changing any non-Tholians ship to support Tholian life. Changing a Tholian ship to support non-Tholian life, even Hydran life, is relatively easy because the heat you need to work in is so much less. There might be some areas of the ship that require the Heat and if there is no substitute it will have to be "managed." But almost all of the circuitry of non-Tholians would break down under Tholian life support needs.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, March 30, 2021 - 03:06 pm: Edit

We know from a Prime Directive scenario (SPOILER WARNING) that the Tholians were able to construct crystalline “robot survey modules” (called Seekers) that were able to “operate independently over great distances” and were capable of piloting small starships and engaging in boarding actions but this technology was limited to the Tholian Inter-Galactic Survey Arm (TIGSA).

It's possible that the Tholians used less sophisticated "robot modules" for more mundane tasks that they found to be either too dangerous or too tedious.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, March 31, 2021 - 11:18 am: Edit

Douglas, you need to cite the location of the scenario. What product, what page?

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Wednesday, March 31, 2021 - 12:28 pm: Edit

It's from the 1993 Prime Directive Core Book, "Web of Darkness" adventure.

Most of the background for the Seeker is on pages 147 & 150-151.
There is also a SFB Scenario SD1.0 that covers the same incident on page 172 (but is not playable without Prime Directive).

I guess I don't know if this adventure is still canon (since it's from an old edition) but I always loved this adventure and the background. Exciting stuff.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, March 31, 2021 - 12:29 pm: Edit

SVC, I think Douglas is talking about "Web of Darkness" from the original Prime Directive RPG (the original one developed by Timothy D. Olsen and Mark Costello). The scenario starts on Page 147, the stats for the Seeker/Snarer are on Page 150, and the SFB scenario (SD1.0) Web of Darkness is on Page 172 of my copy of the game.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, March 31, 2021 - 02:07 pm: Edit

PD1 isn't really reliable canon. I would not consider that a valid datapoint.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Saturday, April 24, 2021 - 11:59 am: Edit

(R1.R-3) MSSB-R3 Klingon - The title for the (R1.R2) refit is Y158 Early Base Refits, but the text states prior to Y165. Which is correct? - Ken Kazinski, 24 Apr 2021.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Saturday, April 24, 2021 - 07:15 pm: Edit

Ken, both (Y158 is before Y165) ...