Thank you.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Monday, April 26, 2021 - 06:57 pm: Edit

Question regarding loading SPs.

At WS 2 or 3....can you use loaded racks to supply drones for the Scatter packs?

I seem to remember a while back this came up and the answer was drones on a prepared SP needed to have been drawn from storage not from the loaded racks.

So....loaded racks and Storage or only storage at the start of a scenario? I seem to remember something about have to unload a rack to get drones off the loaded rack which means the SP would not be ready turn one.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Monday, April 26, 2021 - 09:27 pm: Edit

Charles: see rule (FD7.212).

By Peter DiMitri (Pdimitri) on Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - 06:22 am: Edit

I guess more directly - a Klingon F5 has 4 spaces in the rack, 4 in reloads. At WS 2 or 3 it can have an SP ready, but in order to have 6 drones in the SP, 2 would have to come from the racks before the scenario begins. Is this not allowed? Is an F5 (or any ship with less than 6 reloads) unable to have a full SP at the start of the scenario? Or can some of the SP drones have come from the rack before the scenario began?

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - 02:29 pm: Edit

We naturally looked there Alex and as is often the case. There is questionable wording.

Can you take drones from the racks to load a scatter pack? Without question. The rule says you can.

Can you take drones from the racks at the start of the scenario under WS II or WS III? The rule says the drones must come from storage.

So just to get Steve to state his answer again. Since the rule seems to say you can get drones from the racks to load a scatter pack. Which indeed you can during a scenario by unloading the rack.

But it also appears to say, and I recall Steve saying at some time in past, that you cannot pull loaded drones from racks at the start of the scenario as this rule states in the WS part, Drones are pulled from storage.

So just trying to be sure we do it right lol.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - 02:47 pm: Edit

And another question dealing with my favorite topic. Tractor tricks.

1 ship...tractors 2 of its fleets ships. So all are on the same side. 2 ships are decided by the rules to supply the movement power for calculating the ships speeds. So far so good. The third ship is ignored in the calculations.

Now according to G7.373 it appears that while the ship will be listed as speed 0 so as not to supply movement energy to the calculation. It is still in reality moving exactly as if it was the second ship tractored and based on its movement costs would be gaining hexes moved and so be able to turn when ever its turn mode become satisfied as if it had used its own movement to be part of the tractored calculations. So even though it is shown as speed 0, in the SFBOL client it is actually moving as if tractored and can turn based on its own separate pseudo speed.I believe the last line in the rule states this concept.

Now, assuming I am wrong and the ship is considered speed 0. Then it should be able to tac possibly from batteries to accomplish this.

It also lends some interesting ideas as to how to turn the 0 speed ship in an opposite direction possibly or at least off set direction from the others without it causing any movement issues.

So...can the third or additional ships, turn in impulses they are not scheduled to...since they calculate their movement normally within the limits of being tractored, but it has no effect on the other ships in the tractored group?

Reason of course normally would be you want your stack of ships to always remain a stack. So if one ship is not turning with the rest it gets left behind.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - 03:53 pm: Edit

Charles - this is why when you ask rules questions, it helps to actually ask what you have questions about in detail and cite the rules you are looking at and what specifically you aren't sure about.

If the rules say the drones are drawn from storage in the specified circumstance (SP's prepared under WS provisions), then what is unclear there? There is no contradiction in "Drones for a SP can come from location A or location B in general, but drones for a SP in this specific circumstance can only come from location."

And to touch on Peter's point, yes, it does indeed look to mean a ship that doesn't have six spaces of drones in storage can only start with a partially loaded SP via (S4.1) - which means picking up a few extra drones as (S3.2) Commander's Options would prove wise if you want to start with a full pack!

For the multi-tractor engagement - why would you think they can turn in impulses they aren't scheduled to any more than any other ship would be able to? Ships excluded from being the two ships moving the entire group are not speed 0. They have whatever practical speed they paid for, a pseudo speed based on the total move cost of the linked group, and a maneuver rate based on whatever other functions may apply. (G7.373) says to "ignore the points generated by the smaller units" not that those units are in way at a speed 0 of any kind.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - 04:19 pm: Edit

Alex since the SFBOL Client makes the 3rd ship speed 0. Most people see it as speed 0. So it is not moving. It is being dragged along.

Which was why I was asking for clarification. I have so far not seen anyone that has 3 ships tractored, have the 3rd ship at speed 0 turn. Since it is not being managed by the client so requires a person to keep records of when it would or could turn.

Now when or if I bring this up in such a game. I am simply looking for conformation that the speed is still there and being generated but being shown as a pseudo speed of 0. So it will probably be argued that a speed 0 ship does not have turn ability.

Anyway, just considering reactions to turning the speed 0 ship.

Now...the reason of the drone question is because while as you said the rule "seems" to say that you can load a SP from the racks. And then it says you can load the SP from reloads at WS. Some people, are saying that they have always played that with a single rack ship, they could pull drones from the rack. Other people are saying you have to us COs to buy extra drones to make a full SP.

So naturally...I come here to ask for an official ruling stating that yes you can. Or no you cannot. That is why this room exists lol. To get rules defined officially if there is a disagreement.

Your opinion is the same as mine. But our opinion is not an official ruling. So I am asking to stop any disagreement.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - 04:28 pm: Edit

The client isn't the rules.

For people saying they have always played that single rack ship can pull drones off the rack for a pre-scenario SP, just ask them to point to the enabling rule.

By Peter DiMitri (Pdimitri) on Tuesday, April 27, 2021 - 07:20 pm: Edit

SPP: I'd also like to do a follow up to the SP question, also involving drone racks.

A type A drone rack has 1xIV and 2xI.
I had always thought that the reloads for that rack also had to be 1xIV and 2xI. However, I am being told that the reloads could be 4xI for instance. I know that the reloads could be less expensive, but I thought that the actual frames had to be the same.

Any clarification would be appreciated.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - 02:50 pm: Edit

Rule (FD7.212) is the rule covering this. The rule explains that if you are loading a scatter-pack after the scenario begins, you can draw drones from the drone rack if you make the choice: "Drones loaded onto an SP at the start of a scenario under WS-II or WS-III are drawn from the ship’s reload stockpile (FD2.44) and do not cost any BPV since they were paid for under (FD2.45)." You make a not to launch any drones from the drone rack while you are unloading it. THAT is during scenario.

At the start of a scenario, at WS-II or WS-III, any drones loaded into a scatter-pack must (MUST) come from reload storage. If the ship in question wants to load drones onto more than one scatter-pack (two if the ship is at WS-III) and it has only one drone rack, it would normally have only four (four) drones in reload storage and could only use those four drones for scatter-packs. There are three (four) exceptions to this exceptions to this: 1) the ship has a type-B drone rack. 2) the ship has a drone armed MRS shuttle and chooses to load a scatter-pack (or packs) with its reloads instead of its MRS shuttle, 3) The ship has multiple drone armed fighters and chooses to use their reload drones for the scatter-packs, and 4) the player bought some extra, drones which are also part of Storage.

Note that a ship with two shuttles and one type-A drone rack with no extra drones could start the scenario with two scatter-packs prepared (WS-III), but the two shuttles would only have four (4) drones between them (1 each, or two in one and one in the other, or two and two, or three and one). This might be done to try to trick an opponent. There are lots of variations under this game including shuttle numbers and extra drones, and you may as well destroy all of your opponent's shuttles; better safe than srotty

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Peter DiMitri:

Reload drones as you ask seemed to be covered by this rule, if not, ask again: "(FD2.452) The reload drones are presumed to be of the same cost (or lower) as the drones in the rack (on a drone by drone basis), but might be of a different type. Thus, a MW drone might be in the rack while an ECM drone was in the reload storage."

Carles Carroll:

Your question is answered near the end of (G7.373), to wish: "Each ship calculates its pseudo-speed for its own turns and facing changes based on its own generated movement power and the total movement cost, even though only two ships can affect the movement of several ships linked by tractors." In short, you have to calculate the movement speed (the combined movement speed of the two ships that are in fact moving) to determine when the third ship has moved enough to turn. It is not at "Speed Zero." unless its generated speed is at Speed Zero, which is most cases means it can TAC, but will have a maximum acceleration from the combination of 10 for 32 consecutive impulses, and perhaps less if it used emergency deceleration before then.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - 03:32 pm: Edit

Thanks Steve Petrick As always I appreciate you taking the time to give the official answer.

Chuck

By Peter DiMitri (Pdimitri) on Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - 03:35 pm: Edit

Hi SPP:

Thank you for your answers. But for the drones, I do understand that FD2.452 allows a different drone to be in reload, but in the example you gave, they are both one space drones.

My question was can a Type IV in the rack have its reload as 2 Type I drones?

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - 06:30 pm: Edit

Peter DiMitir:

The drones in reload storage have to be cheaper or the same as the drone loaded and paid for. Type-IV drones are nominally cheaper. For example, a two space type-IVF drone had the same cost to upgrade it to Speed-20 or Speed 32 as a type-I drone, but since the cost is paid for one drone, a two space drone costs less than two single space drones. You do have to watch the costs as it is possible reload drones could be figured in error as being cheaper, but if they are, they cannot be placed in reload storage, only more expensive drones (and more expensive might be just a 1/2 point of BPV). But you also need to pay attention to "Special Drones," the reloads cannot have more than than is allowed.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - 06:46 pm: Edit

Pete, the key is "(FD2.452) The reload drones are presumed to be of the same cost (or lower) as the drones in the rack (on a drone by drone basis), but might be of a different type."

If the cost of the two type-Is are the same (or cheaper) then the cost of the type-IV, then yes, otherwise no ... (watch the speed module cost) ...

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - 07:44 pm: Edit

It seems odd that for a General Availability improved speed, a ship cannot have two type-I and a type-IV in a single 4-space rack and four type-I in reload. Especially since that is a legal selection for slow speed drones!

By Peter DiMitri (Pdimitri) on Wednesday, April 28, 2021 - 09:55 pm: Edit

SPP:

Awesome. Thank you for your answer. It makes perfect sense to me now.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Sunday, May 02, 2021 - 09:31 pm: Edit

Ok....new questions.

In a game we are having this came up. Hydran Ranger with 9 fighters out. None are EW fighters. Decides in impulse 2 of turn 3 to make a Het. Earlier he had done a Het so had no bonus. Failed roll. (6)

Now, the rules state you cannot fire and a number of other restrictions. But nowhere in the rules on Het nor in the Lending section of scouts, does it seem to address the idea of lending to other units after and during the breakdown period. The ship is restricted to when it can fire or launch weapons to after 8 Impulses when a Het Fails.

So here is the question. Can a carrier...after it breaks down, start or even continue lending to its fighters during the breakdown period? The obvious answer would be if it cannot target and fire weapons, or at least fire weapons, that would seem to mean it should not do anything of this type. But now we get to the rest of the idea. It was not lending ECM. But instead was lending ECCM to the fighters so they could overcome 1 point of a 2 shift at a range of 4-8 from my ship which had dropped a shield toward the fighters because the phaser 3s needing a 1 or a 2 with a +2 shift could not possibly hit me I had 6 ECM and the fighters had 2/2. So bumping them 1 brought it down to 3 ECM which is a 1 shift.

So...can a broken down carrier like ship lend ECCM or even ECM during the breakdown period? Or a Scout for that matter.

By Charles H Carroll (Carroll) on Sunday, May 02, 2021 - 09:45 pm: Edit

Second question regarding tractor beams. Ship with a +1 ECM shift gets a tractor attempt against it. And a 6 is rolled for lock on. So the tractor failed. Now it was agreed by the group, that this does not mean other attempts cannot be made by the same ship in future impulses up to and including using multiple tractors from a single ship as a way to bypass the potential lock on failure.

So...since the ship did not ever get a tractor on the ship. It never dropped a tractor voluntarily or involuntarily. Since without a lock on it could not attach a tractor. But using other tractors it should be able to continue trying. Obviously this would mean paying tractor energy for each attempt whether it failed or not.

So...can additional attempts be made by the same ship since a tractor was never attached and or dropped. Then...how many tractors, assuming you power them all, can be used to try and tractor a ship? It does not appear to say other than a reference to placing T bombs which says you could use all transporters to try and place T bombs in a hex.

Anyway, while we went with multiple tractors, the first of the second set tractored the ship. The second did also and the third failed. The ship had 4 tractors and paid for them all.

So...what is the reality. Could a ship have a tractor attempt made against it, the attempt failed to get lock on and them make further attempts in the next impulses. Or does the tractor rule dealing with an actual tractor being attached and no further attempt by that ship for 8 impulses apply? Since no tractor ever was attached it would seem more attempts could be made until the ECM was overcome.

G7.0 is the assorted tractor rules.
C6.5 deals with Hets. And G24.0 for Scouts/carriers lending

Weird situations leading to weird questions lol.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Sunday, May 02, 2021 - 10:46 pm: Edit

Oh and one last question.

Freighters...I know that if you have all your weapons destroyed the rule says you are crippled.

But a small freighter has one phaser 3. And a large has a phaser 2 and a phaser 3. So almost any time you take any internals you will lose your weapons.

It seems rather silly to have a ship that is almost all cargo and does not ever really fight, to be considered crippled because a civilian ship has lost its only weapon.

Is there any rule that says non combat ships should ignore the crippled status because of weapon loss? Playing a number of convoy scenarios and it seems strange when I think about it. How losing such a useless system on a ship with everything else working would be deemed crippled and no longer need life support lol.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, May 03, 2021 - 04:45 pm: Edit

By Charles Carroll asked on Sunday, May 02, 2021: In a game we are having this came up. Hydran Ranger with 9 fighters out. None are EW fighters. Decides in impulse 2 of turn 3 to make a Het. Earlier he had done a Het so had no bonus. Failed roll. (6)

Now, the rules state you cannot fire and a number of other restrictions. But nowhere in the rules on Het nor in the Lending section of scouts, does it seem to address the idea of lending to other units after and during the breakdown period. The ship is restricted to when it can fire or launch weapons to after 8 Impulses when a Het Fails.

So here is the question. Can a carrier...after it breaks down, start or even continue lending to its fighters during the breakdown period? The obvious answer would be if it cannot target and fire weapons, or at least fire weapons, that would seem to mean it should not do anything of this type. But now we get to the rest of the idea. It was not lending ECM. But instead was lending ECCM to the fighters so they could overcome 1 point of a 2 shift at a range of 4-8 from my ship which had dropped a shield toward the fighters because the phaser 3s needing a 1 or a 2 with a +2 shift could not possibly hit me I had 6 ECM and the fighters had 2/2. So bumping them 1 brought it down to 3 ECM which is a 1 shift.

So...can a broken down carrier like ship lend ECCM or even ECM during the breakdown period? Or a Scout for that matter.

ANSWER: A ship which suffers breakdown is not restricted in loaning its fighters EW unless it tumbles as a result, in such case it is considered to be using a form of EM and (C10.522) is in force. If it does not tumble, there is no rule disallowing the continuing of EW lending ghould a scout suffer breakdown, or a carrier. Note also that nothing requires the ship to release any seeking weapons it is guiding when it breaks down,, only if it tumbles.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, May 03, 2021 - 05:12 pm: Edit

Tractor question:

Only one (1) tractor beam can attempt a tractor link from one unit to one other units/object in a given impulse. You may have 10 tractors have a powered them all, but only one of the tractors can attempt a link on a given impulse, otherwise all fail (each interferes with the others). If you make the link, then (G7.322) would apply.

NOTE that you do not have to power the tractors individually. You could allocate six point to tractors and use all six points for one tractor beam (perhaps to overcome resistance), or use one point for each of six separate tractors (assuming again that you had more than one tractor, six in this case). You can decide how to spend power allocated for tractors at the time of use (it might all become negative tractor If you need to resist a tractor link yourself). But once a point is allocated for a tractor link, it is spent and cannot her recalled, points spent for negative tractor remain active for the remainder of the turn unless you decide to drop them.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, May 03, 2021 - 05:15 pm: Edit

QUESTION RE FREIGHTERS: Whether you consider it silly or. not, it is the rule, has been the rule for more than 40 years. You might consider that he ships are actually very small, the pod are pretty much interchangeable and the primary volume of the ships.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Tuesday, May 04, 2021 - 01:20 am: Edit

Thanks Steve Petrick Appreciate the answers.

Yeah it did not say it could not on the lending issue. But there is a reference to the idea that if the ship does not have lock on to a target it cannot lend ECCM. Now...obviously it did not lose lockon if it can continue to control Seekers. But then why can the ship not fire? Anyway...it was not an issue so I took the damage. No problem.

The Tractor answer is as expected. Just was not sure.

As for the silly? Idea of oh look something that is normally a myth...and many have never actually even seen work on a freighter, stopped working. And now the ship is so damaged...we even lost life support. Well 40 years or not. For Civilian Ships...I am perfectly happy with saying that...is kind of silly. But...I am and will still play that way. I was hoping maybe there was a rule that I had not found that excluded non combat ships from this rule.

Anyway...as always Sir. I thank you for your detailed and wonderful responses.