Archive through August 17, 2021
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Star Fleet Battles: General Tactics Discussion:
Romulan Tactics:
Archive through August 17, 2021
So as Steve says above. The Romulans must then fight are give up the raid. The Gorns need to at least keep the Romulans under surveillance.
Some would say then use a closed map?
Why a fight a battle you don't think you can win if you don't have to? In this case I would not have a problem leaving Gorn space. On the other hand if the Gorns were raiding Romulan space I'd call for support and stand and fight. In that case I'd buy as many t-bombs and commando squads I could afford.
In the SFU, the Klingons are the more pragmatic of the two empires: it was a Klingon admiral who suggested you "never fight a battle you do not have to win". The SFU Romulans are the ones who place much higher cultural stock in honour - be it of an individual Romulan, of one's Great House, and/or of the Empire itself. (Not always in the same order, mind you.)
Indeed, the Great House factionalism and obsession with galactic conquest led to the pre-Smarba Romulans almost purposely imploding their own efforts at developing tactical warp drive (with a few Gorn spoiling raids thrown in for good measure), while throwing vast amounts of resources away by launching three foolhardy wars with inferior technology against the warp-powered Gorns.
It was fortunate for them that the only near neighbour with both the means and intent of putting a definitive end to their expansionist ambitions in that era had their own path blocked by the Tholian arrival of Y79.
Reply to Richard Eitzen regarding comments in the "Special Heavy Carriers" Discussion
Yesterday in the "Special Heavy Carriers" topic I made a comment that in my opinion the Romulans blundered by only building one ROC, and building the Phoenix SCS instead. I stated that I considered the ROC to be much more cost effective. It gave you more "bang for the buck". Richard disagreed, citing the way the fighter and escort rules work in F&E. (To be fair to Richard, I may be misreading him here. He may have meant, not that the Phoenix was clearly the better choice, but that the matter was less clear cut than I had implied.) In any event, it was something of an apples-to-oranges (SFB-to-F&E) discussion but I wanted to respond to Richard's points. My response is here to avoid taking "Special Heavy Carriers" further off-topic.
I want to state first that I do not intend these comments to be a knock at F&E. The rules on fighter replacements and escorts in F&E have to be written to make F&E work as a game, even if they don't quite match the more tactically detailed SFB. But considering the question of the relative merits of the ROC, versus the PHX, in a "real" SFU (those "Air Force tapes" and all that), I do think we need to look at them a little more critically.
Fighter Replacements
Assuming the carrier itself survives, fighters lost in combat are replaced "free". But this can't really be the case. There has to be some cost. I submit that free fighter replacement is actually an abstraction to simulate the role fighters played in the General War. An analogous situation would be the lack of O&M (Operations and Maintenance) costs in F&E. A ship could be part of an empire's starting forces; participate in a dozen battles over the course of the GW; and, if it is never crippled or converted to something else, never cost the owning empire a single EP. That can't be right. There would be crew costs, and fuel, and consumables (drones, shuttle craft, chaff pods for the fighters if the ship is a carrier), and perhaps battle damage that didn't rise to the level of crippling the ship, but that would nevertheless cost something to repair. Over the duration of the GW, these O&M costs could add up to a considerable sum. But that doesn't mean they should be in the game. Increasing every empire's economy and then mandating it pay O&M costs for existing forces, building new ships or repairing or converting old ones with what is left over afterwards might be more realistic. But it would add a lot of bookkeeping and time to a game that already requires a lot of both, for little or no increase in play value. Better to abstract those O&M costs out of the game.
Similarly, I don't believe fighters can really be replaced for free. They are of course comparatively cheaper than warships to replace. But "free" replacement is an abstraction for game purposes. So as regards ROC versus PHX, the question comes down to loss rates and their tactical effectiveness. And here we come to another F&E abstraction; except for Hydran Stinger-Xs and some Federation fighters, all empires have the same fighters. But at the SFB level, a Tholian mixed Spider-II/Spider-III squadron, for example, is far less capable than a Klingon Z-YC squadron. It is also far less expensive. In F&E they are the same, however. And, at least in my SFB experience, drone using fighters have lower loss rates than the fighters of other empires for the simple reason that they have longer ranged weapons. Obviously this depends on the specific tactical situation. Some situations may require the drone-using fighters to close to phaser-3 range, even if it means they take heavier losses. I think, though, that as a general rule the claim is sound, that drone-using fighters suffer lower loss rates. Romulan fighters by comparison have to close in (and suffer corresponding attrition levels) to be effective.
This response is taking longer than I had anticipated and there is something else I need to do. So I'm going to break it into two parts and post my comments on escorts in F&E, as compared to SFB, this evening.
Reply to Richard Eitzen regarding comments in the "Special Heavy Carriers" Discussion - Part 2
Escorts
It takes a lot of damage to DirDam an ROC. But by the time the ROC appears, the Alliance can field some very high COMPOT lines, and has X-ships to maul with. In F&E the PHX is harder to kill than the ROC because of the escorts. But it is not intrinsically harder to kill the PHX in SFB. The escorts can interpose themselves between the carrier and any enemy ships attempting to close with it. But any warship could do that against enemy ships trying to close with the ROC. Due to their weapons and AEGIS, escorts are better than standard warships at engaging small targets such as seeking weapons or fighters. But they can't protect the PHX from direct fire weapons any more than comparably sized warships could protect the ROC. And even against seeking weapons there are other options, such as cloaking out, using T-bombs against drones, or outrunning plasma. They can also field Starhawk flotillas and configure some of them as Starhawk-Ds or Starhawk-Es. Also, the fact that the ROC is superior to the PHX in both generated and reserve power improves its survivability. Finally, I note that the ROC and PHX both appear at approximately the beginning of the X-ship era, which reduces the importance of "attrition units" generally. But I believe that PFs retain at least some viability in this era better than fighters do.
If the Romulans wish to continue fielding fighters in the PF/X-ship era, they can do so through cruiser-based carriers such as the Superhawk. This also gives them access to escorts, which do at least defend against seeking weapons better than standard warships do. But given the state of the Romulan economy and there limited numbers of dreadnoughts, I believe they should configure all dreadnoughts as either ROCs or CNHs. I acknowledge that I am looking at this from an SFB perspective and that someone who looks at it from an F&E perspective might make a different choice regarding the PHX.
Alan Trevor
Fighters in SFB & F&E are a form of minimally crewed consumable ammunition.
A gunboat is a small ship with more crew than an entire standard or heavy fighter squadron.
In F&E two economic points purchase one fighter factor or four PF's.
One F&E fighter factor represents two fighters on a carrier AND ALL THEIR REPLACEMENTS in the supply chain while the carrier exists.
This supply chain is represented in SFB as the 100% replacement of fighters between campaign rounds in some of the campaigns. The CV campaign in Module J does not make this clear as it is four fighters or two gunboats replaced per squadron or flotilla respectively.
Yet please note carriers and Federation escorts have spare fighters as loaded ammo versus PFT's gunboats that do not.
In SFB, unlike gunboats, you can remotely control fighters to maximize their peak seeking weapon launch rate and slightly improve their when crippled level by a hit point.
For example, you can remotely control three Gladiator-FSF megafighters carrying 18 saboted Pl-D and blarf-launch all 18 in a single impulse at multiple targets when they are within 35 hexes of their remotely-controlling carrier or escort.
This is also one of the reasons why late General War Romulan bases facing a lot of Federation drone fighters would do well to cycle several remotely controlled Pl-D Gladiator fighters armed with with Pl-K to swat drone swarms.
We're starting back up our Captain's Game for the local group in Austin. I've decided to try flying the Romulan KR. The year is Y163.
I'm trying to figure out how to fight the Gorn CA. It has the same 2x Plasma G as my ship, is tougher, and has better phasers. While I have a cloak, it is very expensive to activate.
I'm guessing maneuvering is key but could use some advice in dueling the Gorn.
Ballet is key. Use your Klingon firing arcs.
Ignore your cloaking device. 20 is way too much to pay for it and you're better off just going fast. If you're using t-bombs you'll just get flashed and phasers anyway.
Quite frankly, you're outgunned. The Gorn has more power and much better phasers. Good luck!
Another downside to the cloak is that you'll be carronaded to death.
Ballet and then draw him across your NSM
Ginger McMurray:
Carronade becomes available (first developed by the Gorns) in Y165, and this action is in Y163 which is two years before carronades were deployed, so it is not an issue.
Mike Grafton:
First, he has to buy the NSM, KRs do not automatically come with them. Only the right to purchase one (1).
The Gorn has better phasers, is a tougher ship, has more power, more boarding parties, and more shuttles. The KR is outclassed.
The only advantages the KR has are a tighter turn mode and the NSM (if you bought it). The good firing arcs on the Gorn weapons make the poor Gorn turn mode less of a vulnerability.
Ironically, the D6 from whence the KR came might have a slightly better chance in this matchup, using the disruptor saber dance.
On a fixed map the corners are a good place for the Gorn to try box you in and look for an anchor. If you use a floating map, the plasma ballet has a better chance of working.
Good luck.
--Mike
No question the Gorn CA outguns the Romulan KR. But generally speaking this is almost always the case with equal BPV ships because of the cost of the cloak.
You have only 3 advantages:
1 - Better turn mode (this is mitigated somewhat by impressive Gorn firing arcs).
2 - The KR arcs for the plasmas can both launch in the entire forward arc, whereas the Gorn has those horrible LF/L and RF/R launches. That means you can concentrate the firepower of your two plasmas more easily. The only way the Gorn can launch both plasmas at the same time at you is to centerline.
3 - Cloak. I do not agree that you should pretend that this device doesn't exist. Be prepared to use it if necessary. The cloak is more difficult to use if you are using T-Bombs. But if you are using T-bombs, then that should mean that the NSM is available for purchase as well.
The KR cloak is high, but watching 2 Gorn torpedoes lose their tracking while yours are still heading toward their target can be a useful thing. The cloak is a very difficult device to use properly, and it is true that the Kestrels are less suited to it, but don't completely rule out it's use.
IIRC, the unrefitted KR has FA tracking for both plasma torpedoes. Against the split arcs for the Gorn, you can double launch (or one real and one pseudo, or both pseudos, but that's another matter) where he has to split launch except if you're on his front centerline hex row.
Due to his tougher design, I'd advise against trying to joust with him, but in order to fire EITHER of your plasma torpedoes at him, you will need to be facing him.
Still, if you can convince him to chase you, you can have your midgame phaser exchanges hitting him in his 6-1-2 shielding, weakening him (hopefully) for the Endgame while he's running his on your 3-4-5 shields.
If/when you DO go to knife fighting range, you can make the boarding actions work in your favor. While he does have more boarding parties, he only has three transporters for hit-and-run raids where you have five. Expect him to guard his tractors, bridge, and plasma torpedoes, but probably not his transporters or phasers. Such targets can increase your chances. Meanwhile you've got more tractors and transporters, so you shouldn't guard them. Perhaps only guard your plasma torpedoes? If you have too many Boarding Parties assigned to hit-and-run raids and as guards, you could be vulnerable to capture, despite his lack of transporters.
As far as your NSM goes, its biggest benefit, particularly in a Plasma Dance, is in him not knowing where it might be laid. If you pull turns to try and "Lure" him into a particular hex or hex area, he may track that and think you've laid it there and will maneuver to avoid that hex (or region of hexes), which will give you even more of a maneuver advantage.
Again, this is dependent on getting HIM to chase YOU.
(This is something I've never managed to pull off; with my impatience, I end up playing his game. 
)
Hidden mines are an optional rule, though I have noticed some players don't treat it as such.
(M2.6) Secret Placement (option rule)
There was an age in an earlier life time where secret mine placement did exist, but there were other things from the beyond, plasmas only launched at the end of the turn, plotted movement, not to mention many others. I cant remember the last time we really played without secret placement. It was the age of wonder and exploding ships.
>> plasmas only launched at the end of the turn
Wow, I remember that!
--Mike
All right you kids, get off my lawn.
I had my battle with my KR against the Gorn CA (Y164). The TLDR is that the Gorn kicked my tail. But I did make a lot of errors along the way.
Turn 1: I plotted speed 21, finished arming my plasma Gs and headed for the center of the board. My opponent started at speed 16, but then changed to speed 31 on impulse 16. As our closing speed was now crazy, I launched both Plas-G (real) and turned off. The Gorn managed to arrange getting hit by the plasma on impulse 1 of turn 2.
Turn 2: The gorn phasered down the plasma and, with planned reinforcement, took 10 damage to the #1 shield. It then pursued me into a corner. I realized that I was going to get trapped no matter what - so I decided to charge the Gorn in order to force its odd plasma launching restrictions to put a different plasma on each shield.
This plan actually worked, I took one plasma on the #1 shield (PPT) and one on the #6 shield (real). But the Gorn's Ph-1 (with a -1 shift) still did some serious damage. I lost my #2 shield and took 6 internals (phaser, phaser, phaser, L Warp, R Warp, F Hull). Ouch!
Turn 3: I continued arming plasma and decided that I needed to get some internals on the Gorn soon or things would be over. So I plotted an HET (both #2 and #6 shields were down) and my best speed and charged with the intention of exposing my fresh #1 shield and throwing 2 fast-F torps vs. his single G-torp. The Gorn plotted very high speed (28 I think) and my F's hit on their 6th impulse. The Gorn used phasers and reinforcement to end up with only 21 damage to the #5 shield - failing to score internals. In return, the Gorn launched an enveloper that did more internals (all phasers gone but 2 waist phasers) and I was looking at the prospect of a chain of envelopers stripping my ship of all its weapons.
So I headed for the edge of the map and called it a day. 
Conclusion:
The Gorn CA has a fantastic power curve, great phasers, and can fight at very high speed. It has the same heavy weapons (though with strange lauching arcs) more and better phasers. More power. More Shuttles. More internals. Etc.
I think that, unless I successfully utilize the cloak on the KR, I am fighting with only 80% of a ship. After all, a huge portion of the BPV for the KR is sunk into that cloaking device.
Despite all the advice I've gotten that is essentially "pretend you don't have a cloak" I don't see how I can successfully fight a ship that has more of everything if I don't use all of my ship.
Future plans might be to use envelopers and the cloak to try and set up for a final battle pass.
As usual, I always learn something when I lose. So the KR has been a fantastic learning tool.
How did the Gorn get a -1 shift for the phasers?
Incidentally, I do agree with those who previously posted that the Gorn is advantaged in this fight. Since a Romulan "Kestrel" series ship can purchase a Nuclear Space Mine, you could try to lure him across it, as Mike Grafton suggested in his 11:32 AM post on 8 July. But that's generally only viable if you are using hidden mine placement, and even then it's tough to make it work against a careful Gorn.
@Alan Trevor: I probably phrased that wrong. I had more ECM than the Gorn had ECCM. So he was firing into a 1-shift.
I'm using the Captain's Game to bring in new players to SFB. So we're keeping things simple and not using commander's options (or hidden mine placcement).
That's how I learned. We brought in new rules and races slowly. My friend and I lost many, many games while we learned tactics and rules. Many of those we were actually ganging up on our teacher. But it made us fairly decent players.
It can be rough being a teacher. Sometimes the people you are teaching are more inclined to believe you are more interested in winning than teaching. An example is that in a free for all when I pointed out that we (all of us) needed to gang up and kill a ship first before we went after each other, they did not believe me. And so in the aftermath (I just did not have enough power to kill or cripple the opponent myself, although I tried) he was just sailing around and finishing off all the others (me included). I had warned them, but they would not listen.