You are getting into “why” territory there. Which for weapons is likely something like “don’t want to risk a misfire with weapons in the immediate wake of a breakdown” or “target solutions for weapons are fuzzed enough by the breakdown they need to be reestablished.”

For the freighter, well, the rule isn’t “the ship loses life support” but (B3.1) clause 7 “can use emergency life support.” And when you are a random freighter captain and things are shooting at you and have taken out whatever slight capacity you have to defend yourself, let alone fight back, well, that’s definitely an emergency to you! And in a larger game design sense - it’s a one size fits all rule that designed to address most of what the game focuses on: warships. So it may produce some odd cases, but then the question becomes: is it worth creating sets of exceptions that then require evaluating piles of existing ships and all new ones to avoid giving a ship that exists to be a target an extra half-point or point of power a little sooner than “feels” right.

By Kenneth Humpherys (Pmthecat) on Tuesday, May 04, 2021 - 11:40 am: Edit

Charles,
Consider freighter crippling from an economic standpoint. Ph-3's are an expensive but needed part of your ship. Looking at repair costs alone, a Ph-3 is the second most expensive system on the ship. If a small freighter looses that, an insurance company will likely declare it "totaled" much like a car that had only it's air bags deploy is often "totaled."
Now if you get hit hard enough to suffer any internal damage, it is an emergency. If you get shot at in your personal car, you would feel likewise.
The rules give an easy way for a freighter to gain some of the "advantages" of being crippled by using allowing this. But also note that this use also gives the attacker something - Victory Points equal to 50% of the freighter's Economic BPV.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, May 04, 2021 - 12:57 pm: Edit

Charles Carroll:

I suspect that the lock ons remain because SVC did not want a seeking weapon empire to be totally fouled up by a breakdown, unless it tumbled (and that at least it gets four free points of ECM as it cartwheels across the star field). You cannot launch any new seeking weapons, because your weapon crews are picking themselves up (at least the ones that were not killed as a result of the breakdown). Same thing with direct fire weapons.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Tuesday, May 04, 2021 - 06:22 pm: Edit

Personally, I always thought the whole "life support cost" thing was kind of a kludge.

In combat EVERY Captain would put the ship on mmergency life support. Heck it would be easier to set up BEFORE you got some holes shot in you.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, May 04, 2021 - 06:48 pm: Edit

Except that as has been established in the background, emergency life support has deleterious effects on the ongoing spaceworthiness of the vessel past the end and f the scenario: loss of hydroponics, temperature/pressure sensitive stores, the entire crew’s personal effects, etc - to the point that the ship will need to put in for resupply and non-SFB level repair and maintenance in a relatively short time.

A previous Why/Background question in CL touched on this and specifically “why keep the rule”, to which the answer was it helps provide a ship in trouble an extra bit of power.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Wednesday, May 05, 2021 - 02:17 am: Edit

SFB is a great game.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Wednesday, May 05, 2021 - 05:02 pm: Edit

Thanks to everyone for taking the time to respond.

Yeah...There are obvious pros and cons for the Freighters. And As mentioned, really according to many fiction books. All ships in Combat go on Emergency Life Support and even get into space suits in case of hull breaches.

So there is certainly reasons for it. Amd as Alex mentioned, there are issues that Emergency Life Support causes over time.

Anyway nice replies and all are appreciated.

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Wednesday, May 05, 2021 - 05:08 pm: Edit

And now for a new question of the day.

As a Gorn Player and having rarely flown them. I built a Gorn Battle Tug with the HB Pod. Seems simple enough. But looking at the SSD And having someone also mention it. It appears the Arcs are wrong on two of the Rear pod Gs. If the arc was LP RP on them. Then it would be LF Left and RF Right.
But the arcs are RPR and LPR Which should make them Left Rear Left and Right Rear Right?

Which goes against what the SSD says? Is this a well known SSD error on the Advanced Missions SSDs? As mentioned I know little about Gorns.

Thanks

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, May 05, 2021 - 05:30 pm: Edit

Charles Carroll:

The ship description is correct. The Gorns could not put swivels able to fire forward because the tug is in the way. So they installed the swivels backwards. See the Gorn Master Starship Book which describes the refit a bit more: "Refits: Beginning in Y175 the plus refit upgraded the plasma-G torpedoes to plasma-S torpedoes and installed swivel mounts, converting LF+L to LPR, RF+R to RPR, and RA to AP; this refit was universal by Y176." There point is that it was impossible to fit the Swivels so that the LF+L torpedo would be able to fire across the front of the pod because the front of the pod was afixed to the rear of the tug. So, yes, if you CENTER-LINED the target you could launch both the LF and RF torpedoes at it simultaneously, but if the target was not center-lined you could not launch both torpedoes on the same impulse at it.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Wednesday, May 05, 2021 - 05:40 pm: Edit

And note that even on the centerline launch, the LPR/RPR swivels means the torps are launched facing shields 6 and 2 respectively.

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Wednesday, May 05, 2021 - 05:50 pm: Edit

ELS for 15 minutes wouldn't kill hydroponics. It's not like you are a Battle Stations for hours and hours...

So yeah. Crippled in combat with lots of holes in the ship, lots of stuff goes bye bye. ELS of an undamaged ship ofr an hour should result in nothing more than the AC being off. etc...

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Wednesday, May 05, 2021 - 06:13 pm: Edit

Mike, that's something you're gonna have to take up with SVC

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Wednesday, May 05, 2021 - 06:57 pm: Edit

Ok guys....I am trying to be sure I am right in my feelings on this.

So LPR and RPR...I am of the opinion that there is no longer an RF LF targeting? Or is LPR and RPR including the RF LF so I could technically launch Centerline Front?

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Wednesday, May 05, 2021 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Charles, pulling out the SSDs and looking at them you are right: the LPR/RPR swivel firing diagrams show the 180 degree tracking arcs cutting through the shield 1/6 and 1/2 hex spines respectively - I was going by SPP's comments. This leaves it unable to target a unit inside the shield 1 hex spines.

Also, the text on the SSDs for the Heavy Battle Pod and in the MSSB uses the pre-swivel LF+L and RF+R arcs, but the non-swivel Light Battle Pod Early (R6.41A) SSD and MSSB entry has L+LR and R+RR arcs [replaced with LPR and RPR when upgraded with swivels - historically the Gorn didn't build any P-LB until the swivel-S was in service with (R6.41A) existing for campaign use].

By Charles Carroll (Nosferatu) on Wednesday, May 05, 2021 - 09:50 pm: Edit

Alex....the Gorn Book and the SSD says LF+L and RF+R....before refit. Then it reverses after refit and goes with the back angle swivel torps.

Now...obviously...doing that could be done even with the original targeting of the Torps facing forward.

Now the issue I have with this, is the comment in the description that says they could not give the Torps LP and RP because of the position of the Pod which seems to say it blocks fire forward. Now admittedly it might be they could not add the 180 arc going across the front into the other side because of blockage. So RF and LF is possible but going any further Left or right is blocked. The only question is why they did not just make like so many torps of the Gorns into LS and RS. But who knows.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, May 06, 2021 - 11:41 am: Edit

Charles Carroll:

Okay, I will bite. What Gorn ship has LS and RS plasma-Gs? Note: SHIP. And I am not including Advanced Technology, so no X-ships.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Thursday, May 06, 2021 - 05:51 pm: Edit

I think you should also see (D2.36).

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Thursday, May 06, 2021 - 06:18 pm: Edit

SPP, taking over to Background Q&A, but I think the quirk that is being confusing here is that the unrefitted P-HB starts with L+LF and R+RF arcs, while the P-LBE has L+LR and R+RR arcs.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Thursday, May 06, 2021 - 10:19 pm: Edit

I couldn't find a ship with a PL-G and LS/RS firing arcs, but here is a list of what I could put together.

Empire Name Unit Type	System Name	Firing Arc
Gorn SDL (YR1.1-R6B)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	360
Gorn SDL (YR1.1-R6B)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	360
Gorn SDI (YR1.1-R6C)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	360
Gorn SDI (YR1.1-R6C)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	360
Gorn EDK (YR1.1-R6D)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	360
Gorn EDK (YR1.1-R6D)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	360
Gorn BSL (YR1.3-R6B)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	360
Gorn BSI (YR1.3-R6C)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	360
Gorn EBS (YR1.3-R6D)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	360
Gorn BS (R1.3-R6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	360
Gorn YDK (YR1.1E-R6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	360
Gorn YDK (YR1.1E-R6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	360
Gorn YDK+ (YR1.1F-R6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	360
Gorn YDK+ (YR1.1F-R6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	360
Gorn YBS (YR1.3-R6E)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	360
Gorn YBS+ (YR1.3-R6F)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	360
Gorn YDD (YR6.7)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	FA
Gorn YDN (YR6.14)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	FA
Gorn YBB (YR6.19)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	FA
Gorn YBB (YR6.19)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	FA
Gorn LMN (R1.83-R6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	FA
Gorn LMN (R1.83-R6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	FA
Gorn LMN (R1.83-R6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	FA
Gorn DD (R6.4)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	FA
Gorn DDL (R6.32)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	FA
Gorn DDG (R6.53)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	FA
Gorn DNE (R6.63)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	FA
Gorn DNE (R6.63)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	FA
Gorn LDD (R6.81)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	FA
Gorn YDD (YR6.7)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	FA
Gorn YDN (YR6.14)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	FA
Gorn YBB (YR6.19)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	FA
Gorn YBB (YR6.19)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	FA
Gorn YGBDGG (YR1.8F6-R6)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	FH or 360 Asteroids
Gorn YGBDGG (YR1.8F6-R6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	FH or 360 Asteroids
Gorn Mon (R1.22-R6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn Mon (R1.22-R6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn Mon (R1.22-R6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn Mon (R1.22-R6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn DDF (R6.4)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn DD (R6.4)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BMZ (R6.9Z5)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BMZ (R6.9Z5)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BDD (R6.17)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BDZ (R6.9Z2)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BDZ (R6.9Z2)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BDL (R6.31)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn DDL (R6.32)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BDE (R6.36)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BDA (R6.36A)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn DE (R6.37)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn DEA (R6.37A)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn DDG (R6.53)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BGZ (R6.9Z8)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BGZ (R6.9Z8)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BDG (R6.54)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BDV (R6.56)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn HBD (R6.58)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn HBD-V (R6.58)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn DDW (R6.91)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BHD (R6.934)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BHD (R6.934)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BBD (R6.938)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn BBD (R6.938)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn GDD (R6.J8)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn DDD (R6.J10)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	FP
Gorn P-LBE (R6.41A)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	L + LR
Gorn YCL (YR6.5)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	LF + L
Gorn YCC (YR6.6)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	LF + L
Gorn WBI (YR6.10)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	LF + L
Gorn WBL (YR6.10A)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	LF + L
Gorn YDN (YR6.14)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	LF + L
Gorn YBB (YR6.19)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	LF + L
Gorn WFL (YR6.23A)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	LF + L
Gorn CA (R6.2)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	LF + L
Gorn CL (R6.3)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	LF + L
Gorn BT (R6.5 + R6.8)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	LF + L
Gorn P-HB (R6.8)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	LF + L
Gorn CC (R6.18)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	LF + L
Gorn DNE (R6.63)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	LF + L
Gorn LCL (R6.79)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	LF + L
Gorn YCL (YR6.5)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	LF + L
Gorn YCC (YR6.6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	LF + L
Gorn WBI (YR6.10)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	LF + L
Gorn YDN (YR6.14)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	LF + L
Gorn YBB (YR6.19)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	LF + L
Gorn DN (R6.11)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	LP
Gorn LDW (R6.A4)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	LP
Gorn P-LBE (R6.41A)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	R + RR
Gorn YBB (YR6.19)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	RA
Gorn BT (R6.5 + R6.8)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RA
Gorn P-HB (R6.8)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RA
Gorn YBB (YR6.19)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RA
Gorn YCL (YR6.5)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	RF + R
Gorn YCC (YR6.6)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	RF + R
Gorn WBI (YR6.10)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	RF + R
Gorn WBL (YR6.10A)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	RF + R
Gorn YDN (YR6.14)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	RF + R
Gorn YBB (YR6.19)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	RF + R
Gorn WFL (YR6.23A)	Pl-G Bolt, Plasma Torpedo - Type G Bolt Only (Early Year)	RF + R
Gorn CA (R6.2)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RF + R
Gorn CL (R6.3)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RF + R
Gorn BT (R6.5 + R6.8)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RF + R
Gorn P-HB (R6.8)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RF + R
Gorn CC (R6.18)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RF + R
Gorn DNE (R6.63)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RF + R
Gorn LCL (R6.79)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RF + R
Gorn YCL (YR6.5)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RF + R
Gorn YCC (YR6.6)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RF + R
Gorn WBI (YR6.10)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RF + R
Gorn YDN (YR6.14)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RF + R
Gorn YBB (YR6.19)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (No Swivel)	RF + R
Gorn DN (R6.11)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	RP
Gorn LDW (R6.A4)	Pl-G, Plasma Torpedo - Type G (Swivel)	RP

By John L Stiff (Tarkin22180) on Friday, May 07, 2021 - 12:07 pm: Edit

Charles, clearly a typo for the Heavy Battle Pod. (It happens.)

It has to be LR+L to go to to LPR and RR+R to go to RPR.


The Gorn Heavy Battle Pod fits with the Gorn Battle Pass Tactic. Approach obliquely and turn off. One potentially can have 3xG torps (3xS torps with refit) to launch at the enemy. And should one want to, one can bolt 3 torps directly down the rear hex row.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, May 07, 2021 - 12:25 pm: Edit

John, I would normally say it looked like a typo, but every source (MSSB, pod SSD, tug with battle pod SSD) all agree, and have for 30+ years.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, May 07, 2021 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Alex Chobot, John L. Stiff:

The Gorn Battle pod has always had those arcs, at least since 1991 (oldest SSD I can access). It cannot fire across the front of the pod because the Tug is in the way, so the LF plasma cannot engage targets in the RF arc, and vice versa. The rear plasma-G/S could not engage targets in the forward arc at all. The LPR/RPR launching arcs made it possible to use all the plasmas to engage a single target, albeit with some maneuvering.

The arcs on the pod are correct.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, May 07, 2021 - 02:07 pm: Edit

The arcs on the Light Battle Pod are also correct and reflect the fact that it only had two torpedoes. It did not have a torpedo covering the rear arc which the heavy battle pod did.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Friday, May 07, 2021 - 02:12 pm: Edit

SPP, I wasn't arguing that either was incorrect, which is why I took it to Background - touching on "what was the thought process of the Gorn naval architects" as you just did

By John M. Williams (Jay) on Friday, May 07, 2021 - 04:45 pm: Edit

FWIW, the Commander's Edition Volume II (1984) shows a Gorn Monitor Pod with three plasma G torpedoes. Per the ship description (arcs don't appear on the SSD): one is fixed LF+L, one RF+R, and one RA. It can be upgraded to the Monitor+, which has three S swivel torpedoes with arcs of RP, LP and RA.