So far we have reports of completion of three of eight first round games. That is pretty good, but I cannot help but say keep up the base. As two of the first round games led to the opposing players who survived having to face off, if they wand to get. ahead start, they can, they do not have to wait.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Monday, November 15, 2021 - 04:24 pm: Edit

John and I are in conversations to play around Thanksgiving, but nothing has been solidified yet.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, November 18, 2021 - 11:09 am: Edit

2.1 bakija (GRN) vs CrashandBurn (WAX gHbD) Tuesday, 11/23, 12:00 noon ET.

Maybe this time I won't resign after doing 50 internals and getting tracked at R3.

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Thursday, November 18, 2021 - 07:28 pm: Edit

Good plan, Peter! Good luck to both.

By Paul Franz (Andromedan) on Thursday, November 18, 2021 - 08:10 pm: Edit

1.04 King Eagle vs. Andro (Continuation) - Sunday 7pm EST

By Greg Thrasher (Greg_T) on Thursday, November 18, 2021 - 08:16 pm: Edit

Madman (Orion) vs Greg_T (Gorn) Friday Nov. 19 @ 10:00 am Pacific Standard Time USA, 1:00 pm Eastern Standard.

By Joshua Ivan Driscol (Gfb) on Friday, November 19, 2021 - 10:40 am: Edit

Droid an I will be starting momentarily.

By Joshua Ivan Driscol (Gfb) on Friday, November 19, 2021 - 12:05 pm: Edit

Droid wins a short bloodless victory.

My range 2 photon shot was 6, 6, something something and i couldn't recover.

His direct fire from r2 was much more potent. Scoring 13 internals on 45 direct fire with 13/12 Hellbore damage to follow that up. I had no remaining negative tractor because i burned the battery on reinforcement.

That proved to be my undoing as Droid had many drones left and 2 suicide shuttles.

Droid says to fly the Shark maybe next time I will.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Friday, November 19, 2021 - 02:33 pm: Edit

Josh did fine. It's a bad matchup.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, November 19, 2021 - 02:54 pm: Edit

As I am responsible for the matchups, I cannot concede that it was. People choose their ships, and there is no way to run the event (unless everyone chooses the same ship or something similar) to avoid running into something you do not like. The matchup is the matchup. You play the hand you are dealt.

By Joshua Ivan Driscol (Gfb) on Friday, November 19, 2021 - 03:06 pm: Edit

I took the Federation knowing I could be given just this kind of match up.

Ill try a different ship next sapphire tournament maybe the WYN Shark.

Good luck to Droid in future match ups. I needed better dice not necessarily a better ship. I had a good time and am free to pursue other games.

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Friday, November 19, 2021 - 04:08 pm: Edit

Kingzilla Hyd over Devil Kli

Turn one - Hyd loads 2 SS starts 1 ww for SP in emergency for t2 and std Hells & 4 fusions and goes speed 16 with SC to 20 on imp 28. Klingon start turn 1 with SP & 1 SS with 4 std dis armed with 22 in move from 15 to 21 then 26 at the end. We go straight at each other and about imp 8 I launch 2 ftr and no SP has been launched yet. On imp 13 Klingon launches SP and we both keep going straight. At range 10 Klingon turns in to go for my #1. Hyd next move is to turns in to – Hyd does not like the idea of losing his #1. Hyd Slips out on his movements and try to keep distance while the Klingon slips in. At range 7 Klingon fires 1 OL and 1 std dis at each ftr and misses with both std. Next impulse both ftr unload on the Klingon doing 14 damage on #2 and Klingon fire 2 p1 at each ftr. Killing one and other with 9 damage. At this point the Hyd focus is killing the 6 SP drones because the Klingon is no threat. Hyd trac damage Ftr & starts repairs and does a SC for one extra hex so the drones end the turn range 1 on the HYD #1 for center line shot. Klingon turns off. Between imp 32 and & imp 1 drones are dead by 8 p3 shoots. We end turn 1 with Hyd facing D and the Klingon E at about range 8 with the Klingon just out of the HYD FA. No damage to the HYD and the Klingon with 14 damage to its #2. Hyd feels very lucky that Klingon had 6 drones on the board impulse 32 so could not launch 2 drones or would need to drop to SP drones.

Turn 2 - Hyd drops the WW and arms everything but keeps the Hells std with 2.5 in trac and still keeping the SS. Hyd puts 19 into movement starting with speed 20 for 5 impulses so to turn towards Klingon with a speed change to 31 for 8 impulses then drop to 15 then to end with speed 14. Hyd is looking for a over run or range 4 shot knowing the Klingon can’t HET away. Klingon goes speed 26 with a total of 21 in movement going 26 to 21 to 15. Hyd does power tally from turn one and thinks the Klingon has a SS armed. After a few impulses Hyd turns into Klingon and then changes speed to 31 in HOT pursuit while Klingon is trying to wiggle away. Klingon runs for a bit then then slows down to speed 21 on impulse 9 still trying to keep distance on HYD. On impulse 14 the HYD speed changes to 15 while our range is 3. HYD FA facing the Klingons # 3 shield. A few impulse later HYD center lines the Klingon and fires 4 fus and 5 p1 and 2 p3 and one std Hell doing about 11 internals taking out 2 warp and Dis. Next impulse the Klingon HET’s back at the Hyd for range 2 and the HYD fires the other std Hell taking out the ADD and 2 more power and a p2. The next few impulses the HYD tries to coward away but the Klingon gets range 2 shot on the HYD’s # 5 with 2 OL Dis and phaser fire doing 34 damage. Hyd blocks 5 with bats and 5 internals knocking out a fusion and a warp. At this point we are at impulse 18 and there is some drone play but the rest of the turn the HYD is trying to make some distance from the Klingon. The Hyd is trying to get away so it can rearm next turn while the Klingon is trying position itself so its # 2 # 3 shields are away from the HYD. At the end of turn 2 we are about 14 hexes apart with the Klingon facing A and turn mode about ready to turn F to chase me. The Hyd is facing F looking like he wants to turn E and run down the west side of the board. The Hyd #3 shield is facing the Klingon's # 5.

Turn 3 – Hyd thinks about running all turn but it will be almost impossible to avoid the Klingon getting a free shot on the HYD’s down # 5. HYD changes tactics in EA for a full assault on the Klingon with phasers and 2 suicide shuttles and a little bit in trac. If the believe is the HYD is going to run then the Klingon will plan his EA for the chase. HYD EA is start speed 9 for the fast turn then for impulse 5 go speed 14 for the rest of the turn. Cool the fusions and start arming both hells and almost fill the phaser capacitors. Recharged bats and put 2 in trac. Klingon goes speed 15 and turns in for the chase before I get to move. Hyd turns in and starts the process of getting its FA in arc. Impulse 15 we end up 2 hexes apart with the Klingon # 6 shield facing the HYD #2 = straight on the line. Klingon speed changes to 21 so we both move on 16. HYD thinks the Klingon will onload his phaser and use batts to fire a OL dis then run. HYD launches 2 manned shuttles to move with both ships aiming right for the Klingon hoping the Klingon fires on them and the HYD then turns off and runs away. Both ships hold fire and we go to impulse 16. HYD slips in towards the Klingon and the Klingon turns in. We are range ZERO – HYD shield 2 facing Klingon shield one. Klingon is relieved the shuttles are manned. HYD trac Klingon with one point with no resistance. HYD is now speed 7 with the Klingon speed 10. HYD notices that he moves in a few impulses before the Klingon moves. Klingon launches 2 heavy drones and a suicide shuttle. HYD fires and kills the seekers and also shoots 2 p1 at the Klingon leaving a phaser 1 and the offside gat for later. Klingon holds fire. Impulse 17 Klingon tries to break trac but fails – using up his batts. HYD launches 2 suicide shuttles and Klingon does not fire at them. I asked Devil why no fire at the shuttles and he said nothing arc. I said you have 5 p1 & 2 p3 in arc. Impulse 18 and Suttles hit and Devel reveals EA. He armed 3 standard dis. And planned on using bats to charge phasers. It was fun game that Devil had me scared a few times.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Friday, November 19, 2021 - 05:16 pm: Edit

SPP wrote:
>>As I am responsible for the matchups, I cannot concede that it was.>>

Nah. It's a bad match up. Which, well, is just the way of the tournament. The Fed historically has a very hard time with the WAX; the Gorn has a historically hard time with the Orion; The RFH has a historically hard time with the Archeo Tholian. The Orion has a historically hard time against the Fed. There are some matchups that are just inherently hard for one side or the other.

But again, that's just how the tournament works. In the grand scheme, yes, most ships are generally pretty evenly matched in a vacuum. But there certainly are some match ups that are just an uphill fight from the get go. But again, that's just how the tournament goes. Sometimes you get a bad matchup. Bad matchups aren't *impossible*, but if opponents are of roughly equal skill levels, and luck is roughly average, one side will certainly have a leg up.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, November 19, 2021 - 05:47 pm: Edit

We spent a bunch of time years ago trying to identify the supposed "bad match ups" and figure out some handicap to give the low-end ship, but nobody could agree what the handicap might be, and nobody could agree which matches were bad.

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Friday, November 19, 2021 - 07:13 pm: Edit

If there are Bad Matchups, the first thing I would ask is WHY?

The Fed historically has a very hard time with the WAX; - Why is this? Because the match has 1000 losses out of 1500 games? What do the Stats actually reveal (Player Skill, Bad Rolls, Bad Tactics, Excellent Tactics, or something else)? Is there something about the Design of each ship that gives favor to one over the other? Is there something about the Rules that lends favor to one ship over the other?

the Gorn has a historically hard time with the Orion; - Why is this? Because the match has 1000 losses out of 1500 games? What do the Stats actually reveal (Player Skill, Bad Rolls, Bad Tactics, Excellent Tactics, or something else)? Is there something about the Design of each ship that gives favor to one over the other? Is there something about the Rules that lends favor to one ship over the other? Is it the Engine Doubling? The Option Mounts? The Plasmas being a Seeking Weapon that must chase and hit its target? The Speed of the Orion being Too Fast?

The RFH has a historically hard time with the Archeo Tholian. - Why is this? Because the match has 1000 losses out of 1500 games? What do the Stats actually reveal (Player Skill, Bad Rolls, Bad Tactics, Excellent Tactics, or something else)? Is there something about the Design of each ship that gives favor to one over the other? Is there something about the Rules that lends favor to one ship over the other? Is it the Web that has a clear advantage over the Plasmas?

The Orion has a historically hard time against the Fed. - Why is this? Because the match has 1000 losses out of 1500 games? What do the Stats actually reveal (Player Skill, Bad Rolls, Bad Tactics, Excellent Tactics, or something else)? Is there something about the Design of each ship that gives favor to one over the other? Is there something about the Rules that lends favor to one ship over the other? Is it the number of Internals the Orion has, meaning it cannot withstand a full Alpha Strike from the Fed? Or perhaps the Fed is too sturdy and can withstand the Orion's best strike?

Most importantly, the next important question to ask is: Why do these Vulnerabilities/Advantages not affect OTHER Matchups with these same ships? For example: the Fed against other ships. The RFH vs other ships. The Archeo vs other ships. The Orion vs other ships. The WAX vs other ships. The Gorn vs other ships.

Something strange must be happening if the Vulnerabilities/Advantages only happen with one type of ship vs another type of ship. If the problem is Rule Based, it should affect every battle with that ship. If it is a Design issue with the SSD, it should also affect every battle with that ship.

If there are no definite answers to these questions, then it is difficult to believe certain matchups are disadvantaged for one side (or advantaged for the other side). It is almost like a strange, phantom belief in something which is supported by historical statistics, but not by solid, traceable, logical evidence, so...??

My interest in this is from a Design Standpoint. If there is truly something favoring one side over another in specific matchups, I would be very interested to discover what that thing is.

Of course, the Tournament Players who have been playing literally for Decades are the best ones suited to provide the Answers.

This could affect how I design ships and empires in the future, so these are important questions for me personally.

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Friday, November 19, 2021 - 07:46 pm: Edit

The Kingzilla Hyd over Devil Kli was a Great Game!

I love this part: "does a SC for one extra hex so the drones end the turn range 1 on the HYD #1 for center line shot" to counter the incoming drones.

I was confused by this: "Hyd is looking for a over run or range 4 shot knowing the Klingon can’t HET away" - what would prevent the Klingon from HET, assuming he had the power? I can't think of anything to stop him...

The Knife Fight in Turn 3 was awesome! I love the Tractor Beam used to hold the Klingon. But this was very curious (and confusing) for me: "HYD launches 2 suicide shuttles and Klingon does not fire at them. I asked Devil why no fire at the shuttles and he said nothing arc. I said you have 5 p1 & 2 p3 in arc. Impulse 18 and Suttles hit and Devel reveals EA. He armed 3 standard dis. And planned on using bats to charge phasers." - Not charging phasers during EA and planning to draw on your batteries for phaser shots? I've never heard of that. And it looks like the Klingon lost the ability to fire phasers when "Klingon tries to break trac but fails – using up his batts"

Excellent Writeup! Thanks for taking the time to put in all those details.

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Friday, November 19, 2021 - 09:46 pm: Edit

Norman great questions and I was never good at writing well.

HET & range 4 or center line shot question-
The Klingon was running away with the Hydran right behind him. What ever direction the Klingon would HET the Hydran will still have the Klingon in front of him. The Hydran ship is designed to do the most damage at range zero and is more deadly when it has its target center right in front of him so all fusions and gats can fire. The Hydran's weapons cost a lot when all are armed. So when the weapons are fully arm it can run fast for 8-12 impulses then most slow down. So I try for a range zero or one but most times its a little farther away because the other ship knows this and will do anything to avoid it.

Knife fight question.
I assumed the Klingon had charged all or some of his phasers when I launched the sui's shuttles. I launched them thinking the Klingon would fire at them and that would be less phaser fire directed at the Hydran ship. The Klingon did not arm his phasers and thought he would be firing at long distance so he armed 3 standard disrupters. Standard disrupters cant fire at range zero so he was right he had nothing to fire.

By Seth Shimansky (Kingzila) on Friday, November 19, 2021 - 10:08 pm: Edit

2.4 Spartan RFH vs madman ORI (HGH1B/FGFff)

Please post when this game will be played.
This game will be better then watching the Tiger King. You have madman that is a nightmare in the Orion. Spartan who is a very crafty player in a Vulnerabilities/ DIS-Advantage match up.

If this was a cartoon death match the players are.
Spartan as kungfu panda vs madman as Felonious Gru

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Friday, November 19, 2021 - 11:29 pm: Edit

"If there are Bad Matchups, the first thing I would ask is WHY?"

Norman,
player skill is the dominant factor in most games (player that are playing Tournament games regularly are the most prepared).

Games with players of equal skill, one player usually out guesses the other for the win, and some games are won with some luck at the right time.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, November 20, 2021 - 03:18 am: Edit

Norman, when you say 1000 out of 1500 are you citing actual numbers from some database or just picking random numbers as an example?

By Geoffrey Clark (Spartan) on Saturday, November 20, 2021 - 06:26 am: Edit

Kungfu Panda ?!

"Your real strength comes from being the best 'you' you can be. So who are you? What are you good at?"

... well, ok, I can live with that.

By Andy Koch (Droid) on Saturday, November 20, 2021 - 07:11 am: Edit

As Peter said and I verify:

When I said “ bad matchup” it was not meant as a reflection on SPP. I meant the Fed has a difficult time with heavy drone users and It was not a reflection on Josh’s skill. While I am a good player, I consider myself one of the weakest of a set of top notch players who are left playing Tournament. Yet I ran over 3 Feds with the Aux en route to a Sapphire win earlier this year .

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, November 20, 2021 - 08:07 am: Edit

SVC wrote:
>>We spent a bunch of time years ago trying to identify the supposed "bad match ups" and figure out some handicap to give the low-end ship, but nobody could agree what the handicap might be, and nobody could agree which matches were bad.>>

There isn't really anything to be done about it, and no one really worries about it. When you pick a ship for a tournament, you generally know that you have some uphill fights, and that is an inherent risk in all ships. I fly the Gorn a lot. And every single time I do, I think to myself "Man, I hope I avoid running into any Orions or Firehawks...", as they are hard matchups.

There are years and years of collected game results that bear out the idea that some ships are bad matchups for other ships. I mean, very few of them are *incredibly* lopsided (Firehawk vs Fed?), but all ships have some "hard" matchups, and all ships have some "easy" matchups. Which just means you are starting with a leg up, or at a modest defecit. And yeah, if you play better, or get lucky, you certainly can win a bad matchup (there certainly have been Feds that have beaten WAXes in the universe, but probably not that many...).

And again, this is all fine. Any given Tournament Cruiser will have a few tough matchups, a few advantaged matchups, and mostly pretty even matchups. The only time there is a problem with this is when a ship has more disadvantaged matchups than not, and those are the ships that are generally viewed as weak, and in the past, were the ships that got upgraded a little (original Hydran got an extra P1; Lyran got the UIM and phaser 3 turret; Neo Tholian got extra power, etc.)

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Saturday, November 20, 2021 - 08:36 am: Edit

Norman wrote:
>>If there are Bad Matchups, the first thing I would ask is WHY?>>

The game is very complicated. And it is impossible to perfectly balance all factors against all other factors. That being said, the set of tournament ships, in the tournament environment, is pretty close to a balanced game environment. Even with ships having "good matchups" and "bad matchups", the game is a generally fantastically balanced out situation. Which is why people are still playing this tournament 30 some odd years on.

Yes. Some ships have some bad matchups and some easy matchups, which makes playing some games a little harder and a little easier. But across the board, it all mostly evens out.

I play the Gorn a lot. Off the top of my head, I think my hardest matchups are the Orion, the Firehawk, the ISC, and maybe the WAX. Those games are hard from the get go. The Orion is just too fast and has 2 HETs, and has too much power, and generally has 2 hellbores. Have I beaten Orions? Sure. But I probably have, historically speaking, like a .333 record against Orions. One can win a hard match up by playing better (enough to make up for the inherent deficit) or just getting lucky. But when I sit down to play a game against an Orion, I'm all "I got no idea what to do here, this game is going to be completely reactive, or I can try a wacky gambit that is only going to work 25% of the time..."

I think, overall, for the Gorn, the Klingon, Hydran, and Lyran are easy matchups. I certainly have lost to these ships. But I generally feel ok going into the game, and probably have, like, a .667 record against these ships. That being said, the last two Hydrans I have fought killed me, 100% 'cause my opponents have played against me like 50 times each, and knew exactly what I was going to do, and planned accordingly, and I didn't adapt well enough, so they killed me. And against Bill Schoeller's Klingon, I probably have an under .500 record, as he is probably just a better player than I am, making up for the general advantage I think the Gorn has in the matchup.

>>The Fed historically has a very hard time with the WAX; - Why is this?>>

The Fed has a hard time against all drone heavy ships--WAX, ZIN, Shark. The Fed needs phasers to hit its opponent, not shoot down drones. The WAX has numerous drone racks. The WAX has hellbores, which are stupidly advantageous, and on the Orion and WAX, don't fall off the ship on the 3rd internal like on the Hydran. The WAX has a gatling (see: the same issues on the Hydran with gatlings as with the hellbores). The WAX can take 50 internals, and then *still* get to R1, tractor the Fed and kill it with drones and a gatling and a hellbore or two.

>>Because the match has 1000 losses out of 1500 games?>>

I suspect if we looked at the Schirmer stats (which probably still exist somewhere, although I haven't looked them up in a while), the stats would probably bear out similar numbers.

>>the Gorn has a historically hard time with the Orion; - Why is this?>>

I have probably spelled this out a lot recently, so I won't repeat it here. Some folks think this matchup isn't as hard as I do. I don't know what to tell them.

>>What do the Stats actually reveal (Player Skill, Bad Rolls, Bad Tactics, Excellent Tactics, or something else)?>>

The whole point of statistical analysis is that when you collect a large amount of data, the issues of "luck" and "skill" tend to even out, so if a ship wins 1500 games and loses 1000 games (or whatever), it is unlikely to be the result of skill or luck. It is likely to be the result of inherent advantage or inherent weakness in that particular matchup.

>>Is there something about the Design of each ship that gives favor to one over the other?>>

Yes. That is generally the issue in all "hard" or "easy" matchups. Again, the game is very complicated. And it is going to be impossible to make all matchups perfectly even. But then again, if a given ship has 3 or 4 "hard" matchups, and then 3 or 4 "easy" matchups, and then the rest of the field is more or less even? That's just fine.

By Norman Dizon (Ichaborn) on Saturday, November 20, 2021 - 09:19 am: Edit

SVC,

I just randomly made up those numbers for my examples.

I know the Schirmer site exists, have never been there, don't know how the information is categorized, and might accidentally read it wrong if I were to quote directly from it.

So I created the numbers just to illustrate my point. I would find it funny if they actually were close to the real numbers.

Personally, I'm not a big believer in Statistics, although I did study the subject. But Peter's words about Skill and Luck evening out over a long period of time make sense.

Still, my personal opinion is that Stats should be one of many "Guiding Factors", but not the "Final Arbiter."