That should be a term paper.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Monday, December 14, 2020 - 01:37 am: Edit

Alan, while everything you mentioned about minefields is true, the most it does is allow time for the Tholians to reinforce their webs to high strength in relative safety. Against a patient attacker in an extended campaign scenario situation, the wedding cake so defended by webs would more likely have the automatic mines detected and swept before the outer web would be dealt with.

With such a minefield, there's no rush to hit the reinforcing ships inside the outer web as that would be too much to try to deal with using a single battle force. Instead, an attacker would utilize his ships in sweeping mines farthest first. As the Tholians are not great seeking weapon users, the attacker could use wild weasels to sweep mines, and (J1.422) to replace those shuttles to their numerical limit. Numerous ships could each attempt sweeping its own single mine simultaneously, possibly from the same or adjacent shield facings, using mid-turn speed changes and shield reinforcement, and then withdraw to repair their shields and systems to their limits.

Similar can be said about the buzz saw, but as much of the minefield will be concentrated within the channels, the defenders will have an easier time dealing the with attacker's mine sweeping efforts. Tholian ships can easily position themselves safely 4 hexes away from the entrance to shoot attackers, and if they want to be used as bait they can enter a web strand to coax an attacker to enter a full strength web strand to attempt a shot and a (G10.562) extraction.

I agree with SVC. That should be a term paper.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, December 24, 2020 - 02:44 am: Edit

SVC and John Christiansen;

Thanks for your comments about submitting my Tholian minefield thoughts as a term paper. I meant to reply earlier, but got distracted. A number of months ago I submitted several term papers having to do with various aspects of Tholian web defense. Two of those have now been published in Captain's Logs and I believe a couple more are still "on file" for possible inclusion in later CLs. Several of those term papers did discuss aspects of Tholian minefields but I no longer recall exactly what I said. So a term paper based on my 13 December post would at least partailly overlap with things I have alreay submitted.

But none of those already-submitted term papers really dealt exclusively with minefields; the mines were just part of a paper primarily about some other aspect of web defense. So maybe it would be worthwhile for me to try to put together some sort of "optimized Tholian minefield" paper, which would partially overlap some already-submitted material but would also include some points I'm pretty sure I haven't discussed yet; and then let SVC, SPP, and any other evaluators determine which papers were most appropriate for publication.


One final point about my preference for wedding cake over buzz saw; a point that is more strategic and even... philosophical... than it is tactical. The Tholians have easily the best defensive technology of any empire but they are severely resource-constrained. They simply can't field many ships compared to the other empires and have to make hard choices about what to build. Now consider three basic classes of Tholian units; mobile units (ships, PFs, fighters), bases, mines.

A mobile unit can cover a lot of territory. It can patrol space near its base to engage raiders or pirates that aren't attacking the base itself but are harrassing a mining colony or convoy. It can be re-deployed from the Klingon front to the Romulan front if a change in the strategic situation makes that desirable. It can even take the fight into enemy territory, though the severely limited Tholian strategic resources mean this will be done only in very rare circumstances. But it's technologically possible, at least. Mobile units are strategically the most flexible because the least localized in their effect.

Bases are necessary for logistic support of the mobile units. But in addition to that, their special sensors can survey vast volumes of space to keep the Tholians informed of enemy actions. So they can influence events far beyond the range of their weapons.

Minefields can be very effective for defending a fixed position, but that's really all they do. They are the most localized of all. If the Klingon front is quiet (maybe the Hydrans have just launched a drive to re-take Hydrax, forcing the Klingons to re-deploy strong forces to that front) but the Romulans are very active, the Tholians can send ships from the Klingon front to strengthen their anti-Romulan forces. And because Tholian space is so compact, bases on the Klingon front can be used to repair ships battle-damaged on the Romulan front. But minefields around bases on the Klingon front... are really kind of useless against the Romulans.

And buzz-saws need minefields to be viable. (In theory the Tholians could deploy a buzz-saw with no mines as a bluff... but what a terrible risk! If an enemy reconnaisance revealed the base actually had no minefield the attackers could take it comparatively cheaply.) But a wedding cake, even with no mines, is still a nasty proposition for the enemy so long as the Tholians have ships (and eventually PFs) to support the outer rings. A minefield makes it even tougher. But it doesn't need the minefield to anything like the extent the buzz-saw does. So in a strategic sense I, as a Tholian, would rather spend a lower share of my overall resources on mines and more on ships/fighter/PFs. I can send the latter to wherever they are most needed. The minefield... stays where it is.

This, of course, is irrelevant in an S8 scenario with no past and no future. But I think it's part of the reason why, even in a single scenario, I have a philosophical preference for a wedding cake. How strongly that philosophical preference would weigh on me if I believed the buzz-saw to be superior tactically, I can't say. But I believe I have made clear I also prefer the wedding cake for tactical reasons.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, December 24, 2020 - 07:23 pm: Edit

There was also a Rocky Road term paper in an early CL about adding asteroids in the middle layer with P4 GBs on them for more punch.

Here's a question, when are those bases found (since they do have shields but what if they aren't on for deception purposes)??

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, December 25, 2020 - 12:51 pm: Edit

Not an official answer, but in my unsolicited opinion, any phaser 4 Ground Bases found would not be unsupported. At best, you might have selected elements of a planetary defense battalion.

A 2 channel buzz saw web might get by with only 1 phaser 4 GB, but doing so makes it a cheap kill as a single GB alone in its own power grid has a tiny shield and little power available for things other than powering its phasers. (Shields, electronic warfare, etc.)

Even if there were three other GB’s in a single power grid (say a Hanger plus fighters, a early warning station and a power boost ) it still is under powered and vulnerable to damage.

Plus, any such ground bases you deploy on asteroids would not have the benefits of an atmosphere that would be found on a M class world.

As Alan Trevor pointed out earlier comments referring to wedding cake web, if you placed a full PDB (planetary defense battalion) on asteroids inside the second layer of a wedding cake web you would have three phaser 4 GBs plus a garrison GB, 1 large or 2 small fighter GBs, 1 or 2 Early warning GBs, and any of several other Optional GBs (power boost, PF GB , even a science Outpost GB if added labs would be needed or desired.)

YMMV.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Friday, December 25, 2020 - 09:18 pm: Edit

Jeff, note that large asteroids can only hold one GB [one medium limit - (P3.4)] so that GB would be unsupported (during combat)...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, December 25, 2020 - 11:40 pm: Edit

Stewart, I was trying to point out that even a 4 GB power grid is still vulnerable.

Yes, Large Asteroids are limited to one GB, the point is, even if a small planetoid could be found, it would still be vulnerable to destruction.

I was trying to be polite. Single GB / phaser 4 GB / Asteroid placement is a waste of resources as the assets are too vulnerable to enemy fire.

In your own statement above, you recognized the danger by specifically calling for deception tactics. (It was the part about not powering shields.)

Even granting that large Asteroids can have a single GB, having a full PDB deployed( listed above) means having fighters (possibly PFs depending on the year specified), Electronic Warfare support, even labs if the suggested science outpost is present. The one advantage is each Asteroid/ GB would have to be attacked separately.

Tricky, if used in a wedding cake web.

Less effective, if placed in a buzz saw web.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, December 26, 2020 - 08:10 am: Edit

I went and looked at the firing arcs and such of placing a phaser 4 on the middle ring asteroids of a wedding cake. Depending on were the ship enters the outer web is just terrifying and just out side the web is about as bad. One or more can get range 3. For the cost Oh Yes... give them to me says the thoilian

By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Saturday, December 26, 2020 - 01:40 pm: Edit

Nah. Just trade some stuff with the Jindos and get some old rock ships. Mount P4 in there. Armor is perfect for this use.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, December 26, 2020 - 05:40 pm: Edit

NO as the attacker. You buy a Hidden Jindo rock ship that is in the wedding cake

Yup right in the middle of a attack the Jindo goes attack....

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Saturday, December 26, 2020 - 07:46 pm: Edit

I'm pretty sure it's not legal to mount phaser-IVs (or any other small ground base) on an asteroid ship.

By wayne douglas power (Wayne) on Saturday, December 26, 2020 - 07:58 pm: Edit

Jindarians can not place ground bases on an Asteroid ship.
You can place ground bases on a Large asteroid.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Monday, April 12, 2021 - 11:33 am: Edit

This is a somewhat belated continuation of an earlier discussion in the Module RM81 Tholian Home Galaxy. I am posting additional comments here to avoid further highjacking that thread.

There was a comment by one of the posters about a "Nightmare Weapon Combo" if the Tholians were somehow able to integrate Hydran weapons. I replied that in my opinion the real "Nightmare Weapon Combo" was web plus a robust seeking weapon capability; and that I had previously thought about posting some term papers about wedding cake defense if a seeking weapon-using ally were part of the web defense force. (Historically, Gorns and Kzinti did operate in Tholian space during Operation Nutcracker. And of course the situation could arise during a multip-player campaign.)

One of the other posters mentioned the difficulty of using allied ships in web defense and asked whether the advantages of seeking weapons was enough to justify the disadvantages.

If the Tholians themselves had a robust seeking weapon capability, either drones or plasma, but on Tholian hulls (able to move through web, lay or reinforce web, able to fire phasers through web) such ships would be nightmarishly effective in wedding cake defense. But this post will address using seeking weapon-armed allies in a web defense.

If you are playing an S8 BPV-based scenario of a Tholian base defense, it may not be worth it. Every Tholian web-generator-equipped ship you buy keeps the webs up longer, meaning more turns of fire for the phaser-IVs. But as previously noted, a "combined defense" situation could still occur in a historical (Operation Nutcracker) scenario, or in a player campaign. So I think it's worthwhile looking at how seeking weapons contribute to a weddig cake defense.

The key point is that seeking weapons move through web like non-Tholian ships. They need to expend movement points equal to the strength of the web in a period of 32 consecutive impulses. So a medium speed drone would spend one full turn stuck in a strength-20 web, then egress the other side. For plasma torpedoes, there is the additional issue that every impulse trapped in the web counts as one hex for reducing the warhead strength. So if a plasma torpedo is fired through a strength-20 web, its warhead strength when it reaches the target will be greatly weakened even if the actual range from launch to impact is only a couple of hexes. This indicates a possible tactic for integrating allies into a wedding cake defense; the outer web ring is at full strength to trap the attacking ships while the allies are behind the "middle" ring, which is very weak (but not strength-zero). The allies cannot use their direct fire weapons while the attckers are trapped on the oute ring. But they are likewise safe from enemy fire and can contribute fire from their seeking weapons. Note that while the weak middle ring will block the attacker's direct fire weapons, it would not stop their seeking weapons. But those weapons are trapped by the full strength outer ring. And the full strength outer ring does nothing to hinder the ally's seeking weapons, since the target is in that outer ring and web doesn't interfere with moving into the web hex.

A downside is that if the attckers do survive long enough to get through the outer ring, the middle ring will not hold them. They will blitz through it in a couple of impulses to assault the base itself. The defender must carefully consider whether the advantage of enabling the allied seeking weapons to contribute to the outer ring fight is worth this risk.

Assuming the defender decides to use this tactic, there are a number of tricks he can use to maximize the effect of the seeking weapons. I will examine some of these in more detail in later posts. For now, I will just address one; scatter-packs.

In open space, one difficulty in using scatter-packs is that the enemy may destroy it before the eight-impulse delay has elapsed. But in wedding cake defense, the Kzinti (or Fed, or, heck, Klingon in a (non-historical, obviously), campaign) could lauuch the scatter pack at speed-zero. The middle web ring protects it from enemy fire until the delay period expires and the drones are released. The Kzinti then recovers the scatter-pack and can re-arm it and do the same thing again. In open space the scatter-pack may not survive to release its drones even once. In a wedding cake defense it may do so multiple times. Also, once the scatter-pack's drones are gone, whether because they have been destroyed or have hit the target, the Kzinti's drone control channels are freed up and the Kzinti can launch from its racks.

Tholian suicide shuttles can freely move through web, of course. But there won't usually be enought of them to get through the defensive fire. But if the Klingons have exhausted their defensive fire (and perhaps tractor beams) dealing with Kzinti drones, those Tholian suicide shuttles may have a free path to the target.

The web also complicates the attacker's drone defense in several ways. Because the attacker must threaten all sides of the web, only a small portion of the fleet's total defensive firepower can be used against the drones. A drone wave that might be easily shot down in open space might overwhelm the defenses of the very limited number of ships that could engage them in a web assault, allowing multiple hits. The defender could launch a wild weasel, even if trapped in a web. But the weasel will stay in the launching ship's hex so the ship will at least take collateral damage.

Also, the threat of a drone wave and subsequent employment of a weasel could delay the ship's escape from the web. Consider the following situation. The Klingons have assaulted a web in force and driven the defending Tholians back behind the middle ring. There are too many Klingons for the Tholians to kill or cripple them all before the web decays to strength-31, at which point the Klingons could advance to the middle ring. Kzinti allies launch a massive drone wave at the most threatening Klingon, too large to defeat with defensive fire. The Klingon is forced to emergency decelerate and launch a weasel. (If it were generating 31 movement points it would void the weasel, even if it weren't actually moving any hexes because of the web.) But it will then take several turns for the ship to accelerate back up to a speed from which it could escape the web, even if the web had decayed below strength-31. This in turn allows the Tholian to engage other targets, as this one won't be a threat for another three turns, or so. The threat of the scatter-pack buys additional turns of phaser fire (including phaser-IVs from the base), even if the drones themselves are neutralized.

Consider finally that the combination of a weak middle ring and a massive drone wave may actually enable the Kzinti to use its direct fire weapons. The Klingon ships expend their weaponry shooting down drones (or deactivate the fire control to launch the weasel). The Kzinti follows up by moving onto the weak middle ring to target the Klingon with phasers and overloaded disruptors. Because the middle ring is so weak, the Kzinti can then move back behind it before the Klingon weapons are available. Tholians could also take advantage of this to move onto the middle ring to use their heavy weapons.

This highlights some of the ways a drone-armed ally, coupled with a strong outer but weak middle ring, can cause massive problems to an attacker attempting to assault a wedding cake. In a subsequent post (probably in a few days) I will discuss some plasma torpedo issues.

By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Friday, April 16, 2021 - 07:22 pm: Edit

We are talking Tholian tactics here.

What about PCs vs Disr.

The PC has a lower to hit ratio then the Disr. It does fire twice a turn. However getting in that second shot can be tough. The amount of damage scored is close per hit. The Disr hit more often unless the second shot works. That seems to even the damage out. It some cases giving the PC a small advantage in damage scored. However broken over different shields.

Power cost for a DISR vs PC is a bit different.
Disr is 2 for a standard and 4 for overload.

A PC is 2 for standard with 1 for the second shot in a turn. 3 for a overload and can fire a second standard for 1. can have up to 5 points loaded. So can fire a standard shot close and fire a second overload for 5 pts. The PC can also be held for 1/2 the energy in the PC. Also the PC draws from the capacitor when fired so with 3 points loaded. If the enemy gets into overload range you can fire a overload shot. However if the enemy turns off you can still fire standards.

Making the PC more flexible at the cost of being less accurate then a DISR.

How does this work with Tholians?

Well for one the Tholians can fire a first PC shot as they cast WEB. To either stop themselves from moving forward or to slow down are force the others to turn. In all cases keeping the range open and allowing the PCs to Cycle and get that second shot in.

IN wed defense the PC does not have to be overloaded by BTTYs or the power wasted as in the case of DISRs (4 for overloads) 3 points or even better 2.5 holding 5 in the capacitor. Means that a ship can sit behind the web. Having more power to add to the web. Can slip out fire a PC shot and slip back behind the web and still have overloads to fire at ships crashing the web. Every one knows that even 1 point of power can be very useful. In this case you get 1 or 1.5 per tube and still have your BTTYs available for other things.

Then there is the fact that the inaccuracy of the PC in web defense is a none issue as you fire at point blank or 2 hex range. As well as there will be time for the PCs to cycle as the target is not going any were. This could take down two shields a turn on ships stuck in web over just one per turn with DISRs.

Add a few Seltorians in your web defense. Cripple a ship in the web or even damage it. Then send over the BUGS. Capture that ship

Any ideas on this is appreciated.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, April 16, 2021 - 08:52 pm: Edit

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Add a few Seltorians in your web defense.

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By Gregory S Flusche (Vandar) on Saturday, April 17, 2021 - 07:22 pm: Edit

I put in Seltorians as they would be allowed in the home galaxy. Even adding one Hydran Ranger in a web defense could be nasty.

I was going with Historical settings with that.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Sunday, April 18, 2021 - 11:27 pm: Edit

Gregory,

Fair enough. Since the immediately preceeding post was my discussion of integrating drone-users into a wedding cake defense, and since your post did imply a comparison of the PC and the Disruptor (and of course the Tholians didn't have disruptors in their home galaxy), I was thinking in terms of the Alpha sector (perhaps in some non-historical campaign with free alliances, in which the Selt player decided to ally with the Tholian player).

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Wednesday, March 02, 2022 - 12:27 pm: Edit

Who Are Tholians Afraid Of?

There hasn't been much SFB tactical discussion on this site recently, so I thought I would try to start another one. And since I've posted some thoughts about what empires might be particularly good allies for Tholian base defense, I decided to post here about which empires were best suited (or at least... least badly suited) for assaulting Tholian defenses.

Some basic assumptions...
1. I'm looking at the late-GW / ISC "Pacification" / Andro Invasion period, when all empires had their "good stuff"; X-ships, fast drones, plasma-sabot, PFs, megafighters, etc.
2. I'm only looking at "historical" units that actually existed within the SFU, EXCEPT that I'm assuming the Selts became well-enough established in Alpha that they have dreadnoughts and X-ships available, so long as an official ADB-created SSD exists for the ship. Selts without X-ships or dreadnoughts would have an awfully hard time against Tholians who can field these ship types. How would the Selts even get to the base in the first place if the assault force were intercepted by a Tholian X-squadron?
3. I'm just looking at technology comparisons and RPS considerations. Obviously an empire like the Klingons, if they could ever concentrate their full strength against the Tholians, could eventually overwhelm them by weight of numbers. But I don't consider the Klingon technology particularly well suited for assaulting a wedding cake and the Klingons would take hideous losses in the process.

With these assumptions, who are the Tholian afraid of? While the Seltorians are the obvious answer, I actually consider them only the third most dangerous opponent. I will cover them in reverse order; 3) Seltorians, 2) Hydrans, 1) (by a large margin) Andromedans. And there's a "wild card" possibility that might be a threat under some specific conditions, the Jindarians.

3) Seltorians
In this galaxy, the Tholians are much better able to defend their bases against Seltorian assault than was the case in M81. There are several reasons for this but I want to concentrate (for now) on two; PFs and X-ships.

PFs - The Seltorian PFs are very good. I regard the Tholians as slightly better, but it is close. An "open space" fight between Tholian and Seltorian flotillas will, in my opinion, probably end in Tholian victory. But their won't be too much left of the Tholian flotilla at the end. But Tholian PFs are vastly more useful at defending wedding cakes than Seltorian PFs are at assaulting them. This is because Tholian PFs can carry web generators in place of their phaser-3s (two per flotilla - but the Tholians can also carry "casual" Arachnid-PWs on mech links for their supporting ships) but no Seltorian PF is allowed to carry a web breaker. Adding a Tholian flotilla to the defending force greatly increases the Tholian ability to reinforce web, while adding a Seltorian flotilla to the assault force does nothing to improve the Selt ability to break the web.

And note that even with only two -W models per flotilla, the Tholians can form two pinwheels around them and (except for the housekeeping costs and energy required to hold the pinwheel together) reinforce the web with the energy of a full flotilla (which is a lot more reinforcing energy than even a dreadnought or X-cruiser can supply).

Of course, since pinwheels can only move by impulse power, it's much easier for the attackers to dive into the outer web ring and kill them, than it would be if the PFs were maneuvering freely. But this does still require the Seltorians to dive into the web, itself. If the Tholian is careful in setting up the wedding cake, it will be impossible to get firing position on the pinwheel without first engaging multiple mines. Also, only Seltorian ships actually in the web will be able to shoot at the pinwheel, while they will be shot at by the pinwheel plus the base and other Tholian ships/fighters behind the middle ring. And they must put units into the outer web ring sufficient to kill the pinwheel after having some weapons strippped away by mines and pre-emptive fire. So destroying a three-PF pinwheel will cost the Seltorians much more than that.

X-ships - The web breaker has a special X-tech mode for engaging webs anchored by Tholian ships, but it is useless against globular web. And an X-ship doesn't gain any extra web breakers. But a Seltorian X-ship does gain one advantage (and arguably a second one) allowing it to break web faster than a standard-tech ship of the same size. X-ships can gain a -1 DRM if they have more ECCM than the target has ECM. I can find nothing in the rules that prevents using this against web. So in general a Selt CAX will be firing its web web breakers at -1 comapred to the CA, doing (depending on range) approximately 1²/₃ more degradation per shot, or 3¹/₃ more degradation in total. But upgrading one Tholian PC to a PCX (which is much cheaper than upgrading a CA to a CAX) provides five extra points of power, which in this time period counters 10 points of degradation. In other words, the upgrading a single PC to PCX provides enough extra power to counter three Seltorian CAs upgraded to CAXs, assuming the ships stay at the same range.

The second web breaking advantage Seltorian X-ships may have is that their better shields, plus more power for reinforcement, may allow them to operate closer to the outer ring than standard tech ships could. But this, too, can be more easily offset by Tholian X-ships, which will have more phasers than their standard tech counterparts. The humble PC not only picks up 5 extra power when it converts to PCX, it also picks up two extra phasers. So it could put five more points on power into web reinforcement (countering 10 degradation) or put three more points into reinforcement (countering (six degradation) and also fire two additional phasers, which ever the Tholian thinks is most advantageous. And if the Selt CAX is using ECCM to gain a -1 DRM against the web, Tholian X-ships may be using ECCM to gain a -1 DRM against the Selt ship (in addition to their larger number of phasers).

There are many ways this could play out, depending on specific forces and situation. But in general I think the introduction of X-tech strengthens Tholian web defense much more effectively than it strengthens Seltorian web breaking capabilities. And that (along with the previously discussed PFs) is why I think, from a purely technological aspect, Tholians are mush better at protecting their bases from Selts in Alpha than they were in M81, and why despite their web breakers, the Seltorians only rank as third scariest attacker.

NEXT... Why the Hydrans, despite being a normal Alpha empire without specific anti-web technology, are the scariest of all Alpha empires in a web assault, and in my opinion scarier than the Seltorians (though not the Andros). Tune in tommorrow, same Bat Time, same Bat channel.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Wednesday, March 02, 2022 - 01:40 pm: Edit

I'd say definitely Andros. Web isn't that great when your enemy can teleport past it.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Wednesday, March 02, 2022 - 09:45 pm: Edit

What about the Klingons driving remote piloted Z-YCs? They can get them stuck in the Web near where there might be a Tholian ship coming to reinforce the web, and fire a salvo of four Type I drones at it.

Even after that, they can remain a pretty perpetual annoyance with their Phaser-3s. As long as they're not using Booster Packs, they'll still be pretty tough annoyances.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, March 03, 2022 - 09:48 am: Edit

Jeff,

I'm afraid that doesn't work... for multiple reasons.

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They can get them stuck in the Web near where there might be a Tholian ship coming to reinforce the web...

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... and fire a salvo of four Type I drones at it.

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... remain a pretty perpetual annoyance with their Phaser-3s.

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By Mike Grafton (Mike_Grafton) on Thursday, March 03, 2022 - 11:15 am: Edit

1) the ZYCs get crippled from fire behind the next ring. 2 or three Phaser ones and they are done for.

2) The drones won't get out of the web until much too late.

By Jeff Anderson (Jga) on Thursday, March 03, 2022 - 11:44 am: Edit

Bad ideas get discussed here too.

It was a thought; nothing more.

By Ginger McMurray (Gingermcmurray) on Thursday, March 03, 2022 - 12:04 pm: Edit

"Bad ideas get discussed here too. "

I see you're an avid reader of my posts. ;)

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Thursday, March 03, 2022 - 11:51 pm: Edit

2) Hydrans
Seltorians can use their web breakers to try to tear down web from a distance (though as I discuss above, the Tholians are better at countering that in this galaxy than they were in M81) and Andros can use the displacement device to jump over a web strand (though only one strand per jump). For the other empires that were historically active in Alpha, assaulting a prepared Tholian defense is a numbers game. The assaulting empire must have enough units to threaten all six sides of the web ring, and maintain the threat (in the face of attrition from Tholian phasers and mines) long enough for the web to deteriorate to the point where attacking units can get through it to reach the middle ring (where they have to repeat the process).

The Hydrans are better at this than any other Alpha empire due to a combination of two factors; the sheer number of fighters they can deploy and the short range firepower of those fighters. A Klingon ZYC in the web will inflict an average of 7¹/₃ points of damage per turn against an adjacent Tholian reinforcing the web. (It can do a bit better on a short term basis using phaser pods (but only one per fighter) or Swordfish Drones (expensive and limited availability), but 7¹/₃ points is what the ZYC can sustain, long term. By comparison, a Stinger-2 will average 27¹/₃ points against an adjacent Tholian for two turns (three turns if a megafighter) and then still average 14²/₃ points per turn after the fusion beams are exhausted.

And the Hydran force may easily contain more than 100 fighters.

And the Ranger-class cruisers that carried most of them are also devastatingly powerful at the short ranges at which a wedding cake assault is conducted,

Won't be able to finish the Hydran section tonight due to pesky "real life".

More tomorrow.