Charles:

My 0.02 quatloos worth here. I believe it is because of a couple of factors, the latter is FAR more significant than the former.

A: This is *already* an AU (Alternate Universe) derived from TOS Trek.

B: When playing outside your swim lane in the pool (i.e. outside your core license from Paramount/CBS), you need to be **VERY** careful not to stick your toe where it will get bitten off and you bleed out in the pool. There's piranhas, sharks and alligators in the other lanes. You don't want to give them **ANY** reason to look at your lane, let alone bite.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Sunday, September 05, 2021 - 11:34 pm: Edit

Thanks Jessica and Shawn, I'm pushing for yellow on dark blue in our F&E campaign.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Monday, September 06, 2021 - 10:08 am: Edit

Mike,

Per Module E3 they were TBD.

The playtest pack shows most of the ships are yellow. Jeremy's website showed the miniatures painted yellow.

By Mike Dowd (Mike_Dowd) on Monday, September 06, 2021 - 01:46 pm: Edit

We wound up going yellow on a (Fed) blue background.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 06, 2021 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Charles,

I am going to give two reasons. IMO, YMMV, etc.

1) Alternative Universes are like opinions. Everyone has one and no one cares about anyone else's. Simply put, we all have our favorite alternative, but it probably just flat out doesn't appeal to anyone else. (And, yes, I fully understand that this also applies to mine.) As a result, there just isn't any real sales potential out there for them.

BTW, we have a perfect litmus test for this: Module R4J. This is the most often requested alternative: Romulans get warp early. It even has two main versions: one "low impact" and one "high impact". It covers a lot of bases for an alternative a lot of people have asked for. It also avoids the problem covered by my next point. If this module can't sell well, then *no* AU has a chance and likely will never be done.

To be reductive, lots of people (including me!) have an AU they want to make. The question, however, is if there is anyone willing to actually *buy* one. Module R4J will definitely help answer that question.

2) If it isn't the Federation, Klingons, or Romulans, then it has a significantly diminishing audience. To a lesser extent, the Orions, Gorns, and Tholians can be in play. After that, the returns reduce massively. So, if your AU doesn't prominently feature one (or more!) of the big three, you chances of success go *way* down.

This also applies to alternative settings (Omega, LMC, Triangulum, etc.). It is why so few have been formally published. It is also why the Feds/humans are wedged sideways into Omega and Triangulum.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Monday, September 06, 2021 - 07:44 pm: Edit

Mike,

If you look at the playtest pack back cover, I was thinking a forest-green for a background.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 09:42 am: Edit

Ken, I'm the wrong Mike, but ...

You probably can't use yellow ships with a green background, as that is already the Carnivons. Yes, I know you are trying to use a different green, but as the blues in the Star Fleet Marines counts show, you can't rely on "shades of color" to differentiate. So, since "yellow on green" already exists, yellow on forest green probably isn't going to cut it.

Assuming the ships are to be yellow, then backgrounds of green (Carnivons), red (Paravians), and black (Vudar) are not available. Mike's blue, however, is available.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 11:24 am: Edit

There are already a number of Alternate History Products. Not counting "never built" designs.

Module C6 includes General War era ships for the Carnivons and Paravians.

E4 and E3 include material for two "also rans," the Peladine and the Borak.

E5 is a sort of Alternate History, but I do not think it bears discussion.

And, yes, there is R4J, but it is hardly the only alternative universe.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 11:48 am: Edit

We are provided with SSDs for "Conjectural" ships.

This allows any player/group to do almost any alternative universe they wish.

If the floor is opened up to presenting the weirdest/stupidest, I might overload the server.

(I know, I know... If I even try, I'll be banned for life... )

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 12:00 pm: Edit

Much of C3A might be considered an alternate history of sorts.

Really, most of the modules printed from 2011 on (with the exception of R4T and the Nicozian module) have been non-historical in one way or another.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 12:08 pm: Edit

Well, in my defense, I was specifically ignoring all of the E-modules, as they are technically playtest, not "production". They do, however, count in the sense that they help gauge interest in their subjects and the sales of them would indicate the interest in such things.

Module C6 does count, as do SSJ#1 and CL28. Really, C4 counts, too. (While one can argue simulator races are different than alternative histories, the alternative histories in E3 and E4 are explicitly done in simulators.) Obviously the sales of those products didn't preclude the production of R4J, so there is that. But then they still didn't sell well enough to justify expansions. So, it's kinda hard to read those entrails.

That all said, I still get the feeling that R4J has to sell well (whatever that means) to justify other alternative histories that are being asked for.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 12:22 pm: Edit

That is kind of the one drawback to such a long-lived and richly developed game system and setting - SFB is kind of running out of space for "real" ships. Part of the skill of being a agme designer is finding niches that the average player might see - and SFB's tradition of player suggestion (see the recent PF strike tender classes being kicked around) - means that we'll still see new ships, but there is going to be a point of diminishing returns within the currently developed eras.

X2 opens a whole new era of development, and one that can potentially be much richer than the X1 ships that are "on top of, not replacing existing ship tech" - but the catch with X2 is that it has to be more than just X1+ (same play dynamic, just with X2-CAs that can eat BBs) *and* it has to be done right the first time. An imbalanced/unfun/poorly received X2 is going to be hard to recover from.

There's also the fact that SFB and F&E are much more tightly integrated at this point. New ships added to SFB also have to have at least an eye to their potential impact on F&E, even if that impact will be in a future module like Tactical Ops 2: Revenge of the SITS. Using the strike tenders mentioned above: adding those to F&E would likely involve having them as production allowance in addition to PFT production (e.g. one strike tender by any means per turn), the lack of scout sensors means they are cheaper to produce, and with full combat factors on the line makes for higher density.

Overall, I like seeing conjectural/alternate history products because they are fun, and give room to add stuff to the game that don't run into the above issues. Moreover, I think modules like C6 and R4J are the right approach in that they aren't massive, detailed, integrated new timelines with alternate ships for everyone, but self-contained alternates for one or two empires, presenting a bunch of ships and with varied suggestions on how they can used. They are essentially building blocks, and players can use them to craft their own detailed alternate campaigns by picking and choosing.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 12:38 pm: Edit

The example Charles started with, "What if Germany knocked Russia out the war?", is really more the realm of an F&E scenario than SFB.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 01:10 pm: Edit

Mike West:

There was nothing to defend.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 01:14 pm: Edit

I've always thought a disunited Star Fleet would be cool. The idea being that rather than have one star fleet for all of the Federation, the member nations (Earth, Vulcan, Alpha Centauri, Rigel, Andoria, Orion [for a time], and also the junior partners like the Cygnans, Tellarites, Fralli, Skoleans, Arcturans, etc) all maintain their own national fleets, and then struggle with combined operations.
Every once in a while we get a middle years Andorian Dreadnought or some other such ship, and I like it.
I don't think we necessarily would even need a module for something like this. We got the Cygnans and Fralli in Captain's Logs, all the other ships for such an alternate history could be filled out in the same manner.
I like the idea of a version of the Fed with enough fractious disunity that coordinated fleet action would be affected. A fleet short a scout might just request a Vulcan CL for aid. And their would be mismatches, drone warfare works best when there isn't just one ship throwing out drones, so a Terran FF might not be an Andorian CA's natural companion.
The actual international galactic political situation need not change, it would still be the same map with the same borders. It would be as much an alternate universe as the conjectural Fed PF program is an alternate universe.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 01:27 pm: Edit

You guys are forgetting the most obvious counterfactual, alternate history of all, the (absurd) alternate history in which the Seltorians defeated the Tholians and the Tholians are not really the undisputed masters of the Milky Way galaxy, M81, Andromeda, and several other galaxies besides. Strangely, many people play their scenarios in this galaxy and pretend it is the "real" one.

But of course we all know that, really, the Tholians only allow the lesser empires to play with their silly ships due to their benevolent nature. We all know that, really, the Tholians conquered everything they were interested in conquering long ago, due both to their superior technology and the fact that Tholian commanders are smarter, better looking, and more humble.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 03:02 pm: Edit

How about an R Module called “Ships of the Starfleet Multiverse” that includes ships from multiple different alternate timelines? This would make it possible to create a product in which every empire gets something new. A single timeline might have as many as a dozen new ships in the module or as few as one. The timelines need only be detailed enough to explain the context in which a particular ship or set of ships exists.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 03:26 pm: Edit

I doubt anyone would buy it.

By Alex Chobot (Alendrel) on Tuesday, September 07, 2021 - 03:56 pm: Edit

Douglas - The issue with that approach is that it dilutes the offerings such that you don't have so much "Here's an alternate take on an empire" as "Here's a grab-bag of conjectural ships" where you don't get enough to use any given empire differently.

For example - around CL18 or CL19 a series of hybrid Federation ships was published - basically What If... the Federation had gone with a Hydran doctrine. As a selection of 4-6 SSDs in a Captain's Log that's cool, but modules generally are seen as having to be more "meaty" than a CL. A Multiverse module that has just the ships from that CL - which were just some basic hulls (DN, CA, NCL, DD, maybe one or two others IIRC) doesn't really give you enough to play hybridized Feds in a campaign, whereas a module of 50+ SSDs covering not just the standard warships but enough necessary variants and such, with some in-depth background and timeline options, would be a more useful package.

By Charles Gray (Cgray45) on Wednesday, September 08, 2021 - 09:20 pm: Edit

And that swings back around to the issue of "will it sell" because a 50+ SSD book requires a lot of time to be put into it, and not only reqauires that the various Fed players like it, but that their opponents agree to it.

Which might be another issue--it's not enough that one person enjoy an AU, but that his friends who game with him are willing to dedicate an evening to it as well.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Thursday, September 09, 2021 - 10:39 am: Edit

Douglas Saldana:

Isn't this sort of what Stellar Shadow Journals are?

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, September 09, 2021 - 11:41 am: Edit

I, personally, would love to read/hear about the alternate timelines many of you have cooked up and to post/talk about some I've done.

BUT, as I've posted before, I am NOT neurotypical and, as such, can NOT be taken as a gage for what might sell.

(In fact, it's quite possible my interest might be an indicator of a major negative... )

Might I respectfully suggest that, instead of pushing the idea as a prospective module now, we instead enjoy sharing our ideas here on the Boards?

(... Aaaand who knows; perhaps our mutual discussions can inspire something wonderful... )

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Thursday, September 09, 2021 - 11:56 am: Edit

Shawn Gordon:

Stellar Shadows was more of a hodgepodge I think (fiction, mad science, "joke" ships and weapons, playtest stuff).

I was thinking something organized more strictly like an R Module with any alternate background being incorporated into the individual empire sections or even specific ship descriptions.

From a marketing perspective I think the term "Multiverse" is more familiar and intelligible than the term "Stellar Shadows". It also emphasizes that these are not simply "ships that never were" but ships that actually existed in an alternate timeline.

We might even posit that the "Prime" SFB Universe had fleeting encounters with alternate realities which is how we know they exist (and why the data is less than complete).

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Thursday, September 09, 2021 - 12:33 pm: Edit

Jeff Anderson:

Alternate timelines I think are cool:

Paravian and Carnivon survival in Alpha (which is covered in C6)

The also-rans surviving in Alpha (Borak, Peladine, and an empire I've seen SVC mention called the Garcarians)

Romulans with early warp (which is now covered with R4J)

Disunited Star Fleet (which we get the occasional conjectural ship for)

Klingon Eastern Marches, or in other words, a Klingon-conquered Romulan Star Empire for the timelines where the Tholians do not successfully establish the Holdfast (already supported by a Captain's Log)

A Klingon Hegemony where rather than a united Klingon Empire, the Klingons are the hegemonic overlords of a Federation-like alliance of all of their subject species, meaning Dunkar, Zoolie, Hilidarian, Vudar (early years, middle years, etc) ships. Slirdarians might remain simply the ground forces, and Cromarg might not be suitable for ships of their own. Vergarians maybe have ships if they didn't get turbo-nuked in this timeline?

A permanently established Seltorian Tribunal.

A disunited Interstellar Concordium (exactly like the disunited Starfleet, only we get middle years and beyond plasma drones and plasma vortices)

The Extra-Galactics if they arrived in the wrong Octant. So Omega/LMC Tholians, Alpha/LMC Bolosco, and Alpha/LMC Zosmans.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Thursday, September 09, 2021 - 04:26 pm: Edit

Taking one piece of my "no-drone Feds" proposal (which is its own alternative history idea), how about one of these two alternatives:

No Attrition Units
No one makes/has/can make warp-powered ships smaller than SC4. Pick your favorite techno-babble reason, but no fighters or gunboats. Shuttles exist, but they can't carry ship-relevant weapons.

Hydrans would suffer the biggest change and their Stingers effectively become very large weird unmanned seeking weapons. Maybe guided; maybe self-seeking. Whatever works. No one else uses anything similar.

All Direct-Fire
For some reason warp engines can't be scaled down past a certain point at all. Again, come up with your own favorite techno-babble reason. They can be made small enough to make SC4 ships viable, but nothing smaller. So, no drones, fighters, gunboats, or anything equivalent. Plasma could exist (unless it uses warp). Shuttles exist, but they are not armed with ship weapons and are sublight.

In either situation small ground bases are cool (no warp engines), so some SC5 units exist. But no warp powered units SC5 or smaller.