Alex,

thank you for the direction to the SOP G3 download.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 11:48 am: Edit

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Presumably an SSD for a NTW-era Vulcan ship would have to make similar adjustments, though as noted it would retain the use of phaser-1s and early special sensors.

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By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 12:49 pm: Edit

With respect Mike, a Vulcan with Ph-1s and TW is unbeatable vs NTW ships (without some weird extra factor like cloak and mines). This is because it's faster, and has weapons that outrange the Q-era.

But a Vulcan with TW and no Ph-1s vs a ship with only NTW could be beatable if the Vulcan had to close with the NTW ship to kill it. The NTW ship would need longer range weapons, and would need to be able to win an exchange where the Vulcan didn't close. This is what the Plasma-Rs do for Romulan NTW ships.

And a Vulcan with Ph-1s, but no TW would be beatable by other NTW ships in a variety of other scenarios. The Ph-1s give the Vulcan tons of range, but there could still be weapons the other NTW ships have that make up for this. Atomic missile spam could mean the Vulcan has to waste shots taking care of incoming missiles, the other NTW ship could be faster and do more damage in a close exchange, etc.

Also, we should remember that the only NTW weapons in the game are represented by their post-Q forms. Warp-targetted lasers are what a laser weapon can do to a TW ship. There's no reason a non-warp-targetted version of the laser couldn't be longer range and do more damage. The atomic missiles we have in the W era are the warp-boosted TW versions. Larger missiles could be used if warp-boosting and warp-targetting aren't a factor. There could also be a variety of other weapons like rapid-firing cannons that don't rely on energy, or mine-laying missiles, which would be especially nasty if Newtonian movement was used and stopping/maneuvering was an issue. There's also the fact that in the OG episode with the Romulans, the nuclear space mine was an improvised weapon made from an old style atomic weapon. We could have mega-missiles that detonate and damage whole hexes, or hexes and their neighbours.

There could be a whole arsenal of weapons available to NTW ships that simply do not transfer over to the W-era because they are made irrelevant by faster-than-light tactical movement. Without knowing what these end up being, there isn't a way we can say that the Vulcans would be unbeatable in the Q-era with Ph-1s. Ph-1s and TW together yes, but either element could have successful countermeasures.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 02:22 pm: Edit

I'm with Mike.

A laser is light speed. It's nearly useless against a phaser armed boat.

Because light speed is one 1 hex per TURN. Warp targeting somehow lets a laser hit targets moving at warp speeds at modest range, but sublight with no tactical warp, it's one hex per turn.

At range 8, I can fire phasers, and if you shoot back at the same time, then 8 rounds later I have to deal with your lasers or missiles. And you have no shields, just modest amounts of armor.

I'm not seeing the Vulcan losing this at any reasonable odds. How long does it take to turn on my NTW? If it takes less than 8 turns, then I get shots at range 8 pretty much at will, and you NEVER get any effective return fire.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 02:39 pm: Edit

Douglas, there might be a misunderstanding here.

The old Q-section (was not a module, but sometimes this whole thing gets referred to as module Q in reference to a hypothetical yet unlikely future module Q) dealt only with battles between sublight (or more correctly, non-tactical warp) craft. The old Q rules were meant to provide a rule set for dealing with the First Romulan War, which was fought before either civilisation had tactical warp, and was fought with atomic missiles and lasers. Q (section, modules, whatever) presume a different scale of time than normal SFB. In the original rules ships could use their impulse engines to generate 1-3 movement each per turn with a speed limit of 6 per turn (the Q speed of light).

This discussion presumes Q movement (and time scale), probably a hypothetical new system that nobody has figured out, some like the spirit of the old system and some want Newtonian vectored movement (personally I could go for either as long as it was well done).

Under the Q regime it would not take 8 turns for a laser to hit the Vulcan. Either the Vulcan would use tactical warp (and so it would be a normal SFB battle not using Q rules since one ship is sublight and the other is not), or the Vulcan would use NTW, in which case direct fire is direct fire and the time scale is not 1 hex per turn.

By Douglas Lampert (Dlampert) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 03:14 pm: Edit

Shawn, the problem is that these are NOT module Q ships. They are full up early years ships with full up early years weapons and ranges and a printed YIS of Y1 which means they're early years ships fighting module Q ships.

If you rescale to 6 times as slow a turn so sublight ships can move 6 hexes, then these ships get six turns to your one, because they are the same ships in Y1 as in Y71 and we know how fast they can fire in Y1, and it's six times while sublight moves 6 hexes.

The Vulcan's phasers on those ships are FTL, and that's what the Vulcans have in year 1 if the YIS is correct.

That's Mike's POINT. FTL weapons and sensors against slower than light foes is not a winnable matchup for the slower than light ships.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 05:26 pm: Edit

Module Y1 states:

"(Y0.0) The Early Years module covers the period of Y80 to Y120 and can (with minor caveats) be adapted to cover the period of Y67 to Y135."

It states in its time line of "Early Wars" that the first Federation-Romulan war was fought from Y40 to Y46 which is clearly NOT covered by the rules in the product (this is the period of a the "Q section" rules, which obviously covers earlier and at least to Y67 per above, but note that tactical warp ships begin appearing in Y62 according to the Technology timeline.

The Vulcans had warp-capable ships in this period, but not tactical warp, which is clearly stated in their racial background:

"The Vulcans appeared truly astonished when Early invented Tactical Warp Drives; the Vulcans had never seen a reason for combat at warp speeds."

The Vulcan early destroyer (YR2.12) and early cruiser (YR2.13) were in service in Y1, in developing the "Q" this would have to be taken into account, requiring the Vulcans to maneuver on impulse power in combat until Earth develops tactical war at which point there will be a refit applied to the Vulcan ships. The refit will simply allow them to use Tactical Warp. The Vulcans only have two ship types, and one was only built when they wanted to look at an area and that area had eaten (or otherwise caused the disappearance of) the smaller ship.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 05:42 pm: Edit

With respect Douglas, you're restating my original position back to me.

I'll try to untangle this a bit.

I'm the one who brought up that the Vulcan cruiser and destroyer are unkillable god ships if their currently printed version is the same version as what existed in Y1.

Then there was a back and forth about how intentional and permanent that YIS date of 1 is. I took no side in this. To me the YIS says 1, and so it could mean that this ship in this form was in service in Y1. To me this is the default position. On the other side of the argument from my perspective are the fiction stating that Terrans invented tactical warp in Y62, and the fact that module Q doesn't exist and when Y1 came out the Warbird received a significant revision. There's no reason that a sublight module should be shackled to a Y1 TW ship when ships have been revised in the past to accommodate for a more fleshed out system, especially when the fiction seems to contradict the YIS date. Either way we don't have an answer, and the point is somewhat moot.

Then Mike brought up that the Vulcan ships armed with phasers make them unbeatable. I pointed out that no, I don't think that's true.

My position is that the ships could have tactical warp and still be viable (but not with phasers), or they could have phasers (but not tactical warp), and that a Q game system could be designed around either situation and have the Vulcans be mortal. The only situation in my opinion where the Vulcans cannot be defeated is the one where they have the combination of phasers and tactical warp. In an earlier comment I elaborated on how.

EDIT: thank you for the tactical warp clarification SPP, that definitively puts the issue to bed.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 06:06 pm: Edit

Well I have played WBs vs warp ships. The Plasma R is wonderful. In Y140 I cam buy a WB for 51 BPV or two for the cost of a Gorn un-refitted CA. The H-S is 47 BPV. The + versions are a bit more 52 H+ and WB+ 60 BPV. I like a WB/WB+ and H-S/H+. VS that Gorn CA. I can win that battle.

So taking on a Vulcan with phasers can be done with Plasma... now early with bolt only Plasma YUCK

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 06:37 pm: Edit

EDIT: What I originally wrote doesn't matter. Let me state what is actually pertinent.

SPP: If we just take what has been stated thus far (that the YVC and YVD didn't have warp engines prior to Y62/71), then the G3Y MSC is in error. The YVC and YVD without warp engines are different ships than the ships published in Module Y1. We need to know what the actual YIS date for those ships are. (I assume Y71. It would be good to confirm.)

As an example of what I mean, here are two:
- Look at the WB. If you use the same logic with the WB, its YIS date should be way, way earlier than Y66. (Honestly, it could use the exact same Y1 for what difference it makes.) Yet, that ship is listed with a YIS date of Y66 when it got its warp-targeted lasers and plasma bolts. This is because, refit or not, it is functionally a different ship:
- Look at the two Hydran cruisers in Module Y1. The YCA is a direct refit of the WCA (name change not withstanding), yet each ship has its own YIS.

Simply put, based on what you have just stated, the YIS dates for the YVC and YVD should be whatever year it was that they got warp engines. The year the hull forms appeared is completely irrelevant.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 06:48 pm: Edit

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Then Mike brought up that the Vulcan ships armed with phasers make them unbeatable. I pointed out that no, I don't think that's true.

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Quote:

Well I have played WBs vs warp ships. The Plasma R is wonderful. In Y140 I cam buy a WB for 51 BPV or two for the cost of a Gorn un-refitted CA. The H-S is 47 BPV. The + versions are a bit more 52 H+ and WB+ 60 BPV. I like a WB/WB+ and H-S/H+. VS that Gorn CA. I can win that battle.

So taking on a Vulcan with phasers can be done with Plasma... now early with bolt only Plasma YUCK

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By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Mike West, I don't know what you're talking about when you say things like:

"Nothing except atomic missiles have range past 2, and atomic missiles are extremely slow."

Or

"Since no one is faster than anyone else, the phaser ships can easily control the range."

Or

"warp-targeted lasers having a range of 2. NTW lasers have a range of much less than one. So that means a NTW ship with phasers can drop out of warp at range *1* with no danger of reprisal. I don't need Ph-1s anymore; Ph-3s will do the job just fine."

Because it seems like you're not talking about a Q paradigm. All of this assumes the movement and time regimes of W and later.

Atomic missiles (with warp boosters, ie: the kind that exist in the late Q era) move twice as fast as NTW ships. If a hypothetical module Q used a speed of light of 6 that would mean that atomic missiles would move at speed 12. If a hypothetical module Q used a speed of light of 32, that would mean the atomic missiles move speed 64. That is a very fast missile.

We don't know that no ship is faster than any other ship. That was the case with the old scrapped Q section. That is not necessarily the case for a module Q.

Warp targetted lasers have a range of 2 when firing at a warp ship. There is absolutely no reason to keep that same range or same damage chart for a module Q since the laser isn't being handicapped by a need to be fired at an FTL object.

There could also be a plethora of other weapons and systems that are simply unusable against a tactical warp ship. You could have super-lasers with long range and and high damage that just act as warp-targetted lasers do when constrained by having to fire at an FTL target, but that have a similar profile to a phaser when fired at Q speeds.

Or whatever else your mind can imagine. There are too many variables unaccounted for to say definitively that a phaser armed ship could trounce any given Q-speed ship. Once you cross the barrier from Q combat to W combat a lot of what exists becomes obsolete (which is why tactical warp is such a game changer), and that leaves room for a growth in technology and ship power from Y1-~Y62, and then the rapid drop off with the phase transition that the switch to the W era and tactical warp causes.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 07:19 pm: Edit

The Vulcan background on Pg 28 of Module Y1 does say "The Vulcans already had phaser-1s and Special Sensors when the Federation was formed" but I always assumed that this reference to the Federation (formed Y4) should have been to Star Fleet (formed Y71).

If this was not an error I find it hard to reconcile with the established history. Even if the Vulcans were not warlike as a nation that doesn't mean they would have held back if forced to go to war (which they were presumably obligated to do during the Romulan War) and phasers would have given them an insurmountable advantage.

The only way I could see this working would be if the Vulcans were "conscientious objectors" during the Romulan War who refused to fire their phasers in anger (in which case why arm your ships with phasers at all?).

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 09:16 pm: Edit

To illustrate what I'm talking about with some numbers:

Let's assume that we're not using a Newtonian movement scheme, and instead we're using an inertialess system where each impulse engine box provides 1-3 movement per turn with a speed of light of 32.

The QVC (YVC with the warp engines swapped with 2-box impulse engines, no pre-Y62 transporters, no other changes) has:
8 impulse engines.
4 batteries.
3 Phaser-1s all arranged at odd angles. 1 or 2 will likely be what can be brought to bear on the enemy in a turn.
2 special sensors.
2 Tractor beams (Q era are for towing friendlies only, so kind of useless)
0 armour.
16 shields in every direction

This means the ship can go speed 24 as a maximum, and has 3 very good weapons that each take 1 energy to use. They also have two special sensors, which would be very difficult to find the energy for. It has a commitment of 2 energy for shields and 1 for life support meaning that a realistic combat speed for this ship is going to be maybe 15, and that's not counting any phaser capacitor recharging, or battery refilling.

Let's de-warp-refit the Terran WCA into the QCA and give it the same 2 box impulse engines to replace its warp engines, and drop the transporters.

8 impulse engines.
4 batteries.
6 lasers (formerly phaser-2s), 4 that can be brought to bear in the FA arc.
2 heavy weapons (formerly photon torpedoes, let's say they're now atomic missile racks).
2 Tractor beams (Q era are for towing friendlies only, so kind of useless).
8 armour.
12 shields in every direction except the rear.

This means the ship can go speed 24 as a maximum, and has 6 mediocre weapons, 4 of which take 1 energy to use. The heavy weapons require no energy to use. It has a commitment of 2 energy for shields and 1 for life support. The ship has a maximum speed of 24. Combat speed is tricky, since if I were doing the QCA vs the QVC I'd want to close on the QVC as the QCA, and so I wouldn't fire anything that takes energy until I could reach range 0.

With the assumptions of the 32 light speed limit, this means that the late Q-era warp boosted atomic missiles are moving speed 64. They do 4 damage each, die to 2 damage, and the QCA can let off 8 before having to reload (16 missiles total).

If the QVC shoots a missile with its ph-1, it uses up a phaser (possibly the only phaser in arc that turn), and if it uses a special sensor that's about the same energy usage (and energy is scarce) but it leaves a phaser free. The QCA needs to use no energy to tie up the QVC in this way. I think the QCA can close and do its range 0 pass at least once. The QCA can do a maximum FA damage of 2 per warp targetted laser on average, plus 4 per atomic missile. The one-turn range 0 pass is capable of ~ 16 damage on average, which is only enough to drop the Vulcan's shield. The Vulcan, we'll assume gets 2 ph-1s off in the same exchange for ~13 damage on average, which is enough to pierce the QCA's front shield and hit the armour for 1.

I'd still rather take the Vulcan ship in this exchange because the QVC has what I would consider a marked advantage, but it's not anywhere near as dire as it is being made out to be. The specifics of the Q movement rules will define the system, and the captains of both ships need more options and counter-options, but at least by the Y62 end date when the first tactical warp ships enter service, the Vulcans are in the same league as the Terrans at least, although they might be at the top of the league.

And if I'm wrong in my analysis and the QCA is at a much much worse ship, adding just an APR, or another impulse box, or increasing the weapon strength even a marginal amount, would have a large effect on the balance.

By Jessica Orsini (Jessica_Orsini) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 09:17 pm: Edit

I suspect the Vulcan situation was akin to the Jindarian one: sure, they had TacWarp and phasers earlier than others, but they were decidedly uninteresting in empire-building.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 09:22 pm: Edit

In the "Time Warp" scenario the Kongo's modern weapons (including phaser-1) function at their normal ranges (in hexes) even though the scenario uses the sub-light scale and rules (which means, in effect, weapon ranges are reduced by 95%). This is acknowledged in the scenario rules which state that "Your engineers ... have adjusted all of your weapons so that ... they will function at the stated ranges ... even though a hex in the normal game is equal to 20 hexes in this scenario."

Now why would your engineers do that?

Well, the Kongo is also prohibited from using it's tactical warp engines for movement because they would "damage the time warp".

I would speculate that the Kongo's weapons (and all tactical warp era direct fire weapons) utilize some form of tactical warp capability (independent of the engines) in order to achieve the speeds and ranges necessary to hit warp speed targets. Consequently, the engineers had to disable this capability to prevent disruption of the time warp. This in turn drastically reduced the range and effectiveness of the Kongo's weapons.

(There is evidence of such a tactical warp capability in the description of Nova Cannons. They are described as projecting deuterium nuclei at a target "via a trans-light warp")

If this is true than it's possible some "modern" weapons existed in the sub-light era but operated at drastically reduced range and effectiveness (due to a lack of this tactical warp capability) and without the ability to hit warp speed targets (which requires advanced targeting systems).

Thus the Vulcans could have phaser-1 but their phasers would be sublight weapons with range and damage calculated in sub-light hexes.

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 10:08 pm: Edit

The Kongo scenario has no bearing. The Kongo was trying to tread as lightly as possible, and to not break time. It scaled everything down to have as little impact as possible while staying alive. A NTW ship with phasers has no need to do that, so it doesn't apply as a precedent.

Shawn,

We have no idea what Q rules will look like. So, we can only work with what we have. And we know the rules we have do work at sublight, so it provides a common framework we can work with. Rather than working in the unknown, where either of us can ensure we tweak the imaginary rules to fit the assumptions we want, I am working with the rules we have.

Using those rules, we know that non-warp-targeted lasers will be significantly worse than warp-targeted lasers (which have a max range of 2). And atomic missiles without warp assist will be incredibly slow. Putting that together, we can easily see that an NTW ship with phaser-1s is killing NTW ships without phaser-1s. Heck, we can even play it out using ships we have to show it out.

Also, a phaser-1 is a phaser-1. Whether a Q hex is 1000 km, 10,000 km, or 100,000 km, it's "one hex" range is still 100,000 km. For there to be any verisimilitude at all, a phaser-1 has to be a phaser-1. Otherwise it is not a phaser-1.

As for the history, I guess the Vulcans were just uninterested in taking advantage of the abilities. So, it is what it is.

For the Warlike-Vulcans, I guess their pre-Y62 ships were different, because they would have massively exploited their advantage. So, I'll just assume that was one unstated difference to the history. I'll assume those two ships had proto-phasers of some kind prior to Y71.

Heh. Now I have a new alternative history: the Vulcans were able to resolve their internal differences without refugees. So they do get phaser-1s and special sensors in Y1, but were ambitious enough to fully take advantage of it. How far can they go in 60 years?

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Monday, September 13, 2021 - 10:44 pm: Edit

Mike,

I'm under no illusion that the Kongo scenario is designed as it is for any other reason than to facilitate ease of play and a good story. However, it is history (even if the scenario has yet to be updated for the current edition) so I think it's legitimate to speculate on an "in universe" reason why the range of the Kongo's weapons was so drastically reduced.

Any need for the Kongo to "tread lightly" was already covered by the rule requiring it to use non-violent combat (which drastically reduces crew casaulties). It certainly would not have been in the Kongo's interest to dilute its firepower any further (which would be more likely to cost lives than to save them).

And this speculation is not based solely on the scenario. Clearly all direct fire tactical warp era weapons incorporate some sort of warp speed capability or they wouldn't be able to hit objects moving at the speeds and distances that they do. I'm speculating that they could function without that capability but at the cost of drastically reduced range (which there is no reason to do unless you either have not yet discovered tactical warp or you happen to be waiting to enter an unstable time warp while under fire).

By Mike West (Mjwest) on Tuesday, September 14, 2021 - 10:16 am: Edit

Again, and this is about as simple as I can explain it, a phaser-1 that has drastically reduced range, is not a phaser-1. (Sure, it can be voluntarily reduced, like down-firing as a Ph-3 or "painting" targets for no damage. That's different.) Regardless of the reason, it just isn't a phaser-1 anymore. For example, if you give a phaser-1 cheap targeting computers, it is no longer a phaser-1; it is a phaser-2. So, even though they are literally the same equipment except for one piece, it is still no longer a phaser-1. If you impose whatever technobabble you desire onto a phaser-1 to limit its ability to fit your new game system, it is no longer a phaser-1.

So, it's either a phaser-1 or it is not a phaser-1. SPP is now on record for saying it is a phaser-1. We know how a phaser-1 works. So, there we are.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Tuesday, September 14, 2021 - 02:56 pm: Edit

Lots of weapons have different capabilities in different eras while still being called the same weapon.

EY photons can't be overloaded but we still call them photons because they still (in part) use the same chart, arming procedure, etc.

Plasma torpedos gain significant new abilities with time (enveloping, shotgun, ECM plasma, sabot) but are still considered the same weapon within each size class.

The NTW phaser-1 would (as I propose it) have drastically reduced range (in absolute terms) but would still be a phaser-1 because it would use the same weapons table, arming procedure, etc. (The conceit being that the reduction in capabilities is proportionate to the change in game scale between the sub-light and main game so doesn't require any change to the charts or rules).

They would also be the same weapon by virtue of the fact that a NTW phaser-1 could fire as a standard phaser-1 post-Y62 (just as other weapons gain capabilities in specific years) if the empire has developed tactical warp and warp-targeting.

By MarkSHoyle (Bolo) on Tuesday, September 14, 2021 - 06:10 pm: Edit

Lots of weapons have different capabilities in different eras while still being called the same weapon.

Doesn't even have to be different ERAs, it's stated in different places about phasers, such and such Empire uses a weapon that operates like Phaser-1/2 etc.....

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Wednesday, September 15, 2021 - 06:19 pm: Edit

If some warp-speed weapons had sub-light equivalents that would alleviate the need to invent as many new sub-light weapons for Module Q.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Wednesday, September 15, 2021 - 10:49 pm: Edit

Douglas:

Disruptors clearly function in sublight settings. In the show Eminiar (a nation that was not warp capable) used these weapons. Whether or not they were invented at the time of Q is not obvious, but they seem like very simple weapons that could plausibly be discovered multiple times by multiple civilisations, and maybe have some level of ubiquity.

Plasma weapons are a no go, since as far as I can tell they only appear (in bolt-only form no less) in Y66. Doesn't rule out pre-plasma torpedoes. It's possible that plasma bolts pre-date Y66, but everything with "bolted" in its name has that deployment date. There's nothing definitive, but it seems implied since earlier Romulans fought with lasers and atomic missiles.

There aren't any drones until Y65 (and they'd be basically direct fire weapons for the brief period the Klingons and Kzinti fight with them in Q), but atomic missiles are very similar, and can travel 2c due to warp boosters by the end of the era. I can see drone-like speed increments as the era progresses, maybe starting at 8, then at a certain year going 16, another year 32, then another year 64 (Assuming c is 32, if c is a different number then these numbers would be different too. Note: absolutely nobody said c was 32, and in the OG Q rules I think c was 6). We also don't have to be limited to one type of atomic missile.

Phaser-1s are Vulcan-only. Other phasers are potentially on the table though, and it's interesting to think that in this era they'd basically be treated like heavy weapons. Imagine a destroyer with a single ph-3 in the FA arc.

For photons the Y62 timeline entry lists photons, phasers, transporters, and W-tractors as being "new technology." This doesn't mean photons aren't available in Q, but they would have to at the very least still be "new" in Y62. Maybe they have a more primitive sublight predecessor? Maybe a seeking plasma-like sublight torpedo when armed with non-warp energy, and a direct fire version when armed with warp via a couple AWRs on ships specifically designed to carry AWRs for that exact purpose?

S-tractors are Y5. It would be possible to have an intermediary tractor between Y5 and the W era, but Romulans couldn't get it. Might be best to just have S-tractors.

For NSMs, depending on how you read YR4.3 from module Y1 the Romulans might have had them since Y20. In "Balance of Terror" the Romulans described their mine as being improvised from an old style atomic missile. I take this to mean that Q could (assuming balance works) have something like a missile-based NSM. Maybe Romulan ships in this era are built around mega NSM-equivalent atomic missile launchers similar to how the WB is built around the plasma-R?

No transporters = no T-bombs, although small mines and mega missiles are not ruled out a priori.

No word whatsoever as to when the nova cannon entered service. There's no reason it or a primitive predecessor couldn't have existed in Q. Depending on how you read YR9.0 in module Y1, you could take it to mean that no weapons from the W era existed in the Q era for Hydran ships.

Hydran hellguns are W era and do not exist in the Q era.

Hydran ships from this era are supposed to be terrible.

No word on the quantum cannon's first deployment. Module Y2 says the QWT was from an upgrade that became available in Y70. I suspect the quantum cannon could be a Q era weapon. At least late Q.

No word on the disruptor cannon's first deployment.

The ISC empires have no word as to when any of their weapons were developed. Of note is that Q lasted from Y-175 to Y10 for the ISC empires.

That's everything I can gather from the early years modules. Any of the weapons not definitively from an later era could be represented in Q. I think most probably shouldn't though. A lot of these are really powerful or require a lot of power. Everything depends on the rest of the system though. If c is a large number (like 32) then long ranges don't matter as much as if c was a small number (like 6). There are so many variables the balance point could be set anywhere and worked from there.

By Douglas Saldana (Dsal) on Thursday, September 16, 2021 - 12:44 am: Edit

Shawn:

Some comments (assuming Commander's Edition rules as a starting point):

I had disruptors in mind since they are a pretty simple weapon that do just slightly more damage than atomic missiles. While they are cheap to arm in the main era they are expensive for a sublight ship to arm considering you could power 8 lasers for the cost of arming one disruptor.

I agree it's clear there was no seeking plasma (since the Feds had never seen it before the 2nd Romulan War) but I recall reading somewhere that Warbirds are practically built around the plasma weapon and the Y1 background says that the design of the Warbird changed little between Y20 and Y170 which suggests that a plasma weapon of some sort has always been a part of the design. This would be consistent with the Warbirds being described as harder to build than the Hawks.

YR4.4A implies that the original Hawks might have had a non-plasma weapon before replacing them with plasma bolts so I could see the Romulan fleet consisting mostly of atomic missle armed Hawks serving as escorts for a backbone of bolt armed Warbirds. This is consistent with the Romulans reliance on "terror" weapons (Plasma-R, Maulers, Cloaking Devices, Nuclear Space Mines) which I'm guessing they carried over from the NTW-era.

So far there doesn't seem to be much that distinguishes atomic missles from drones except that the Y-era atomic missles had limited firing arcs which was not a limitation in the old Q-rules. I think everyone would like to see more types of atomic missles but I wouldn't model them too closely on drones or necessarilly have them follow the same technological progression. There are also references to the Andorians having "targonite" warheads in the NTW-era which are presumeably the forerunners of the drones they used in the Early Years so perhaps "drones" existed along side "missles" whatever the difference between them might be.

I would favor restricting phasers to the Vulcans since the background makes a big deal of the Vulcans having them and I don't think we should be upstaging the centrality of lasers in this era. I agree a phaser is basically a heavy weapon in this era (and costs 4 times as much to arm as a laser).

Photons seem unlikely since they are armed with tactical warp power but I agree it is possible that Auxillary Warp Reactors might have been in service before Tactial Warp Engines (though you would need to explain why they fell out of use in favor of APR). If so, I think they would be strictly Terran weapons since it's clear that the other Federation members didn't adopt photons until much later.

YG7.61 severely limits what a sub-light tractor can do but when it says that S-tractors "cannot be used to tractor missiles or drones" I think this rule had warp speed targets in mind so perhaps there is some wiggle room on the sublight scale.

A relationship between Nuclear Space Mines and Atomic Missles seems doubtful given that one is an area effect weapon and the other is not, but I will look into the dialogue you mentioned. An idea I have considered (and I think you might have mentioned before) is that Nuclear Space Mines might have a much greater blast radius on the sublight scale (if they retained even a fraction of their normal blast radius) which would make them interesting "terror" weapons (though potentially a threat to friendly ships as well as the enemy).

No transporters, no t-bombs, makes sense.

Don't really have an opinion on the Nova Cannon. Agree Hellguns would be impossible.

YR18.2 says the Paravians used "Quantam Blasters" in the Q-era which were the predecessors to the "Quantam Cannons" used by their Early Year sublight ships.

Worry Disruptor Cannon might be too powerful for the Q era (but again very expensive to arm). Heel Nippers would obviously be useless against sublight ships.

I don't recall much of the ISC background offhand so can't comment on that now.

I agree the goal is not to replicate every Y-era weapon into the Q-era but I think some continuity in technological evolution (in which sub-light weapons are adapted into warp-speed weapons) is plausible and we should take advantage of that.

By Shawn Gordon (Avrolancaster) on Monday, October 04, 2021 - 04:09 pm: Edit

I'm working on a Q experiment currently.
I doubt it's going to go anywhere, but I have a couple of questions:

1) Is there some formula for how much crew a ship gets? Something like 1 crew per phaser, 1 per lab, 1 per 5 hull, etc? If there is, is it published somewhere?

2) Let's say I came up with a prototype Q system, is there a way to ask a couple of people for input and share the prototype with them without running afoul of the ADB rules?